YouTube App can now play videos @ 60fps

[NameUndecided]

This is pretty funny. Just about an hour ago I started browsing through YouTube on my Apple TV and noticed for the very first time [through Apple TV] a gameplay video playing at what really seems to be (could it be?!?!?) 60fps.

I don't believe I've ever gone out and tried a 60fps video explicitly before, but this is the first time I've really actually noticed a random video playing this way through the device.

So I did a search for "Metal Gear 60fps" to watch some Phantom Pain trailers in 60fps and can confirm that I very much notice the difference. I watch these MGS Phantom Pain trailers and some gameplay demos almost just about every week (because I'm f*ing hyped!!) and I absolutely would have noticed the 60fps when playing through my television if it had happened before and I totally can plainly see the difference now.
The important caveat being -- I've no idea if the specific video posts I've watched before today had 60fps as an option. Today is the first time I've specifically included "60fps" when searching through the Apple TV.

I came to this forum actually just to ask if this feature had recently been added and I saw this thread at the top of the page.

I'm not great with the technical bits and it really could be that this is some other framerate number higher than 24 and not exactly 60(?). But I'm just saying -- the difference was entirely noticeable enough for me to come and ask about it here.

 

[Billy B.]

This is pretty funny. Just about an hour ago I started browsing through YouTube on my Apple TV and noticed for the very first time [through Apple TV] a gameplay video playing at what really seems to be (could it be?!?!?) 60fps.

I don't believe I've ever gone out and tried a 60fps video explicitly before, but this is the first time I've really actually noticed a random video playing this way through the device.

So I did a search for "Metal Gear 60fps" to watch some Phantom Pain trailers in 60fps and can confirm that I very much notice the difference. I watch these MGS Phantom Pain trailers and some gameplay demos almost just about every week (because I'm f*ing hyped!!) and I absolutely would have noticed the 60fps when playing through my television if it had happened before and I totally can plainly see the difference now.
The important caveat being -- I've no idea if the specific video posts I've watched before today had 60fps as an option. Today is the first time I've specifically included "60fps" when searching through the Apple TV.

I came to this forum actually just to ask if this feature had recently been added and I saw this thread at the top of the page.

I'm not great with the technical bits and it really could be that this is some other framerate number higher than 24 and not exactly 60(?). But I'm just saying -- the difference was entirely noticeable enough for me to come and ask about it here.

Thank god I'm not the only one who can see it! lol! I did the same thing as you. I played a video that I didn't know was 60fps. I was so sursprised how smooth it was playing that I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me.
I've actually been watching 60fps videos on ATV for well over a year. www.giantbomb.com has been making 60fps vids long before YouTube. You can Airplay them, and if it's a 60fps game, it will playback smooth as silk. Like THIS one.
I do agree with you about the frame rate. It may not be exactly 60fps, but it's noticeably well above 30.
I'm a huge MGS fan, too! I loved Ground Zeros! Phantom Pain is going to be a weirder, bigger, better version of that. I can't wait to fulton everything is sight! lol

 

[NameUndecided]

Quick off topic: I only got my PS4/only console about two months ago and Ground Zeroes, that "demo" of a game as some people dismissed it, has easily been my most played and enjoyed.

And on topic: It slipped my mind that earlier in the year I have actually played, through the Apple TV, a 60fps Avatar clip sample I downloaded just to see if it would work. It does play and it looks super smooth.

So yeah, I'm excited that it's enabled on YouTube now, and I'm still left wondering: "How long has this been a feature??"

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I'll hope right with you guys that your eyes are seeing what you think they are seeing. In the meantime, somebody will eventually come into this thread with a frame capture card in a PC capable of verifying or refuting this in a fully objective way. My suggestion would be to build up a good list of both 1080p 60fps and 720p 60fps YouTube video links to the videos you are sure are playing at 60fps. That way the person with the card could test several of those specific files and see if any of them are actually pumping 60fps out of the TV. Note, that this isn't as simple as them doing a search for videos with descriptions that claims they are 60fps, as I could upload a video today with a description that says it's 16K 240fps 3D. So good lists are going to point them right to specific videos where your eyes know for sure they are seeing 1080p and 720p at 60fps via the YouTube app.

This would be a whopper discovery if it turns out to be true. I hope it proves to be true. I've got years of homemade video mastered in 60fps awaiting the day they can play on an TV (none play correctly now, but they are all 1080p 60fps). I shoot at 1080p 60fps, edit them at 60fps, then render the final version at both 60fps and 30fps, with the latter dropped into iTunes for TV playback and the former stored for the day that Apple rolls out an TV that CAN play 1080p 60fps. I look forward to dragging all of my 30fps videos to the trashcan and replacing them with years worth of 60fps copies.

If the YouTube player app can push 60fps out of TV, then the default player app should be able to be updated to do the same (the excuse of the hardware not being able to do more than 30fps would no longer cover the lack of a simple software update- certainly if YouTube app programmers can push 60fps, Apple programmers can push 60fps). So again, I hope your eyes are seeing real 60fps playback from TV. Could someone with a frame capture card or video meter confirm this?

 

[oneMadRssn]

I'll hope right with you guys that your eyes are seeing what you think they are seeing. In the meantime, somebody will eventually come into this thread with a frame capture card in a PC capable of verifying or refuting this in a fully objective way.

To me, the youtube black and white flashing test that someone mentioned above (quoted below) is definitive and objective proof. What would a frame capture do that this test doesn't already verify?

See below:

WARNING!!!! Do not watch this video if you suffer from epilepsy or are sensitive to flashing images.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8adrIxAtkLU

WARNING!!!! Do not watch this video if you suffer from epilepsy or are sensitive to flashing images.


This video seems to indicate the aTV YouTube app does infact play 60fps content. The left half of the image is 60fps and the right half is 30fps, the way I understand it is if the player only supports 30fps then the left half of the image should just be a solid color.

However!!! Once downloaded and imported into iTunes and then played on the aTV using home sharing it only seems to playback at 30fps, and yes the downloaded file is still 60fps and plays back fine at 60fps on computer.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I'm not trusting what that is implying. For example, you or I could shoot 4K video at 60fps and upload it to YouTube. It will show on YouTube as 4K and 60fps. The description could say it is 4K 60fps too. I could overlay text on screen that will show during playback "you are watching a 4K 60fps video to test whether TV3 can play it."

YouTube receives that video, processes it, and makes it available to TV via the YouTube app.

It plays just fine.

Is that conclusive proof that TV can play 4K 60fps video too?

The file name, description, and video text overlay all confirm it is 4K 60fps and it's playing on an TV, so the TV must be able to play 4K 60fps too. If we can get a few guys to passionately say they can clearly see the difference of 4K vs. something lessor when they see it, that could be a mirror of this thread.

Here's an 8K video sample uploaded to YouTube:

Will that video play on TV via the YouTube app? If so, does that mean TV can play 8K video? Update: I just tried it on TV and it played perfectly smoothly and looked super sharp, better than about any streaming 1080p I've seen. There was an 8K overlay showing the whole time it was on screen so it must have been the 8K version I was seeing. Shall I go start a new thread proclaiming TV3 can play 8K video? My evidence? It looked super sharp to my eyes, it played perfectly smoothly, the description and overlay confirmed it was 8K. Hopefully, that somewhat makes the point.

That roidy video is compelling. These guys confidence that they know 60fps is also compelling but a little more suspect (IMO)- eyes are easily fooled. Magicians make a living mostly on tricking people's eyes. Their assistants don't really turn into tigers, etc.

As part of testing this possibility, I personally uploaded a 1080p 60fps that would NOT play on my TV via iTunes but it played just fine through the YouTube app. So either TV can also play 1080p 60fps video via the YouTube app or YouTube is "processing" 60fps that I am certain is 60fps video (because I shot it myself) and serving up a "processed" video to TV.

THAT is what I think we're getting even with the roidy video- a 60fps video converted to 30fps.

But, what puts all this to bed is anyone with a HDMI frame capture card or meter hooking it to the TV and then playing these videos that we are so confident are 60fps videos. The frame capture card software should be able to tell if it is receiving 60fps or 30fps or 24fps, etc. My guess is that it would all be 30fps based on published hardware specs and that this discovery is made on a rumors site with no AV enthusiasts or hardware review site confirming or touting it themselves. This would be a fairly BIG deal to the AV crowd, yet all we have to support the hypothesis is 2 threads at MacRumors.

Per my 4k 60fps hypothetical or the 8K video sample above, that same frame capture card would certainly confirm that it is not receiving 4K or 8K and (probably) not 60fps there either, because we know TV 3 can't play 4K or 8K video at 4K or 8K.

I desire the hypothesis to be true as much as anyone else (I have a ton of 60fps content awaiting the day it can overwrite a ton of 30fps copies in my iTunes library) but I'm skeptical... or maybe I should say hopeful but skeptical?

These AV guys show up here sometimes. One of them is going to have just such a HDMI frame grabbing card or box. Or maybe someone has a TV that will show fps in an info screen associated with the source of video being played. Either way, either option will be true objective proof.

 

[NameUndecided]

On the flicker test, if it's going 60fps, should both sides look completely identical and appear flashing at the same rate or does the left side flash twice as quickly as the right? On both my MacBook and my television screen (connected to Apple TV), the left side flickers much faster (probably 2x) than the right, which I'm figuring is the way it's supposed to be.

These are the info for the Avatar clip I mentioned in my previous post:
H264, 14366.7kbps, 1280×720, 59.9fps
AC-3, 448.0kbps, 48.0kHz 32bit, 2 channels

It plays on my ATV just fine. iTunes won't allow me to load it on any iOS devices, though.

All I can continue to say is that between this purported 60fps and the "normal" frame rate that I'm used to, the difference is extremely noticeable to me. And it didn't take a video that I knew was 60fps before watching to notice it. It took me watching a random video that made me ask, "is this a higher frame rate?" and double check with higher framerate versions of videos that I've seen "normal" versions of plenty before to say, "yes. this is definitely smoother and different."

I'm not saying with absolute certainty it's 60 because I don't have the tools and I'm not an expert. But I would be hugely surprised if it was capping out at 30 and I was somehow mistaking it for something higher. Isn't PAL video set at 30frames? Because I've seen plenty of that before. I've been watching a few more results when searching for 60fps on the ATV YouTube app. This video through the ATV is indeed, perceptively, to me, matching the smoothness I've seen in games and on YouTube through the computer.

 

[Billy B.]

I'm not trusting what that is implying. For example, you or I could shoot 4K video at 60fps and upload it to YouTube. It will show on YouTube as 4K and 60fps. The description could say it is 4K 60fps too. I could overlay text on screen that will show during playback "you are watching a 4K 60fps video to test whether TV3 can play it."

We don't have to rely on the descriptions of YouTube videos. With the desktop browser YouTube you can just click the settings icon and it's will show you the highest resolution & frame rate that is possible for that video.

Obviously we don't know what it is playing back on the ATV, but we can see videos that are verified as 60fps look much smoother than a 30fps video. The original file of the above video was 1080p/60fps. But as you can see, it can also playback on YouTube @ 720p/60fps. I'm guessing that's the version that is playing back on ATV. With the tests we did, I'm guessing 1080p/60fps is a little too much data for the ATV's A5 processor to handle.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I appreciate your enthusiasm. I even share it as I'd like to have 60fps playback too. I possess hundreds of videos I've shot at 60fps just waiting for the chance to replace their 30fps copies in iTunes. But just because we can see a menu list on the computer's screen doesn't mean anything in terms of what is arriving at TV from YouTube. Perhaps you're imagining that since YouTube ONLY lists 720p60fps on the computer menu that THAT would be the only version of 720p available from YouTube for any device?

I fired up an older Mac with a graphics card from many years ago. I clicked the link in your post to take me to YouTube and that same video. I clicked that resolution icon and it DOESN'T show the 60 (fps) option next to 1080p and 720p, just the option for 1080p and 720p for that same video...

I suspect that YouTube makes versions for various devices with a goal toward delivering a smoothly-running video. Where applicable, it will list what can be played on the device connected. For a device like TV where one can't choose which version, it just feeds it whatever version of the file seems most likely to play per some algorithm. As you can see with the image, the older Mac that probably can't play 60fps isn't given that playback option.

 

[Billy B.]

OK. So I referenced what is touted as an 8K video. If you choose it's menu option on a computer YouTube, you'll see that it lists up to 2160p (which is 4K). Play it on the computer and it looks sharp. Play it on TV and it looks sharp. So TV can play 4K?

We know that the ATV's A5 processor can't handle 1080p/60fps so 4k is impossible. My old phone, an iPhone 4s, can play 720p/60fps video @ 60fps. It also has an A5 processor. 720p/60fps is very possible on ATV and my eyes are telling me the same.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I'm simply doubting it. Why? Apples own specs page cap it at 30fps: http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs/ Why keep such a terrific capability secret?

No AV enthusiast site seems to have noticed. The ONLY references to this capability is your thread and another thread, both here at MacRumors. Nowhere else on the entire Internet appears to have anyone else claiming TV3 can play 720p at 60fps. This would be a BIG DEAL to AV people. It would be out there in a lot of places if it could do it.

I fed it my own (self shot, self rendered) 720p60fps video yesterday. It played fine. So that could mean that it really can play 60fps or the A5 has enough horsepower to convert a 720p60fps file to 720p30fps on the fly. I ran the video at 60fps and I ran a copy at 30fps and they looked the same. I too think I have a sharp eye for those differences but I couldn't see a difference between 30fps and 60fps copies of this same video. So again, I think what is coming out of TV is 30fps when fed either file.

I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong here. I definitely want a 60fps TV and it would be terrific to learn the TVs we already own can do it. But all we have in 35 posts are a few guys subjectively proclaiming their eyes are such they can see that it is playing 60fps and a compelling test video referenced by roidy that implies the same.

Apple hasn't said a word. YouTube hasn't said a word explicitly about TV being able to play 60fps. AV enthusiast sites haven't said a word. The AV pros haven't yet hopped in here, tried a few of these 60fps videos and confirmed or refuted it with hardware that should objectively clarify what comes out of TV. I hope they do and I hope YouTube has found a way to make their software overcome what has long been perceived to be a hardware limitation of 30fps max. If so, that will be GREAT!!! I hope it happens.

 

[Billy B.]

I didn't say it wasn't possible. I'm simply doubting it. Why? Apples own specs page cap it at 30fps: http://www.apple.com/appletv/specs/ Why keep such a terrific capability secret?

No AV enthusiast site seems to have noticed. The ONLY references to this capability is your thread and another thread, both here at MacRumors. Nowhere else on the entire Internet appears to have anyone else claiming TV3 can play 720p at 60fps. This would be a BIG DEAL to AV people. It would be out there in a lot of places if it could do it.

You'd think you'd hear SOME news or people talking about it somewhere! lol! That's what makes this so strange and I can't blame you for doubting. My only guess as to why is maybe not a lot people can see the difference between 30fps vs. 60fps. This site asks the same question. To my eyes, 30fps vs. 60fps is MUCH more noticeable than 480p vs. 1080p.

 

[NameUndecided]

I'd like some AV experts with real measuring equipment to test and give their opinion as well.

I'd like to know if it's really playing 60fps or something close to that -- OR, I want someone to explain how videos that have the 60fps option on YouTube's site are able to give such a convincing illusion of being smoother if they're really only playing 30fps. And please don't say "placebo" because I know what I'm seeing across multiple videos is very different from normal video playback.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

One possibility is that you are basically FIRST to catch this. As I referenced earlier, maybe YouTube "hacked" their way to 60fps via TV, exceeding the posted specs by Apple. That's at least plausible. The new YouTube app just showed up in the last few weeks, so the AV Pros might have assumed "status quo" rather than anyone giving it a new test. This thread is already indexed, so someone with a frame grabbing card/box will show up sooner or later and put it to the test. I suggest building a list of several videos at both 720p60fps and 1080p60fps on YouTube that your eyes are perceiving play 60fps on TV. When they get here, such lists will make it easy for them to go right to relevant samples, hook their TV output to their frame capture card/box and see what comes out.

To try to get us all an objective answer sooner than later, I started a new thread in the Video forum: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/have-a-60fps-hdmi-frame-capture-card-box.1895351/ I've noticed even hollywood talent in that forum area so we're likely to get the answer soon from someone with the equipment to test this. Hopefully, they'll do the testing and post their result in this thread here. If not though, I'll bring their test result back to this thread if one of you don't beat me to it. Hopefully, we'll all know for sure soon.

 

[cynics]

You didn't mention the Playstation 3 and Playstation 4. The YouTube app for those systems supports 60fps videos. Even though I'm the only person on the interwebs who is saying it, YouTube on Apple TV does support 60fps.

Damnt, you trolled me and I didn't even see it coming. Freakin' Reddit link source? Aaarrggghhh!

/ unsubscribe

 

[oneMadRssn]

I'm not trusting what that is implying. For example, you or I could shoot 4K video at 60fps and upload it to YouTube. It will show on YouTube as 4K and 60fps. The description could say it is 4K 60fps too. I could overlay text on screen that will show during playback "you are watching a 4K 60fps video to test whether TV3 can play it."

YouTube receives that video, processes it, and makes it available to TV via the YouTube app.

It plays just fine.

Is that conclusive proof that TV can play 4K 60fps video too?

But it's not doing any of that, it's not just any video. It's a black and white flicker/strobe, where one side is set to flicker at 60hz and the other side is set to flicker at 30hz. When watching it, any person can easily see whether one side is flashing faster (read, at a higher rate) than the other, or whether one side is flashing at all. There is special equipment needed to see that. Indeed, the video itself is the special / equipment designed to test this very question.

No processing or youtube magic can take a 60hz flicker and convert it to 30fps where it still steadily flickers faster than the 30hz flicker next to it. It's a mathematical impossibility. Therefore, yes, it is 100% conclusive proof.

If there were some processing going on, the 60hz side would either (1) display gray due to blending two adjacent 60hz frames, black and white, together to make it 30hz; (2) display black due to dropping every odd frame; (3) display white due to dropping every even frame; or (4) flicker at a inconsistent and random rate due to an intelligent 60-30 conversion that tries to interpolate and smooth the frames.

 

[lostless]

I've already done the "objective test" over on this thread
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/have-a-60fps-hdmi-frame-capture-card-box.1895351/#post-21519636
The reason I think people haven't made a big deal about this, is that most people just don't care, or even know about frame rates. Most material online is 30/24fps and anything above that looks too "home movie ish" and is avoided. Only ones that are mostly excited about this are gamers and I doubt most of them use the YouTube app on an Apple TV. I don't and would of never noticed if this thread did not pop up. I either use my Xbox or stream from my phone to the Apple TV, which only sends a 30 fps feed.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

I care about 60fps. I shoot a lot of sports video. The so-called "spanish soap opera" effect is real at fps >30fps but <=30fps just can't do a great job with fast movement (like shooting sports) comparable to 60fps. Thus, my interest in this thread is driven by the same hope as the original poster... that the TV we already own could play back 60fps video. I have hundreds of them that I've shot myself, all rendered with a 30fps copy so TV can play them back until we get an TV that can break the 30fps barrier.

Lostless, your test seems convincing enough for me. While still relying on human eyes, if you are certain you are shooting 60fps and you are seeing clear movement in each frame on frame-by-frame playback, my concern about our eyes being fooled into what we want to see seems overcome. Thanks for going to the trouble.

And thank you for doing the additional test of 1080p60fps too as that's where my own interest lies (all of my video is shot that way) so I'm still out of luck unless I want to cut that video down to 720p60fps versions. I think I'll still stand by hoping for a 1080p60fps TV4 or maybe I'll just sub in a MacMini + Plex or similar if we don't get a "4" soon.

And way to go Billy B, for being perhaps first to notice this with enough conviction to actually write it down in a post. I've learned to not trust subjective opinions around here as they tend to always be overly biased to the positive for anything related to Apple. So (obviously) I don't trust "eyes" evidence even when it seems pretty compelling with multiple people saying the same. But apparently your eyes really could see the difference. Way to go!

 

[Billy B.]

lostless is my hero right now! lol HobeSoundDarryl you deserve some praise, too.. for pushing until we got undeniable proof. I gotta admit, it was frustrating because I could see it, and knew without a doubt it was 60fps... but I didn't know how to prove it. It was worth it because now we all know for sure the Apple TV can play 60fps vids.

 

[Billy B.]

Just a quick update... You can now play 60fps YouTube videos on the iPhone! This one was MUCH easier to prove. lol
[SEE HERE]

 

[hax0rkine]

http://en.savefrom.net - for those folks who wants to download YouTube videos to get the file for testing purposes.