Your opinion on these DAWs

[macstatic]

I don't have any prior experience with DAWs but want to get started and would like to hear your opinion on various DAWs that I already have, in addition to what else is out there.

I have a lot of hardware gear (synths, drum machines etc) and first of all I need something to record those instruments to individual tracks, then apply effects and edit within the DAW. In time I will probably dabble into the softsynth territory as well, but for now it's mostly recording and editing. It also has to have MIDI capabilities, for syncing to an external MIDI sequencer or having its own MIDI sequencer built-in.

I have (legal) licenses for several DAWs, through hardware bundles and free magazine offerings and wonder if any of these are worth getting into:

Tracktion Waveform 10
Tracktion T7 free
Presonus Studio One 3
Bitwig Studio 2.4
Ableton Live Lite 10

I also have Garageband 10 as I'm a Mac user, but as far as I know there's no MIDI sync there. My audio interface is a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (1st generation).

What do you suggest I invest my time into learning and why?
I've played around a little with them all, but most of them (except Garageband) appear quite complex and don't make much sense to me, and I fear trying to understand them all will take an awful lot of time.

 

[theluggage]

I've played around a little with them all, but most of them (except Garageband) appear quite complex and don't make much sense to me, and I fear trying to understand them all will take an awful lot of time.

...sad truth is that they are quite complex and take an awful lot of time to learn (speaking as definitely a non-expert here).

Logic Pro is the only one I've used much. You should certainly add Logic Pro X to the list because:

+ Although there's still a lot to learn, it starts out very similar to GarageBand and migrating projects is easy.
+ It comes with a metric shedload of virtual instruments and effects
+ Considering the above, at $200 it's relatively cheap c.f. the others (the cheaper versions of Ableton and Bitwig are all 'lite' with limits on number of tracks etc.)
+ The "cons" below notwithstanding, nobody can say that it's not one of the leading DAWs.

However:

- You can't use the Logic instruments and effects with anything else if you move on
- it only uses Apple AU format instruments and effects - c.f. the "standard" VST formats - although the majority of 3rd party plug ins include AU versions.
- No easy escape route if you decide to dump Apple, whereas the other options are multi-platform.
- While it has plenty of features for MIDI, and will certainly sync your sequencer etc. there are some frustrations* and I wonder if the alternatives do MIDI better...?

* There's the whole 'MIDI Environment' thing which is probably awesomely powerful if you're a 7th Order Logic Wizard but is a whole other world that desperately needs (a) more documentation and (b) an overhaul to make it less fiddly on retina displays. I only go there to get rid of the inevitable MIDI feedback loop that results from the default settings. Then there's the choice between regular MIDI tracks and using the "external instrument" plugin (with a list of pros and cons).

The other one to maybe add is Reaper - which is cheaper, has a generous un-knobbled trial period and, while it looks less slick than others, has tons of advanced features (e.g. creating CDs or gapless MP3 albums).

Newer versions of Bitwig look like they might be very interesting for people who are into modular synths (support for CV i/o and a built in virtual modular synth/effects section).

 

[RogerWilco6502]

I use Ableton Live and it's a great DAW. I would say that Lite is a great place to start, but if you start doing complex things with MIDI hardware you might want to upgrade. The learning curve isn't too steep, but there is definitely one.

 

[Decoy205]

I’ve been checking out studio one on YouTube and it really has some great features. Apparently their concept was to take all the best things about Logic Pro tools and cubase and lump them together.

I do more audio than synth stuff. People that I know that do music for TV film are using logic and Ableton.

 

[macstatic]

Thanks to all for those suggestions!

theluggage: sounds like a very capable DAW! Very useful and appreciated that you listed the pros and cons which I definitely didn't know about. I have been playing a little around with Garageband which has a very nice user interface which makes the whole approach a little less daunting. But with MIDI sequencing needs I don't think it's for me, but that's probably where Logic comes in, right? I have the impression Logic fills in the gaps of Garageband while keeping that familiar, more user-friendly Mac-like user interface, right?
Unfortunately I have a chicken & egg problem: if I go for Logic I need to update my OS (I'm currently on 10.11 El Capitan, but I think Logic needs 10.13 or 10.14), but if I do that I can no longer run Photoshop CS4 (I might be able to run it in 10.12, but definitely not beyond that), so (unless it's still possible to buy an older version which runs with 10.11) I have to forget about Logic.

RogerWilco6502: I've understood that Ableton Live is a pretty popular DAW, and especially for live performances. Can you change things on the fly without stopping playback or something? For me I'll be using it for recording/composing at home, so no performance needs. MIDI sequencing and "recording to a multitrack digital tape machine with a mixer and effects". I have several MIDI hardware synths/drum machines and will use mostly those (as opposed to 100% relying on soft-synths) which probably means less demand for a super-powerful computer? How well will Ableton Live fit into that scenario?

Decoy205: So Studio One is basically a very capable MIDI sequencer and audio recording/mixing tool? It would probably be helpful with a side-by-side comparison list for the major DAWs out there, but then again I'm new to DAWs and probably wouldn't know what to look for, what I need and can do without etc. Complicated.

How about performance? Are there differences in how much CPU power the various DAWs need? I'm going to use it with a mid-2010 Mac Pro (2.8 GHz quad processor, 24GB RAM, boot SSD and multiple HDDs for storage) which I understand is no longer much of a workhorse compared to the current Macs, but will it do? And in this respect, are there DAWs better (or less) suited for my machine? If I don't rely on all in-the-box software instruments, does that make a big difference? Many questions

 

[RogerWilco6502]

Thanks to all for those suggestions!

RogerWilco6502: I've understood that Ableton Live is a pretty popular DAW, and especially for live performances. Can you change things on the fly without stopping playback or something? For me I'll be using it for recording/composing at home, so no performance needs. MIDI sequencing and "recording to a multitrack digital tape machine with a mixer and effects". I have several MIDI hardware synths/drum machines and will use mostly those (as opposed to 100% relying on soft-synths) which probably means less demand for a super-powerful computer? How well will Ableton Live fit into that scenario?

How about performance? Are there differences in how much CPU power the various DAWs need? I'm going to use it with a mid-2010 Mac Pro (2.8 GHz quad processor, 24GB RAM, boot SSD and multiple HDDs for storage) which I understand is no longer much of a workhorse compared to the current Macs, but will it do? And in this respect, are there DAWs better (or less) suited for my machine? If I don't rely on all in-the-box software instruments, does that make a big difference? Many questions

Yeah, it's pretty dynamic. I use it for the same purpose as you're intending to and as long as you don't run up against the 8 track limit, it's a great DAW. I use it with my SoundCanvas all the time

Performance-wise the DAW itself runs fine on my 2009 MacBook, so you should be fine

 

[macstatic]

You mean the 8 track limit with my "Lite" version? That sounds limiting (i.e. drums on their own would use this up if I want different EQs, effects etc. on each drum sound), but perhaps there are "bounce" functions as with analog multitrack recorders to solve this.

I decided to take a look at Studio One 4 Prime which I have installed but see that I really need to invest some serious time into this. I also realized that many of the free versions are seriously limited, so I think the key to decide is see which full version DAW has all the essential features and of course the total cost.
For instance, I just realized that (comparing Studio One Prime, Artist and Pro) the Prime version won't take any third party plugins while the "Artist" upgrade says its an add-on option. So there's a lot to keep in mind. I should probably look into some "beginner" videos on each DAW to get an overview.
But prior to that: are there any good beginner videos/websites which gives an overview on how a DAW works (regardless which one I go for)? Just so I can relate and get an understanding of the recording, editing and mixing process. I do have a general overview on how an analog multitrack recording/mixing works, and lots of experience with MIDI sequencing, but just about nothing on DAWs.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

You mean the 8 track limit with my "Lite" version? That sounds limiting (i.e. drums on their own would use this up if I want different EQs, effects etc. on each drum sound), but perhaps there are "bounce" functions as with analog multitrack recorders to solve this.

I decided to take a look at Studio One 4 Prime which I have installed but see that I really need to invest some serious time into this. I also realized that many of the free versions are seriously limited, so I think the key to decide is see which full version DAW has all the essential features and of course the total cost.
For instance, I just realized that (comparing Studio One Prime, Artist and Pro) the Prime version won't take any third party plugins while the "Artist" upgrade says its an add-on option. So there's a lot to keep in mind. I should probably look into some "beginner" videos on each DAW to get an overview.
But prior to that: are there any good beginner videos/websites which gives an overview on how a DAW works (regardless which one I go for)? Just so I can relate and get an understanding of the recording, editing and mixing process. I do have a general overview on how an analog multitrack recording/mixing works, and lots of experience with MIDI sequencing, but just about nothing on DAWs.

It is a bit limiting at times. You can bounce and re-import, that's a trick that I haven't ever needed to use but am willing to if required. Additionally Ableton is offering a limited-time 90 day trial of Live Studio (the trial is normally 30 days).

I primarily learn by experimentation, so I can't really give good recommendations for videos or websites. Sorry >.>

 

[ctrlzone]

Ableton is the best for your use case imo, it's an extremely powerful Daw because with Max there are literally no Limits to what you can do. Because of its Popularity there's an infinite Amount of Tutorial Videos on the Net.

Then there is the Ableton Certified Training Program, professional Education available pretty much Worldwide.
(56 countries, 39 languages) theres probably a User group locally and events/courses you can participate to learn, from Beginner to Expert. You can ask any Questions to your Tutor there and have hands on learning Experience, highly recommended.


Because of the Covid Situation they extended all Trial Version up to 90 days!
thats plenty to test out everything in the full Suite Version.
+ there's a 30% sale on all Versions till May 20th. (Ableton sales are quite rare)

Ableton handles Hardware very well and there are plenty Tools available to communicate with your hardware both directions, and if you need a special one you can make it with Max or pay someone to make it for you, but chances are high that theres already something available, most of the Time for free at maxforlive.com

 

[ctrlzone]

here is an example how to integrate a synth, there are many ways, this is one:

here is a good starter Tutorial:

why Ableton is so fast and how:

 

[macstatic]

Thanks for your suggestion.
It really is a jungle out there with all these DAWs. I've been playing a bit more with Garageband as I find it visually intuitive and I can generally figure out stuff for myself, but of course it's far too limiting for doing stuff like syncing external gear.
Ableton Live appears a bit overwhelming and its "flat" look all over makes it look very un-intuitive, but perhaps it's worth a second look. Where should I start?

 

[RogerWilco6502]

Thanks for your suggestion.
It really is a jungle out there with all these DAWs. I've been playing a bit more with Garageband as I find it visually intuitive and I can generally figure out stuff for myself, but of course it's far too limiting for doing stuff like syncing external gear.
Ableton Live appears a bit overwhelming and its "flat" look all over makes it look very un-intuitive, but perhaps it's worth a second look. Where should I start?

On a Mac, Ableton's audio and MIDI systems are pretty easy to use. The "flat" look and the two different views (Session and Arrangement) do take some getting used to, but I was able to acclimate pretty quickly and I too came from Garageband. I primarily use Arrangement view as that is closer to the linear sequencing that other DAWs have.

As an Ableton user, I'd recommend trying it. There are a whole bunch of tutorials for it and Ableton also has amazing online documentation, so you will likely be able to find anything you need. Also feel free to shoot me a PM if you have any questions, as I also use a lot of external gear.

 

[macstatic]

Thanks for the encouragement and offer to help
As I already have Live 10 Lite installed I'll give it a new go before giving up on it. At this stage just about all the DAWs out there seem equally confusing and overwhelming, but I suppose once I get to the "Aha! now I get the general idea" I can easier differentiate between them and see what I need and what doesn't cut it.

So I think the first thing I need for all of this is a "general" overview tutorial for DAWs in general (i.e. recording to multiple tracks, adding effects/EQ, mixing it all together, sequencing of external and internal instruments etc.).
Once I figure that out I'll be ready to see how they do those things on each DAW, what's missing and what works.
How's Ableton Live on CPU usage on a Mac? I'm using a mid-2010 quad-core 2.8GHz Mac Pro for this.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

Thanks for the encouragement and offer to help
As I already have Live 10 Lite installed I'll give it a new go before giving up on it. At this stage just about all the DAWs out there seem equally confusing and overwhelming, but I suppose once I get to the "Aha! now I get the general idea" I can easier differentiate between them and see what I need and what doesn't cut it.

So I think the first thing I need for all of this is a "general" overview tutorial for DAWs in general (i.e. recording to multiple tracks, adding effects/EQ, mixing it all together, sequencing of external and internal instruments etc.).
Once I figure that out I'll be ready to see how they do those things on each DAW, what's missing and what works.
How's Ableton Live on CPU usage on a Mac? I'm using a mid-2010 quad-core 2.8GHz Mac Pro for this.

No problem! This video series is great, and he uses Ableton for it too. His humor is a bit abraisive at times, but he has a lot of good information that is conveyed in an interesting way. He covers more the mixing/mastering/production side of things, but I watched these videos last year when I needed to finally start mixing "correctly" because I was doing a project with vocals and things turned out really nicely.

There is a bit of profanity, so just be warned.

You Suck At Producing

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[ctrlzone]

you gonna be overwhelmed no matter which one you choose

there is no difference in CPU usage between Daw's really, they all cook with water, whats important in Audio is to not overload one core, each Track can only be processed by 1 core, this is true in all daw's.
you will quickly notice if it happens.

you will be fine with your cpu for now, you can upgrade to a w3690 3,47 Ghz 6 core if you need more power at a later point.

If you like the looks of Garage band, maybe Logic x is for you.
If you learn one, you can quickly work in any other Daw.
At the End of the Day, they work pretty much all the same.

i'd still vote for Ableton, once you get the hang of it you will know why it's so awesome,
easy and quick to work with your outboard gear.
Ableton's Interface is the best part of it imo, theres no fancy stuff and everything is crystal clear,
this makes it also the best performing Interface, everything is instant.
you can adjust the looks of it in the preferences or download/create themes at

Download Free Themes for Ableton 10 - Live Themes

Fresh themes for Ableton 10 with the ability to customise them yourself!

www.abletonthemes.com

you don't need 8 tracks for drums you only need 1 if you use the drum rack instrument. you can tweak anything and everything in Ableton you wont be limited by the Software, promise.

still wanna encourage you to download the full suite edition, since you can use it without limitations for 90 days now

the best tip is to click on the triangle in the Botton left, it will explain what is under your Cursor.

here are some more starter Tutorials:

 

[nebojsak]

Myself being mostly Logic user, I'd advise you to look into Reaper. Bargain price (and renewable fully functional trial period), highly customizable and -most important- CPU efficient as hell, comparing to others.

 

[macstatic]

you gonna be overwhelmed no matter which one you choose

I can believe that! 😄
As for CPU use -I think I might go for that CPU upgrade soon, but does it seem that current setup (Mac Pro mid-2010, 4-core W3530 2.8 GHz, 24 GB RAM) will be good for use as a DAW, or do they usually demand the very latest and most powerful computers?
I suppose with the external hardware synths I'll be using less CPU power than many people, so it'll be mostly for effects and a software sampler.

If you like the looks of Garage band, maybe Logic x is for you.
If you learn one, you can quickly work in any other Daw.
At the End of the Day, they work pretty much all the same.

I probably have to rule out Logic X as the current version demands OSX 10.13 (or was it 10.14) or greater, and I'm at 10.11 and can probably only go up to 10.12 because I run some legacy software which won't go higher.

i'd still vote for Ableton, once you get the hang of it you will know why it's so awesome,
easy and quick to work with your outboard gear.
Ableton's Interface is the best part of it imo, theres no fancy stuff and everything is crystal clear,
this makes it also the best performing Interface, everything is instant.
you can adjust the looks of it in the preferences or download/create themes at

Download Free Themes for Ableton 10 - Live Themes

Fresh themes for Ableton 10 with the ability to customise them yourself!

www.abletonthemes.com

Looks good, but it's basically the same appearance -just with different colours.
I suppose it's just one of those things you can get used to, and like you say -nothing fancy but crystal clear. I like the sound of that.
Garageband's and Logic's appearance is much more "3D" like and very tasty, but that sort of thing probably steals more CPU power too. On second though I imagine plugins to look the same in any DAW and when you get to know them it really doesn't matter as long as it does the job.

you don't need 8 tracks for drums you only need 1 if you use the drum rack instrument. you can tweak anything and everything in Ableton you wont be limited by the Software, promise.

You mean one drumtrack if you use software-based drums, right?
I was thinking of when I want to record my hardware drum machine and treat each sound differently, like I would in the analog world with a mixer and effects applied.

still wanna encourage you to download the full suite edition, since you can use it without limitations for 90 days now

That's a good suggestion. Is that 90 days from when you start using it, or does it expire in May or something? I should take full advantage of it, so maybe I should just play around with Live 10 Lite which I already have, just to get around the basics, then install the full version demo to see if it's for me or not.
From what you (and RogerWilco6502) have said in this thread I might have had a misconception of Ableton to be for those who play live, do complicated and strange experimental electronic music and use a lot of modular synths. I might have to reevaluate that.
Thanks for the video tutorial links. It should give me an opportunity to get an overview of what it is and how it works. That's the hardest part.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

That's a good suggestion. Is that 90 days from when you start using it, or does it expire in May or something? I should take full advantage of it, so maybe I should just play around with Live 10 Lite which I already have, just to get around the basics, then install the full version demo to see if it's for me or not.
From what you (and RogerWilco6502) have said in this thread I might have had a misconception of Ableton to be for those who play live, do complicated and strange experimental electronic music and use a lot of modular synths. I might have to reevaluate that.
Thanks for the video tutorial links. It should give me an opportunity to get an overview of what it is and how it works. That's the hardest part.

I believe it's 90 days from when you start using it.

Ableton can be used to make strange electronic music (some of the stuff I make borders on that ), but in reality a DAW is just like any other general tool: you as the user can use it however you please. I've made experimental music with it, but I've also made more traditional pop/rock music. I own no modular synths (and actually primarily uses software synths or my Roland SC-880). Best of luck on your journey!

 

[ctrlzone]

You mean one drumtrack if you use software-based drums, right?
I was thinking of when I want to record my hardware drum machine and treat each sound differently, like I would in the analog world with a mixer and effects applied.

each individual pad in the drum rack is like a track where you can put different effects on each sound.
you drag the "external Instrument" device on each pad, then configure it according to your hardware specific needs.

once you add stuff to pads you can unfold the Drum-rack Track.
Smaller individual channels appear in the mixer.
(at the very top of the Channel in the Mixer there's a triangle to unfold)

you can do all that in the drum-rack itself, but selecting the individual Tracks like normal in the Mixer is a bit easier to wrap your head around.

this way you can handle your drum-machine with just 2 Channels.
there are many ways to do this but for the intro version, this is the way to go.

you should be able to do this after watching these:

 

[ctrlzone]

As for CPU use -I think I might go for that CPU upgrade soon, but does it seem that current setup (Mac Pro mid-2010, 4-core W3530 2.8 GHz, 24 GB RAM) will be good for use as a DAW, or do they usually demand the very latest and most powerful computers?
I suppose with the external hardware synths I'll be using less CPU power than many people, so it'll be mostly for effects and a software sampler.

Audio can be very demanding, but there are ways to manage it.

-one is to use Return tracks/Busses, those on the right side in the Mixer.
You put your Fx in a Return Track, for example a Delay.
this way you can have the same Delay on every channel and regulate the amount with the send knobs,
but you use only processing power for 1 delay.
if you put the same FX on all 8 Tracks you need 8 Times the power.
All Daw's have this.

-then you can freeze Tracks, means you can no longer change parameters till you unfreeze.
a frozen Tracks is like playing an Audio-file, means it needs no Cpu, well, almost

-then you want to even out your processing by not putting too much on one single Track and overloading a core, resulting in drop outs glitches.
this does not depend on the number of fx but on the processing power they need together.

most Abletons fx are very cpu friendly, theres everything there, theres no need for plugins really.


edit/

the w3690 is a great cpu for Audio, it makes a huge difference to your current cpu. i had the same before.

 

[macstatic]

each individual pad in the drum rack is like a track where you can put different effects on each sound.

Wow. I think I got it after watching the 2nd video.
I'm probably thinking too much in terms of an analog 24-track analogy (no pun intended), but this is sort of like multiple tracks within two tracks, and assigning MIDI notes within that.
I assume doing it this way is to bring down the number of needed tracks to make it easier to get an overview without scrolling too much?

 

[macstatic]

Audio can be very demanding, but there are ways to manage it.

-one is to use Return tracks/Busses, those on the right side in the Mixer.
You put your Fx in a Return Track, for example a Delay.
this way you can have the same Delay on every channel and regulate the amount with the send knobs,
but you use only processing power for 1 delay.

Ah! Just like with a physical mixer and one effect processor.

-then you can freeze Tracks, means you can no longer change parameters till you unfreeze.
a frozen Tracks is like playing an Audio-file, means it needs no Cpu, well, almost

Cool! So it's sort of like merging the two, ending up with an audio recording of the two?
I hope this means you still get to keep the original instrument track(s) in case you later change your mind and want to use different effects/panning/EQ etc.

-then you want to even out your processing by not putting too much on one single Track and overloading a core, resulting in drop outs glitches.
this does not depend on the number of fx but on the processing power they need together.

most Abletons fx are very cpu friendly, theres everything there, theres no need for plugins really.

Good to hear. So commonly used effects are part of the software, not bundled plugins?

the w3690 is a great cpu for Audio, it makes a huge difference to your current cpu. i had the same before.

Great! 😄
I've been told that the 6-core 3.46 GHz X3690 is the one to go for now as they have some advantages over the W-series, but I suppose the speed result is the same. Then there's also the 4-core 3.46 GHz X5677 and apparently each of these two CPUs has its own advantage over the other depending on what kind of software you're running. Do you (or anyone else reading) know how this applies to Ableton Live/DAW software in general?

 

[RogerWilco6502]

Do you (or anyone else reading) know how this applies to Ableton Live/DAW software in general?

Well, I can offer my own experiences: Ableton Live runs fine on my 2009 MacBook. What gives it trouble is Arturia's Analog Lab 4, which is a software instrument that sounds amazing but is also really heavy. Ableton itself is fairly light. From my experiece, it all depends on the software you use in addition to Live

 

[ctrlzone]

Cool! So it's sort of like merging the two, ending up with an audio recording of the two?
I hope this means you still get to keep the original instrument track(s) in case you later change your mind and want to use different effects/panning/EQ etc.

yes, exactly. you can unfreeze at any time.
another common use of this feature is to duplicate a track and then freeze and flatten.
Flatten leaves you with a pure audio file.
you can also mark a region on a frozen track and drag out chunks of it, creating audio files.

how this applies to Ableton Live/DAW software in general?

single core speed is the most important, so in an ideal world you want a high single clock with as many cores as possible.
in case of the mac pro you really wanna max out your possibilities for Audio, so the 6 core is a must imo.
w3690 is for single cpu mac pro, x5690 is for dual cpu trays. Besides the dual cpu support for the x5690 they are the same chip. you can use the w3690 or the x5690 in a single cpu tray.

 

[macstatic]

Thanks for clearing up the CPU thing, and especially concerning DAW performance.
I'll go for a W3690 or X5690 CPU upgrade then, and in the process take full advantage of my 1333 MHz RAM (24 GB) which now only runs at 1066 MHz.

I've spent some time with Ableton Live, recording an external drum-machine track and adding some built-in effects. Sounds good, and the built-in effects appear more "intergrated" than the plugins I've used with other DAWs. Not so much fiddling with settings (delay and reverb) to get things to sound right. That's good.
The user interface isn't particularly pleasing nor inspiring, but that might also be a good thing -so as to concentrate on the music and not the DAW itself.
Unlike the other DAWs I've spent time with (Garageband and Studio One), Live Lite won't autoload the last song I've been working on. I didn't find any settings for this either, but I suppose the full versions might have this.

I realized, by chance, as I came across a reader comment somewhere, that Live doesn't support MIDI sysex, which is a bummer, so I looked it up, and sure enough you have to get the "Suite" for that (or "Standard" and buy "Max" in addition).
From using Notator on an Atari ST I'm used to dumping each synth's patch for that particular song to a track prior to playing back the sequences. It's things like this which makes it hard to choose a DAW, because you take it for granted, yet you don't particularly remember all those features on your request list (and then again there are DAW features I don't know that I need but when I get the I'll probably kick myself for not having looked into those).
....such as Studio Ones inability to use 3rd party plugins unless you go for the top version ("Professional") as "Artist" needs a (purchaseable) add-on for that.
Complicated...