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YouTube App can now play videos @ 60fps
- Thread starter Billy B.
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Nope... Defintetly 60fps! I've actually been watching 60fps content on Apple TV for years. Giant Bomb has had 60fps videos long before YouTube. I've been Airplaying their videos to my Apple TV and it's silky smooth. This is gameplay video so it's very easy to notice if it's 60 or 30. YouTube enabled 60fps on the Playstation 3 & 4 on the YouTube app not long after 60fps was an option. I don't know why it took them this long to enable it on the Apple TV.
I'M STILL SEEING ALL OF THE FRAMES!
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Highly unlikely. It's much more likely the video is being down converted to 30fps, even if the description or similar says it's 60fps. I've done lots of experiments with 
TV3 with 60fps 1080p I've shot and edited myself. It will try to play that video, even run a little but it will have a strobe-like effect if there is much camera movement. I suspect, it is dynamically down-converting 60fps video to 30fps. Or maybe these are not HD videos and it can dynamically down-convert fast enough to fool you?
However, just in case something new has actually been done, please point us to a few of these 60fps videos so we can see for ourselves (share links) .If you possess one or more of these videos, please post the file to Dropbox or similar and share a link.
If you are going by a description, I could post a video to Youtube with a description that says it's 16K and 240fps that would play on the currentTV, even lay text that says that right on top of the HD 30fps video. Descriptions are anything you want them to be.
I suspect this is a modern version of being fooled by labeling. It reminds me of the early 2000's when people started buying these brand new HDTVs, then getting home and plugging cable right into them (so feeding them analog SD). They'd squawk about the impressive picture of the HD programming and I'd point out that it wasn't HD. "Sure it is", they'd say, "most of the network shows say 'in HD where available'... and this is a HDTV." Then, I'd rewire their setup to feed real HD to their sets. That "in HD where available" messaging even had some with SD sets fooled into thinking they were watching an HD picture too.
TV3 with 60fps 1080p I've shot and edited myself. It will try to play that video, even run a little but it will have a strobe-like effect if there is much camera movement. I suspect, it is dynamically down-converting 60fps video to 30fps. Or maybe these are not HD videos and it can dynamically down-convert fast enough to fool you?However, just in case something new has actually been done, please point us to a few of these 60fps videos so we can see for ourselves (share links) .If you possess one or more of these videos, please post the file to Dropbox or similar and share a link.
If you are going by a description, I could post a video to Youtube with a description that says it's 16K and 240fps that would play on the current
TV, even lay text that says that right on top of the HD 30fps video. Descriptions are anything you want them to be.I suspect this is a modern version of being fooled by labeling. It reminds me of the early 2000's when people started buying these brand new HDTVs, then getting home and plugging cable right into them (so feeding them analog SD). They'd squawk about the impressive picture of the HD programming and I'd point out that it wasn't HD. "Sure it is", they'd say, "most of the network shows say 'in HD where available'... and this is a HDTV." Then, I'd rewire their setup to feed real HD to their sets. That "in HD where available" messaging even had some with SD sets fooled into thinking they were watching an HD picture too.
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It's definitely not the placebo effect. Over the weekend I was playing a youtube video and I noticed right away that it's way smoother than usual.. At first I thought maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me, but after watching for awhile it's definitely over 30fps. I think I know what's going on... I think YouTube enabled 60fps on ATV, but only @ 720p. Even though some of these youtube videos you can watch @ 1080p 60fps in your browser... I have a feeling the ATV can't handle 1080p 60fps.... But it's does 720p 60fps flawlessly. This would make sense because all of the giantbomb.com videos that I airplay to my ATV are 720p 60fps.
Here's the YouTube video I was watching when I first noticed it.
This one makes it very easy to see.
Also, here's a 2011 video from giantbomb.com. I think this is their 1st 60fps video. Try airplaying it to you ATV.
http://www.giantbomb.com/videos/quick-look-rage/2300-4996/
Here's a newer one.
http://www.giantbomb.com/videos/quick-look-super-stardust-ultra/2300-9935/
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Need to be able to download one of them so we can check to see if they are really 720p 60fps... or any 720p 60fps video and then feed that to the TV. I did a bunch of searches just now and can find lots of camera demo videos claiming 720p at 60fps on Vimeo. That site will let you download videos. However, when I tried to download a few of them, opened them in Quicktime, showed the details with the Inspector, they are all 720p 30fps.
Anyone got a bit of software that will download one of those he linked as a file? If so, follow the same plan to open it in Quicktime, show movie inspector and then look at the fps rate. Or, if anyone has a 720p 60fps video on hand, does yourTV play it with no issues? Again, use Quicktime on that same file to be sure it is 720p and 60fps.
Billy, can you point us to any that aren't an hour long? A minute or two would be enough to confirm or deny the suggestion, though there might be some added verification of having to upload the file to youtube (without youtube converting it to 30fps) and then play it through the youtube app to be absolutely sure.
TV. I did a bunch of searches just now and can find lots of camera demo videos claiming 720p at 60fps on Vimeo. That site will let you download videos. However, when I tried to download a few of them, opened them in Quicktime, showed the details with the Inspector, they are all 720p 30fps.Anyone got a bit of software that will download one of those he linked as a file? If so, follow the same plan to open it in Quicktime, show movie inspector and then look at the fps rate. Or, if anyone has a 720p 60fps video on hand, does your
TV play it with no issues? Again, use Quicktime on that same file to be sure it is 720p and 60fps.Billy, can you point us to any that aren't an hour long? A minute or two would be enough to confirm or deny the suggestion, though there might be some added verification of having to upload the file to youtube (without youtube converting it to 30fps) and then play it through the youtube app to be absolutely sure.
Need to be able to download one of them so we can check to see if they are really 720p 60fps... or any 720p 60fps video and then feed that to the
Anyone got a bit of software that will download one of those he linked as a file? If so, follow the same plan to open it in Quicktime, show movie inspector and then look at the fps rate. Or, if anyone has a 720p 60fps video on hand, does your
Billy, can you point us to any that aren't an hour long? A minute or two would be enough to confirm or deny the suggestion, though there might be some added verification of having to upload the file to youtube (without youtube converting it to 30fps) and then play it through the youtube app to be absolutely sure.
I'm not sure how to download a YouTube video... Unfortunately all of Giant Bomb's feature videos are pretty long... And to download the actual file you have to be a paying subscriber. But it does still stream @60fps. I just went and downloaded this video to my PC. http://www.giantbomb.com/videos/quick-look-halo-the-mcc-halo-3-odst/2300-10226/
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
OK that's good. It's showing 720p and 60fps in that window so it looks like you can do a simple test: drop it into iTunes and then go to TV and see if it will play smoothly from iTunes. If it does, I'd take that as likely that TV is able to either play it "as is" or, more likely, is down-converting to 30fps on the fly (basically dropping every other frame). Be sure to watch long enough to see a fairly good amount of on-screen movement (such as the camera seeming to pan so that everything on screen is moving).
The only way to know for sure would be to have an information setting on your TV that will display fps it is receiving fromTV (not typical) or to use a device to which you can attach TV and it will show the fps it's receiving. I'm not sure this will conclude with an absolute conclusive confirmation or refute but your test will likely motivate others who might have such a device to do some checking themselves... and maybe one of them would have the device to measure what's actually coming out of that TV.
If your test goes favorably, I'll render some 1080p 60fps to 720p 60fps and do some fresh testing myself. I remain skeptical based on specs and having done some of this 60fps testing before, but I don't remember testing 720p 60fps myself, so I don't know about that one. I do know 1080p 60fps will try to play but obviously fail as a camera pans (or lots of stuff on screen is moving).
And I still suspect that 720p 60fps will departTV as 720p 30fps with the TV dropping every other frame on the fly. I'm under the impression the hardware itself is limited to 30fps output and that the software can't do anything about that.
TV and see if it will play smoothly from iTunes. If it does, I'd take that as likely that TV is able to either play it "as is" or, more likely, is down-converting to 30fps on the fly (basically dropping every other frame). Be sure to watch long enough to see a fairly good amount of on-screen movement (such as the camera seeming to pan so that everything on screen is moving).The only way to know for sure would be to have an information setting on your TV that will display fps it is receiving from
TV (not typical) or to use a device to which you can attach TV and it will show the fps it's receiving. I'm not sure this will conclude with an absolute conclusive confirmation or refute but your test will likely motivate others who might have such a device to do some checking themselves... and maybe one of them would have the device to measure what's actually coming out of that TV.If your test goes favorably, I'll render some 1080p 60fps to 720p 60fps and do some fresh testing myself. I remain skeptical based on specs and having done some of this 60fps testing before, but I don't remember testing 720p 60fps myself, so I don't know about that one. I do know 1080p 60fps will try to play but obviously fail as a camera pans (or lots of stuff on screen is moving).
And I still suspect that 720p 60fps will depart
TV as 720p 30fps with the TV dropping every other frame on the fly. I'm under the impression the hardware itself is limited to 30fps output and that the software can't do anything about that.
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WARNING!!!! Do not watch this video if you suffer from epilepsy or are sensitive to flashing images.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8adrIxAtkLU
WARNING!!!! Do not watch this video if you suffer from epilepsy or are sensitive to flashing images.
This video seems to indicate the aTV YouTube app does infact play 60fps content. The left half of the image is 60fps and the right half is 30fps, the way I understand it is if the player only supports 30fps then the left half of the image should just be a solid color.
However!!! Once downloaded and imported into iTunes and then played on the aTV using home sharing it only seems to playback at 30fps, and yes the downloaded file is still 60fps and plays back fine at 60fps on computer.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8adrIxAtkLU
WARNING!!!! Do not watch this video if you suffer from epilepsy or are sensitive to flashing images.
This video seems to indicate the aTV YouTube app does infact play 60fps content. The left half of the image is 60fps and the right half is 30fps, the way I understand it is if the player only supports 30fps then the left half of the image should just be a solid color.
However!!! Once downloaded and imported into iTunes and then played on the aTV using home sharing it only seems to playback at 30fps, and yes the downloaded file is still 60fps and plays back fine at 60fps on computer.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
So, that would imply that the creators of the youtube app have been able to do something in their app's player software that the creators of the stock player app (Apple) have not bee able to do (or have chosen not to do). This seems like too big of a deal to keep this secret. I would think youtube would be touting it themselves.
And again, that's 1080p 60fps which I know I've tested on theTV with certainty I've got a 1080p 60fps file and it didn't work. So either the youtube app has worked some magic in it's software or there's something else going on here. I might upload one of my 1080p 60fps files to youtube and see what happens.
Anybody got a tool to see what's actually coming out of theTV when one is trying to play youtube 60fps 1080p and 720p videos?
Update: I dug up some of my own, original 1080p 59.94fps video, excerpted 2 clips (one a slow zoom out and the other a left-to-right pan) yielding a final test video of 32 seconds, then rendered it as 720p 59.94fps and 1080p 59.94fps. I dropped both into iTunes.TV played the 720p file with no issues but choked on the 1080p copy after about 1 second (resulting in the sound continuing to play but it seeming to jump to a new frame in the video about every 4 or 5 seconds).
I suspect that there is enough horsepower in the box to dynamically convert 720p 60fps to 720p 30fps and that's what we're seeing with these youtube videos. I can upload the video to youtube but I won't be able to tell the difference since it played just fine on theTV via iTunes. So we still need someone with some kind of device that can measure fps to see what's actually coming out of the TV when we think we're playing a 60fps video. I'm fully back to skeptical again.
I also tried the video roidy referenced on youtube and both halves flickered, though the one on the left appeared to flicker less than the one on the right. So I don't know what I'm seeing there for sure. Relative to the right half, the left half definitely looked more solid. But it was flickering- just more slowly. I even tried covering the halves to make sure there wasn't some optical illusion creating the perception of flickering.
One thing I do know: in my own testing, when my camera shoots video on a tripod with no panning or zooming (thus few pixels actually changing in the picture),TV will play that 1080p 60fps well. It's only when there is enough change to the picture (such as panning left or right or zooming in or out) that it will choke. I wonder if the flicker test having (what I'm guessing is) only 2 frames may not be enough visual variation to choke it if that really is streaming 60fps from youtube.
Again, we need someone with a meter (or maybe a TV that actually shows fps on an info screen) to try it and see what's actually coming out of theTV with 720p 60fps and 1080p 60fps clips.
And again, that's 1080p 60fps which I know I've tested on the
TV with certainty I've got a 1080p 60fps file and it didn't work. So either the youtube app has worked some magic in it's software or there's something else going on here. I might upload one of my 1080p 60fps files to youtube and see what happens.Anybody got a tool to see what's actually coming out of the
TV when one is trying to play youtube 60fps 1080p and 720p videos?Update: I dug up some of my own, original 1080p 59.94fps video, excerpted 2 clips (one a slow zoom out and the other a left-to-right pan) yielding a final test video of 32 seconds, then rendered it as 720p 59.94fps and 1080p 59.94fps. I dropped both into iTunes.
TV played the 720p file with no issues but choked on the 1080p copy after about 1 second (resulting in the sound continuing to play but it seeming to jump to a new frame in the video about every 4 or 5 seconds).I suspect that there is enough horsepower in the box to dynamically convert 720p 60fps to 720p 30fps and that's what we're seeing with these youtube videos. I can upload the video to youtube but I won't be able to tell the difference since it played just fine on the
TV via iTunes. So we still need someone with some kind of device that can measure fps to see what's actually coming out of the TV when we think we're playing a 60fps video. I'm fully back to skeptical again.I also tried the video roidy referenced on youtube and both halves flickered, though the one on the left appeared to flicker less than the one on the right. So I don't know what I'm seeing there for sure. Relative to the right half, the left half definitely looked more solid. But it was flickering- just more slowly. I even tried covering the halves to make sure there wasn't some optical illusion creating the perception of flickering.
One thing I do know: in my own testing, when my camera shoots video on a tripod with no panning or zooming (thus few pixels actually changing in the picture),
TV will play that 1080p 60fps well. It's only when there is enough change to the picture (such as panning left or right or zooming in or out) that it will choke. I wonder if the flicker test having (what I'm guessing is) only 2 frames may not be enough visual variation to choke it if that really is streaming 60fps from youtube.Again, we need someone with a meter (or maybe a TV that actually shows fps on an info screen) to try it and see what's actually coming out of the
TV with 720p 60fps and 1080p 60fps clips.
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I think it's just a matter of YouTube enabling 60fps from their end to certain devices. Probably after a device has been thoroughly tested. When YouTube 1st announced 60fps, I think only Chrome could play them. I tried playing them on my ATV & PS3 but the playback was only 30. Then a few months later a read on a forum that you can now watch YT videos @ 60fps on the PS3. I tried it and sure enough, it was very smooth video. This was without downloading a YouTube update. YouTube is getting ready to launch https://gaming.youtube.com soon. Users will be able to stream live video @ 60fps. Something that http://www.twitch.tv/ also does. I think YouTube is enabling 60fps on as many different systems as they can for the launch of their new gaming site. I wouldn't be surprised if it's enabled on iPhones soon. I can already watch http://www.twitch.tv/ @ 60fps on my iPhone. I can also stream twitch from my iPhone to my ATV @ 60fps.
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HobeSoundDarryl, I put that 60fps file in iTunes and Airplayed it. It played very smoothly on my ATV. I don't think the Apple TV is doing any down converting. If it is, it's definitely not dropping half of the frames. It's much too smooth. I also converted that same file to 30fps so I can switch back & forth between 30 & 60fps. The comparison is like day & night.
The way I understand it that's the whole point of that video, it's supposed to flash, it's created like this:-
Code:
[Left 60FPS Right 30FPS]
Frame 1:- [BBBBBBBBBB WWWWWWWWWWW]
Frame 2:- [WWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWWWWWW]
Frame 3:- [BBBBBBBBBB BBBBBBBBBBB]
Frame 4:- [WWWWWWWWWW BBBBBBBBBBB]
repeat......So the Left side switches color every frame and the right side switches every 2 frames. This mean when it's played back at 60fps both sides of the screen should flash, with the left hand 60fps side flashing twice as fast. However if it's played back on a 30fps player then every other frame is dropped so the left hand 60fps side will remain a soild color but the right hand 30fps side will still flash.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
OK. To my eyes then on my HDTV, the right side appeared to be flashing at least 2X faster than the left side but both sides appeared to be flashing. So, as I said, I'm not sure how to interpret that result. The left side definitely did not appear solid, so that implies 60fps but then I ran my own 1080p 60fps video and it choked after about 1 second (sound continued but still video frames about every 4 seconds).
The one possible scenario that fits the OPs post suggests that I upload my 1080p60fps clip to youtube and then try to play it back onTV. While it definitely did not play right through the stock player, OP is implying that maybe the youtube player app is doing something the stock player can't (won't).
I might upload it and give it a try if no one else with a meter chimes in soon confirming or refuting 60fps coming out of theTV via the youtube app. If I upload my clip, I'll post my results.
The one possible scenario that fits the OPs post suggests that I upload my 1080p60fps clip to youtube and then try to play it back on
TV. While it definitely did not play right through the stock player, OP is implying that maybe the youtube player app is doing something the stock player can't (won't).I might upload it and give it a try if no one else with a meter chimes in soon confirming or refuting 60fps coming out of the
TV via the youtube app. If I upload my clip, I'll post my results.
First thing to do would be to play back the youtube video on a computer to see exactly how it should look, on my computer the left hand side of the image flashes twice as fast as the right hand side. Then play back on the aTV and a HDTV, on my ATV3 and Panasonic HDTV it plays back the same as on computer, again the left hand side flashes twice as fast as the right hand side. If on your HDTV the right hand side appears to be the one flashing faster then I'm not sure... does your TV do any kind of frame interpolation? Like 120Hz stuff or higher? If so try turning all that off.
Maybe just too high a bitrate?
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
The bitrate (only 13.73Mbps) issue could apply. That's a problem with the flicker test though, it is a very simple file. As I mentioned, I can take video I've shot that is full color at 1080p 60fps and get it playing on TV as long as the camcorder that shoots the shot is stable (on a tripod) and not panning left or right, etc (so that lots of pixels are changing at the same time). That still shot with hardly any pixels changing would be easier for the TV processor to down-convert to 30fps. However, pan the camera so that most of the pixels have to change, and the TV can't handle that.
We just had this same thing happen a few years ago on this site. One guy thoughtTV was outputting 1080p 60fps but through a variety of trials we figured out it was actually capped at 30fps. That was all revolving around the Apple player app, so the interesting new variable here is the potential for the youtube app to have it's own player that might have found a way around what has previously been viewed as a hard hardware cap (at 30fps).
My concern with the flicker video test is that it's relatively simple- just a few frames, so theTV might be able to hold those in RAM and flip back & forth at 60fps OR, in limited RAM it might be able to down convert to 30fps? But then what? If we determine it is outputting that at 60fps, either it's great news (the youtube app has done something the Apple app can't/won't do) OR status quo- the youtube app is still constrained by the output hardware of the TV so that what is getting to the TV is still actually 30fps. I'm betting on the latter because I'm under a strong impression that the hardware is capped out at 30fps regardless of what the software (the players) want to try to throw at it. But I'm still open to the possibility that Google has done something with TV that Apple can't (or has chosen to NOT do).
The test for me would be to upload my own 1080p 60fps video to youtube and then try to play it with the youtube app. OR, if we can get any of the hardware tech guys in here, some of them will probably have a meter they can inject between the box and their TV, run the flicker video and see whether 60fps is actually departing theTV. I'll try the former as soon as I can- even share the link for anyone else interested in trying it on their sets too. I'll be hopeful but I'm still pretty skeptical.
TV as long as the camcorder that shoots the shot is stable (on a tripod) and not panning left or right, etc (so that lots of pixels are changing at the same time). That still shot with hardly any pixels changing would be easier for the TV processor to down-convert to 30fps. However, pan the camera so that most of the pixels have to change, and the TV can't handle that.We just had this same thing happen a few years ago on this site. One guy thought
TV was outputting 1080p 60fps but through a variety of trials we figured out it was actually capped at 30fps. That was all revolving around the Apple player app, so the interesting new variable here is the potential for the youtube app to have it's own player that might have found a way around what has previously been viewed as a hard hardware cap (at 30fps).My concern with the flicker video test is that it's relatively simple- just a few frames, so the
TV might be able to hold those in RAM and flip back & forth at 60fps OR, in limited RAM it might be able to down convert to 30fps? But then what? If we determine it is outputting that at 60fps, either it's great news (the youtube app has done something the Apple app can't/won't do) OR status quo- the youtube app is still constrained by the output hardware of the TV so that what is getting to the TV is still actually 30fps. I'm betting on the latter because I'm under a strong impression that the hardware is capped out at 30fps regardless of what the software (the players) want to try to throw at it. But I'm still open to the possibility that Google has done something with TV that Apple can't (or has chosen to NOT do).The test for me would be to upload my own 1080p 60fps video to youtube and then try to play it with the youtube app. OR, if we can get any of the hardware tech guys in here, some of them will probably have a meter they can inject between the box and their TV, run the flicker video and see whether 60fps is actually departing the
TV. I'll try the former as soon as I can- even share the link for anyone else interested in trying it on their sets too. I'll be hopeful but I'm still pretty skeptical.
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The bitrate (only 13.73Mbps) issue could apply. That's a problem with the flicker test though, it is a very simple file. As I mentioned, I can take video I've shot that is full color at 1080p 60fps and get it playing on
I recorded some 1080p 60fps videos on my iPhone and tried to Airplay it. I had the same results as you. Some parts of the the video were smooth. But when panning the camera the video began to judder. It also stopped and buffered a lot. I'm not sure if it's too much data for the ATV's processor to handle... Or it's too much data to Airplay... Or both. But it does handle 720 60fps easily. Hopefully someone can figure out a way to test this for proof... But my eyes are sensitive when it comes to frame rates. I've always been the type who will turn the resolution and detail down just to have a nice steady smooth frame rate while I'm gaming.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
I can rule out airplay issue. My earlier experiment was wired 1080p60fps. You could rule it out too by importing that same video to your computer and dropping it into iTunes, then seeing how it plays on TV. I suspect it will probably be pretty much the same (with Airplay eliminated from the possibilities).
I did try the same video at 720p60fps and it played through just fine but I'm not sure it was playing 60fps. I still think the hardware is capped at 30fps, per Apple's own hardware specifications. I don't think software can change that BUT, this concept of the YouTube app maybe finding a way to make it do something it's long been thought to NOT be able to do is interesting... like a hack to an iPhone to make it capable of something more than we've been told. Maybe this is a YouTube player hack and we can get 1080p60fps to our screens?
I've uploaded the video to test it through the YouTube app. It's not yet showing up in theTV search. I'll report back though if it works. Even if it does, I'll still be somewhat skeptical because I can't know for sure that the 60fps version is the version being streamed (YouTube could be making a custom version just for Apple iDevices for all we know). But we'll see.
As is, we've got the hardwired test FAIL by just dropping it in iTunes and streaming it through Apple's player. It will be interesting to see if it fares better through the YouTube app player.
TV. I suspect it will probably be pretty much the same (with Airplay eliminated from the possibilities).I did try the same video at 720p60fps and it played through just fine but I'm not sure it was playing 60fps. I still think the hardware is capped at 30fps, per Apple's own hardware specifications. I don't think software can change that BUT, this concept of the YouTube app maybe finding a way to make it do something it's long been thought to NOT be able to do is interesting... like a hack to an iPhone to make it capable of something more than we've been told. Maybe this is a YouTube player hack and we can get 1080p60fps to our screens?
I've uploaded the video to test it through the YouTube app. It's not yet showing up in the
TV search. I'll report back though if it works. Even if it does, I'll still be somewhat skeptical because I can't know for sure that the 60fps version is the version being streamed (YouTube could be making a custom version just for Apple iDevices for all we know). But we'll see.As is, we've got the hardwired test FAIL by just dropping it in iTunes and streaming it through Apple's player. It will be interesting to see if it fares better through the YouTube app player.
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I found a post from early this year on this forum saying the same thing as me.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/appletv-3-tested-60fps-1080p.1426683/page-2#post-20551756
I've also tested 720p/60fps on two more ATV's and two more TV's. Both of them had the same results as mine. Very smooth video that was clearly playing back at a frame rate over 30.
I wouldn't get too hung up on Apple's 30fps spec on the ATV3. I'm pretty sure that has everything to do with the fact that 1080p 60fps is not possible. 1080p was the selling point of the ATV3. If the spec stated 60fps is possible but only at resolutions under 1080p... I don't think that would go over too well. Apple likes to keeps things simple. It also may have been capped @ 30fps on release and a firmware update allowed 60fps playback @ 720p.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/appletv-3-tested-60fps-1080p.1426683/page-2#post-20551756
I've also tested 720p/60fps on two more ATV's and two more TV's. Both of them had the same results as mine. Very smooth video that was clearly playing back at a frame rate over 30.
I wouldn't get too hung up on Apple's 30fps spec on the ATV3. I'm pretty sure that has everything to do with the fact that 1080p 60fps is not possible. 1080p was the selling point of the ATV3. If the spec stated 60fps is possible but only at resolutions under 1080p... I don't think that would go over too well. Apple likes to keeps things simple. It also may have been capped @ 30fps on release and a firmware update allowed 60fps playback @ 720p.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Again Billy, without it being measured, all that confirms is that maybe Oviano is fooled too. His measurement is based on his ability to differentiate 60fps from 30fps using his own eyes. That's quite a skill. I can't tell you how many times in the early days of HD, I- being THE AV goto guy in my circle- would be called over to someone's house because they had just purchased a new HDTV, plugged in analog SD cable, and then beamed with pride at the incredible HD picture they thought they saw there. I would explain that they were seeing an SD picture and they would highlight how shows would open with an "in HD where available" badge to confirm they were seeing an HD show. Then, I'd rewire their set to actually show HD. Human eyes are easily fooled at 24fps and 30fps.
720p 30fps can look amazingly smooth. Apparently, our eyes can only resolve something like 12-16 frames per second so that's about twice the speed. Just about all movies play at 24fps natively and they can look amazingly smooth at 1080p on blurray at 24fps orTV converted to 30fps.
The best word we have is that theTV hardware is hard capped at 30fps. That may be understating what the hardware can actually do to "keep it simple" but if it could actually do 60fps, I'd think more than just a couple of threads on rumor sites would have already exposed that benefit and there would be many sources confirming it using meters. It would be a really big deal to many people if it can play 720p60fps at 60fps. I suspect we're fooled because we're feeding it a file that we know is 720p60fps and it is playing smoothly on our TVs. I just did that yesterday myself. But what I think is happening is that the TV has enough on-board horsepower to convert 60fps to 30fps 720p on the fly, so while it is appearing to play 720p60fps what's actually flowing out of it is 720p30fps.
Nevertheless, I'm testing it myself for you as soon as the videos I uploaded yesterday shows up in search. In short, I'm intrigued enough at the potential "hack" that could conceptually exist within the YouTube player software to overcome what is perceived to be a hardware fps speed limit to do some testing myself... even though I'm pretty skeptical.
Again, all we need is one guy with a meter to chime in on this thread. The meter will confirm how many fps are coming out of anTV when playing 720p60fps and 1080p60fps video. Hopefully one shows up here soon so we can all know. I'd love to learn that it CAN output >30fps myself. My own test won't be conclusive on it's own as we can't be sure that YouTube is not re-processing the video on their servers to serve it up so that it plays well on a device like TV. A meter or maybe someone's TV that actually shows the fps rate it is receiving would be HUGE.
720p 30fps can look amazingly smooth. Apparently, our eyes can only resolve something like 12-16 frames per second so that's about twice the speed. Just about all movies play at 24fps natively and they can look amazingly smooth at 1080p on blurray at 24fps or
TV converted to 30fps.The best word we have is that the
TV hardware is hard capped at 30fps. That may be understating what the hardware can actually do to "keep it simple" but if it could actually do 60fps, I'd think more than just a couple of threads on rumor sites would have already exposed that benefit and there would be many sources confirming it using meters. It would be a really big deal to many people if it can play 720p60fps at 60fps. I suspect we're fooled because we're feeding it a file that we know is 720p60fps and it is playing smoothly on our TVs. I just did that yesterday myself. But what I think is happening is that the TV has enough on-board horsepower to convert 60fps to 30fps 720p on the fly, so while it is appearing to play 720p60fps what's actually flowing out of it is 720p30fps.Nevertheless, I'm testing it myself for you as soon as the videos I uploaded yesterday shows up in search. In short, I'm intrigued enough at the potential "hack" that could conceptually exist within the YouTube player software to overcome what is perceived to be a hardware fps speed limit to do some testing myself... even though I'm pretty skeptical.
Again, all we need is one guy with a meter to chime in on this thread. The meter will confirm how many fps are coming out of an
TV when playing 720p60fps and 1080p60fps video. Hopefully one shows up here soon so we can all know. I'd love to learn that it CAN output >30fps myself. My own test won't be conclusive on it's own as we can't be sure that YouTube is not re-processing the video on their servers to serve it up so that it plays well on a device like TV. A meter or maybe someone's TV that actually shows the fps rate it is receiving would be HUGE.
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Potentially I could be fooled by a 480p video versus an 1080p video... But not with frame rates. If you had 2 of the same videos... One 30fps & the other 60fps and gave me the "Pepsi challenge", I would be able to tell you 100% of the time if it's 30 or 60. It's very easy for me to see. 60fps just POPS for me. I agree the average Joe may not notice, but to gamers, frame rate is very important. Watching a first person driving game or shooter at 60fps is VERY different from watching it at 30fps. Frame rates are the reason why a lot of gamers buy $600 video cards instead of a $300 Playstation 4. Sure you can play games with great graphics on a PS4 @ 30fps... But if you want to play that same game at 60fps, you get yourself a decent video card and it's a much different experience. You can already live stream on YouTube.. But YouTube is gearing up and allowing 60fps live streams for gaming. It's because the difference between 30fps & 60fps in video games is HUGE.
There aren't many people talking about the Apple TV playing back 60fps because there isn't a whole lot of 720p 60fps content on the web. Before Oct. last year, www.giantbomb.com was the only site I knew that produced 720/60 videos on a regular basis.
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HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
Update: I finally managed to get to play the 1080p60fps video I uploaded to YouTube. It played smoothly.
This is the same file that I dropped into iTunes and tried to play a few days ago: it tried to play but after about a second, the video locked up and only sound continued to play. About every 4 seconds, there would be 1 new still image frame from the video frozen until another 4 seconds had passed and a new still frame could display.
Conceptually, if the YouTube-uploaded version is an unaltered copy of the local version, I expected the same result at best. However, it played just fine (no video frame freeze).
I had hoped that that might be a way to test the idea that maybe the YouTube app might have some new player "hack" that was getting around the idea of theTV3 long-spun hardware limitation of outputting only 30fps. But I realize that there are 2 possibilities here:
As is, we have a few sets of eyes certain they can see the difference between 60fps vs. 30fps playback at 720p, and the owners of those eyes believe the YouTube app is serving up 720p 60fps to their HDTVs. I couldn't duplicate the above test with a 720p 60fps file, as the local copy of that video played just fine the other day, which could mean maybe theTV is able to play 720p 60fps OR, as I suspect, there's enough spare horsepower in the TV to convert 60fps to 30fps on the fly in a 720p file (but it can't seem to do that in a normal 1080p file).
Long story short: IMO, we're still leaning on little more than a few sets of subjective judgements and the intriguing result of the flicker test video referenced by roidy in post #9 (though I question if maybe that too is being down converted and/or is already converted to 30fps forTV at YouTube). My skepticism continues because Apple has shared 30fps Max specs and I think this would be big enough news in the AV world to have been highlighted by more than a couple of users posting on rumors sites. There is a lot of 720p60fps video out there (stuff like gopro cameras and similar defaulted to that just a few years ago) and somebody in the AV world would be excited to be able to play 720p at 60fps enough to announce this to the world. Do a search and you find a link back to this thread and a link to a similar thread from a few years ago, also on this site. No AV video review or tech sites have published anything supporting this belief (and I think they definitely would or would have if this was actually true).
We need someone with either a meter (probably a frame capture card in a PC that can show incoming fps rate) or a TV with an info screen that will show what fps rate it is receiving fromTV to load up YouTube with that flicker test video and confirm or refute that what is coming out of the TV is indeed 60fps video. If someone can do this, please try to test both 1080p 60fps and 720p 60fps clips from YouTube (just use a search feature- there appears to be plenty of both uploaded there). I suspect all such playback is going to show 30fps on the meter but this would be a genuine discovery if it really is able to output either HD format at 60fps.
This is the same file that I dropped into iTunes and tried to play a few days ago: it tried to play but after about a second, the video locked up and only sound continued to play. About every 4 seconds, there would be 1 new still image frame from the video frozen until another 4 seconds had passed and a new still frame could display.
Conceptually, if the YouTube-uploaded version is an unaltered copy of the local version, I expected the same result at best. However, it played just fine (no video frame freeze).
I had hoped that that might be a way to test the idea that maybe the YouTube app might have some new player "hack" that was getting around the idea of the
TV3 long-spun hardware limitation of outputting only 30fps. But I realize that there are 2 possibilities here:- The hack is real, such that it is even able to play back 1080p60fps that the stock player app from iTunes-sourced video can't, OR
- YouTube is reprocessing uploads or possibly feeding versions of downloads adapting to the playback device's capabilities. In other words, YouTube is altering the upload or download to serve up a 30fps version of the 60fps file.
As is, we have a few sets of eyes certain they can see the difference between 60fps vs. 30fps playback at 720p, and the owners of those eyes believe the YouTube app is serving up 720p 60fps to their HDTVs. I couldn't duplicate the above test with a 720p 60fps file, as the local copy of that video played just fine the other day, which could mean maybe the
TV is able to play 720p 60fps OR, as I suspect, there's enough spare horsepower in the TV to convert 60fps to 30fps on the fly in a 720p file (but it can't seem to do that in a normal 1080p file).Long story short: IMO, we're still leaning on little more than a few sets of subjective judgements and the intriguing result of the flicker test video referenced by roidy in post #9 (though I question if maybe that too is being down converted and/or is already converted to 30fps for
TV at YouTube). My skepticism continues because Apple has shared 30fps Max specs and I think this would be big enough news in the AV world to have been highlighted by more than a couple of users posting on rumors sites. There is a lot of 720p60fps video out there (stuff like gopro cameras and similar defaulted to that just a few years ago) and somebody in the AV world would be excited to be able to play 720p at 60fps enough to announce this to the world. Do a search and you find a link back to this thread and a link to a similar thread from a few years ago, also on this site. No AV video review or tech sites have published anything supporting this belief (and I think they definitely would or would have if this was actually true).We need someone with either a meter (probably a frame capture card in a PC that can show incoming fps rate) or a TV with an info screen that will show what fps rate it is receiving from
TV to load up YouTube with that flicker test video and confirm or refute that what is coming out of the TV is indeed 60fps video. If someone can do this, please try to test both 1080p 60fps and 720p 60fps clips from YouTube (just use a search feature- there appears to be plenty of both uploaded there). I suspect all such playback is going to show 30fps on the meter but this would be a genuine discovery if it really is able to output either HD format at 60fps.
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It may be difficult to determine exactly what resolution YouTube is playing the video at on ATV. When you upload a video to YT, and it's processing... It's actually creating multiple versions of that video at different resolutions. When you play back a video, YT is constantly working in the background and changing which version/resolution is playing to give you uninterrupted playback. It all depends on the connection between you and YouTube's servers. On desktop browsers and even the iPhone, you can manually select the resolution you want. I doubt there's a way to do that on ATV. Yesterday I played a 60fps YT vid on ATV and it started out in HD @30fps. Then it bumped up to 60fps. Then it stopped and buffered and dropped down to a very pixelated resolution like 360p or 240p. I stopped the video and hit play again. It started in HD 60fps and stayed there. Hopefully there's a way to measure that, too. I can tell the difference between SD & HD, but telling the difference between compressed YouTube videos @ 720p & 1080p is a bit more difficult.
You didn't mention the Playstation 3 and Playstation 4. The YouTube app for those systems supports 60fps videos. Even though I'm the only person on the interwebs who is saying it, YouTube on Apple TV does support 60fps.