YouTube App update

Discussion in 'Apple TV and Home Theater' started by cynics, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. cynics macrumors G4

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    #1
    I haven’t seen this mentioned or maybe it’s just not thread worthy but it appears YouTube finally updated their AppleTV app.

    Layout is light years beyond their previous app. Being able to EASILY subscribe to channels, up/down vote videos, and even see ‘stats for nerds’.

    Unfortunately and probably to no ones surprise.....

    C1C1AB5C-666B-4664-9B8E-10B01165664D.jpeg

    Obviously no attempt at software decoding (if realistically possible) was attempted. Personally I don’t blame them although it would be nice.

    So what do you guys think about the much needed app revision? And how do you guys feel about the 4K war? Has h265 lost? Still undecided? Google has quite the commitment to VP9, think Apple will ever bend and make an ATV with a VP9 hardware decoder?
     
  2. priitv8 macrumors 68040

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    #2
    Is the VP9 codec even relevant outside YouTube-world??
     
  3. cynics thread starter macrumors G4

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    #3
    Netflix mobile is starting to use of VP9. Google Movies and TV shows (obviously) use VP9 to some extent according to wiki.

    BTW I was just asking. I'm not trying to imply "HEVC has lost!".

    Netflix is obviously a big deal, they have an effect of changing the market as others play follow the leader. I think the problem is (for me anyway) many devices just support both and it doesn't matter. However Apples reluctance is only harming the quality of their products for those that use services such as youtube.
     
  4. priitv8 macrumors 68040

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    #4
    Yeah. Me too. Because I do not see the VP codec anywhere except YT.
    Indeed, HEVC is also not yet widely used, especially in hardware platforms (eg camcorders).
    But AVC is really everywhere, also on the consumer-level encoding side (not considering the professional RAW market).
    PS I remember, Microsoft also tried to spin off VC1. How popular is that today, apart from being used on some blurays?
    PPS Some German satellite channels still stick to MPEG-2 with generous bitrate and the result is very pleasing to the eye!
     
  5. Solver macrumors 6502a

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    #5
    So, should Apple add this special codec into their firmware so all Apple TVs would have it, or should Google add this special codec into their app?
    That is the basic question.
     
  6. MagicBoy macrumors 68040

    MagicBoy

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    #6
    Not a fan of the updated app. Liked the simplicity of the old one.

    Thumbs down YouTube.
     
  7. HobeSoundDarryl, Feb 8, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018

    HobeSoundDarryl macrumors 604

    HobeSoundDarryl

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    #7
    You can't get objectivity in any Apple endorsed option vs. anything else here. If it was Apple vs. God, a good chunk of this crowd would choose Apple... or not recognize that there is a difference between the two.;)

    Basically, this is an issue of "open source" vs. a source that nets Apple some money. A poll with a better chance of objectivity would cut Apple out of the question and simply ask "open source" vs. "closed source." As soon as we can see that Apple takes a side in ANYTHING, THAT becomes THE side that most of us take too. It doesn't even matter if it might generally be bad for us consumers: Apple knows best. If Apple is against something, we're against it too. If Apple then flips to being for it, we flip to be for it too.

    In some parallel universe it might be Apple pushing VP9 and- say- Samsung pushing h.265. There, "we" would be pounding the tables about the great benefits of open source and even superiority of VP9 (whether there's any or not would not matter).

    Regardless of how a bunch of Apple fans vote, if we want 4K via YouTube, Apple would need to make VP9 work in :apple:TV. If they won't, then we need to turn to other options to access such stuff if we want. All the griping we can muster against Google/YouTube is pretty much the same as all the griping we can shoot at Android or Windows- it won't make the rest of the world change to comply to what Apple wants. Walled garden is both benefit and anti-consumer, sometimes at the same time.

    My own take: Apple should make :apple:TV capable of playing mainstream audio & video codecs to simply make it more useful to users. I don't expect them to do that but I wish they would. The more they aim for "lock in" the more they also "lock out." As consumers want- but cannot get- what they want, they are basically pressed to get it other ways... or do without. That seems corporate-centric or profit-centric over customer-centric.
     
  8. Sanlitun, Feb 8, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018

    Sanlitun macrumors 6502

    Sanlitun

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    #8
    The design of the new app is absolutely terrible. Moving through subscriptions is nearly impossible as the only navigation method is a left swipe through a channel list displayed in alphabetical order.

    One of the big reasons I use the Apple TV over the Nvidia Shield was the much much better YouTube app, so this is a major let down.

    The new app seems designed to make it difficult to get to what you want to watch and to drive you towards what YouTube wants you to watch.
     
  9. HobeSoundDarryl macrumors 604

    HobeSoundDarryl

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    #9
    Whew. You should visit the HomePod threads. :eek:
     
  10. cynics thread starter macrumors G4

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    #10
    I disagree, respectfully. However this is completely subjective of course.

    You are correct, if you want to scroll to a particular channel the way they have it setup is completely obnoxious. I'm subscribed to about 70 channels so getting to one at the end is a PITA. But as someone that uses YouTube a lot as a source of entertainment I rarely need to do that since I just scroll through recent activity.

    However for me personally the pros outweigh the cons and here are some of my reasons...

    The recommendations are identical to the old app (my ATV4 hasn't been updated). However the new app allows you to narrow that focus with categories of interest. For me gaming, technology, etc etc are listed at the top making it much easier to discover new channels I may be interested in.

    A major problem with me for the old app was its inability to refresh. This is a problem with 70 subscriptions because I could watch a couple videos while new ones are released and I wouldn't know. I was constantly closing and reopening the app to force it to refresh. The new app refreshes as you switch things in the sidebar, ex Home to Subscriptions...

    Another problem with the old app was subscribing and unsubscribing to channels. You'd literally needed to manual search for the channel which was just stupid. With the new app you dont even need to stop the video to subscribe. Conversely if you are watching a channel you are subscribed to and you get tired of it, its easy to unsub.

    With the old app you couldn't like or dislike at all. The new app makes this just as easy as subscribing to a channel.

    Closed captioning isn't even comparable. The new app allows you to change font, adjust font size and color, etc etc.

    While a video is playing the new app has suggestions based on the video playing. Under that it has more uploads from that channel. This is infinity useful for me while looking for DIY type things or just skimming through to see what else that channel has to offer.

    Casting support works great. While AirPlay is generally my goto Casting allows you to queue videos and allows autoplay.

    I also love stats for nerds for checking for network bottlenecks and/or video resolutions.

    Unlike Netflix overwhelming approach I do like the app preview of the new YouTube app.

    If anything I always found the old app to be pushing me toward content not the new one. It didn't have suggestions, it didn't have specific categories in recommendations, and it didn't even refresh.

    Looking at the old app the only positive things I can say about it is like you mention my channels are easier to get to and its....simple? I'm actually surprised I dealt with it so long, makes me question how big of an Apple fan boy I really am (as I still watch 1080p on a 4k HDR TV lol).
     
  11. RamGuy macrumors 6502a

    RamGuy

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    #12
    I can copy the feedback I sent to Google; In short I hate the update in pretty much every single way.


    Dear, Google and the YouTube-team

    Please remove or at least do some serious work with this "new app" for Apple TV and tvOS. I'm not normally one to complain, it seems to be the norm these days to complain about any kind of noticeable change to software like everyone complains each and every time Facebook does a UX-change and update to Facebook and Facebook Messenger or when Snapchat recently did a UX-overhaul of Snapchat etc.. People tend to hate change for whatever reason.

    I don't want to be that guy, I don't like to be that guy. But this update is just something that doesn't work for me, and its even more hated by my fiancee which is even more important to me. You know how it is. Happy wife, happy life and so forth..


    The biggest problem with this new update is how its no longer a native-app on tvOS. Its just a wrapper for your YouTube.com/TV web-application. This is a rather lazy approach, and I'm somewhat surprised that its even allowed on the tvOS AppStore as Apple does not allow such wrappers onto the iOS AppStore, but I guess they have different rules, guidelines and terms and conditions for each platform.

    This approach works out really bad for tvOS. As with most "one-web-application-fits-all-platforms" approaches it lacks any kind of platform specific features and optimisations. This becomes abundantly clear with this new version as it behaves so much more poorly in so many ways compared to the previous version. Even basic things like integration towards the Apple Siri Remote is gone which makes navigation feels slow, wonky and horrible. It seems like you utilise zero tvOS specific API's so the Siri Remote's touchpad is not just emulating clicks in this new app resulting in slow and unintuitive navigation and control. There is no swiping, swiping only results in a emulated direction click, there is no acceleration when swiping faster and if you swipe for a extended amount of time there is no logical correlation with the swiping motions and whats being emulated in the app so even when you stop swiping the app will keep moving as it has registered additional emulated clicks compared to what you might have intended. It looks and feels horrible when the app keeps going when you have stopped swiping on the remote. It often misinterpretation the direction of swipes and everything.

    So we went from a version that was perfectly integrated with the remote, to a version that doesn't seem to integrate at all.


    And as this is just a wrapper for the web-application it also uses the YouTube HTML-player instead of the native tvOS player like you did previously. This have removed support for automated frame rate switching and automated dynamic range switching. It also features playback controls that don't follow or correlate with pretty much any other tvOS-app so it feels weird and clunky to use. Its even more hampered by the fact that the remote functions as badly as it does.

    The change of video-player has also changed how ads work and are being displayed. Previously we only had ads being displayed before playback, but now we have ads all-over the videos. There might be some before, several during playback etc.. This doesn't seem to follow Apple's strict rules for non-intrusive ads? What is going on here? This i degrading the user-experience by a lot. Where I had one 5 second to 15 second ad before, I might now have several 5 second ads popping up out of nowhere during playback in the most intrusive way with a box right in the middle of the screen with uneven audio levels? What is going on here?


    Other than that the new UX-design doesn't comply with any tvOS guidelines or logic. There is no longer a top-bar you can easily access by swiping down from the top of the remote.On my 65-inch TV it feels like the UX-design is just blown-up as everything is just crazy large for no apparent reason? Why waste so much space on a always showing search bar, way too much information and large text under video thumbnails so we only have 3 1/2 video shown at once compared to the grid of 12 videos we had before. Combine this inefficient use of screen realestate with how badly navigation on the Siri Remote works it results in a really inefficient and clunky experience.

    The worst part of the new UX-design is the "Subscriptions" list. What is going on here? Its a endless list of huge circular icons? The icons are way too large and makes navigation and getting to the correct channel a shore. My fiancee are subscribed to over 50 channels and this UI only shows three icons at the time on a single row. She spent over 1 minute navigating from letter A to letter M. Its just not good design at all.



    We didn't really get that many new features either? The only real thing that was added besides a different UX-design has been access to like/dislike and the capability of viewing and clicking embedded links in videos and that's pretty much it. We still lack access to comments, we still can't add videos to playlists or watch-later. And we lost any kind of optimisation towards tvOS and the Siri Remote, we lost automatic frame rate and dynamic range switching, we lost the capability to not have intrusive ads, we lost the option to shuffle playlists.



    I do understand its easier for you to have this "one-app-for-every-platform" approach. But for heavens sake, at least try to optimise and integrate it towards the tvOS-platform. The way the Siri Remote works and navigates and how we have lost each and every tvOS specific feature is just poor customer service.

    At least provide the previous app separately for users that appreciate platform optimised applications.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 9, 2018 ---

    This is a pathetic excuse. The new version on longer uses the native tvOS video-player so its no longer limited to OS specific decoders. They could easily add VP9 decoding into their own video-player just like VLC and Infuse/Infuse Pro have added tons of additional codec into their own video-players making them capable of playing a bunch of files not supported in the native tvOS video-player.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 9, 2018 ---
    Everyone that wants to leave feedback about the new app should do so directly to the correct channels;

    You can give feedback directly to Google/YouTube; https://www.youtube.com/tv_feedback
    And you can also give feedback directly to Apple; https://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html

    And it doesn't hurt to give everyone a tweet as well;

    @teamyoutube @youtube @google @Apple

    There is also a thread over at the Google forums for feedback; https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/youtube/O_QjzLHptbc
    --- Post Merged, Feb 9, 2018 ---

    Apple doesn't earn anything on pushing HEVC/H.265, they have to pay the license as anyone else. And even-though VP9 is royalty-free it does come with licensing requirements. Have you even read them? Its obvious why Apple can't comply with the license Google requires for Apple to use VP9.

    And YouTube is no longer using the native tvOS video-player so they are no longer limited to the OS specific decoders, they can embed VP9 decoding into their video-player just like VLC and Infuse have done with theirs.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 9, 2018 ---
    I find this really fascinating, how people can have such hugely different opinions and feelings about something. The ONLY good things I have to say about the new app is;

    - Like/Dislike
    - Support for viewing and clicking embedded links and media in videos
    - Google Cast support (I don't care, I have it directly in my TV but I see how its nice for people)
    - Better captions
    - Some additional stuff like stats for nerds, even-though I see no use for it


    But they have removed EVERY SINGLE tvOS specific feature which is mind-boggling to me;

    • Apple Siri Remote integration. Everything is now just emulating regular clicks. Its horrible and makes navigation a shore and far worse than any other tvOS-app I have ever tried. Swiping is just not being used at all, its just emulated direction clicks.

    • Automatic frame-rate switching

    • Automatic dynamic range switching

    • Shuffle in playlists

    • Grid-view

    • Top-bar/menu (swipe down from the top of the Siri Remote to get easy access to common settings)

    • INTRUSIVE ADS! We have bloody pop-up ads during video play-back. Popping up out of nowhere, right in the middle of the screen with uneven audio... Its horrible and makes the one essential thing, watching videos incredibly frustrating. I would take ZERO features over having my videos interrupted with pop-up ads all the time.
    We still don't have:

    • Access to comments
    • Capability of adding videos to playlists and watch-later

    Its like taking one step forward, three steps back if you ask me.


    And there are so much wrong with the new UX-design. First of all its not designed for tvOS at all, it follows zero guidelines and makes zero sense compared to other apps on the platform.

    And the UX is obviously a "one-size-fits-all" solution, its solely vector graphics being scaled to fit whatever display size. On my 65-inch OLED-TV things are just so huge it becomes stupid. There is so much wasted screen realestate that its not even funny. Where I could view 12 videos in a grid, I can now view 3 1/2 on a row. Combine this with really inefficient and clunky navigation with the control it takes forever to get to what I want to watch. Its infuriating to use.

    Worst part is the Subscription list. Oh boy, has to be the worst use of space I have ever seen. Like come on? My fiancee have over 50 channels she has subscribed to and it took her over 2 minutes to just get to letter S in the horrible list.... I have never seen her so mad in my life, she was red in her face and almost watery in her eyes when she told me that she felt she just didn't want to watch YouTube on the TV anymore.
     
  12. vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #13
    I have mixed feelings about the new YouTube app on tvOS.
    I think the old app on tvOS was too simple, to the point that it was missing basic features.

    The ATV3 version was also simple, but it still had basic features like looking up the channel of a video that was playing, seeing what was playing next, and find related videos to the current playing video.

    The new YouTube app added some of the features, but it feels sloppy using the app, especially skipping forward and back. The UI is also very messy.

    Another issue is the subscription viewer, it is just one line of scrolling through all of the subs. I think a lot of apps are adopting this type of scrolling, which I find to be not very user friendly. Having them in a grid style would be much better for browsing browsers that you are already subscribed to.
     
  13. MagicBoy macrumors 68040

    MagicBoy

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    #14
    Yeah, it's a bit buggy. Watching longer videos, pausing and unpausing has it rewinding back about 10-15 seconds.
     
  14. vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #15
    I have notice that too. Another bug, if you pause and skip too many times, the skipping ability disappears. Instead, it makes you skip the whole video.
     
  15. MagicBoy macrumors 68040

    MagicBoy

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    #16
    Yep, had that one too. Assumed it was just me being a hamfisted muppet, but if it's repeatable...
     
  16. vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #17
    Yea, it seems like if you just touch the track pad lightly by accident, that new "other video" UI pops up and kind of ruins the viewing experience.
     
  17. RamGuy macrumors 6502a

    RamGuy

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    #18

    Its horrible by design, but it would have worked much better if the app actually supported the remote so we had swipe gestures and accelerated swipes so we could actually get through this horribly design endless list of huge circle icons without it taking a year doing so.

    Whats even more funny is that if you accidentally go out of the subscription list, lets say you do a miss swipe which is rather common with how bad the remote works with this update you will most likely get tossed right back to the start... Its mind-boggling bad.


    But I don't see anyone else complaining about the ads? Am I the only one getting them? I have videos that are like 15 minutes with four pop-up ads right in the middle of the screen before its finished. It just makes it so that I don't want to watch anything.
     
  18. MagicBoy macrumors 68040

    MagicBoy

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    #19
    I had one ad, but I thought I might have hamfistedly tried to use a gesture again. Might depend on their monetisation?
     
  19. Sakurambo-kun macrumors 6502

    Sakurambo-kun

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    #20
    The UI is leagues ahead and actually looks like a modern app, and I'm fine with it being the same across many platforms. It's really laggy though, doesn't feel native at all. Swipe navigation is basically broken.

    The lack of 4K, desite displaying 4K icons, is infuriating. Does anyone know if VP9 (and HLG for YouTube HDR) can be added to the current ATV 4K via a software update? Or will it require new hardware?

    My LG OLED's YouTube app has the identical UI, but it's much snappier and it supports 4K and HDR. The ATV version really should match, or beat it.

    YouTube is a huge deal, so Apple need to give Google the codec support they need, as I very much doubt Google are going to license HEVC for the vast amount of content on the platform. It's just not economically literate.
     
  20. RamGuy macrumors 6502a

    RamGuy

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    #21

    The app doesn't use the native video-player anyone, is no longer limited by the decodes supported by the operating system. Google is fully capable of embedding VP9 into their video-player. How else do you think VLC, Infuse etc are able to playback VP9 Profile 1 and Profile 2, AVC and other codecs not supported by tvOS? How were we all able to play MKV's in Windows 7 as it didn't have OS support for MKV?

    The reasoning why YouTube didn't support it before this update was because they used the native video-player, and the native player relies on whatever the operating system supports. But as Google has decided to toss out the native player with this horrible HTML5-player there is no reason why they don't at it themselves other than being lazy that is.
     
  21. vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #22
    I'm not sure about this. I agree it looks modern, I don't think that it is necessarily a good thing. I think as many app start adopting this "modern" look, the UI loses its user friendliness. First Netflix, then Hulu, now YouTube.

    I will say that I am happy that some features were added to the new app. The last app was barebones. I just wish they could have implemented the new features in a way that added to the experiences, and not totally disrupts it.
     
  22. jdag macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    Wow, we all have opinions, but mine could not be more opposite of yours. I think the UI is leagues worse and looks less modern.

    That being said, I wouldn't care about that so much if it were easy and intuitive to operate. For example, it is far far too easy to accidentally forward to the next video when simply trying to skip ahead in the current video.

    Yes, there's new functionality such as giving thumbs up, but that really gets lost on me because of the navigation changes.
     
  23. vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #24
    I pretty much have the same opinion about the new app.
    Sadly, this seems to be the way apps are going.

    Having to do endless swiping to go through your subscription list.... What was wrong with having a bunch of them on the screen and choosing which one you wanted? I feel like YouTube borrowed this from the tvOS version of Netflix.

    Look at Hulu, why does it take 10 clicks to go from one profile, to another, and watch something in the watchlist.

    These apps use to have easy to use UIs, now they are just messy, and not user friendly.
     
  24. RamGuy macrumors 6502a

    RamGuy

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    #25
    The endless swiping would be much easier to deal with if the app actually supported the siri remote and its swiping gestures, accelerated swiping etc..

    That's my biggest problem with this update! Destroy the UX-design as much as you want, force the exact same UX-design on every device, use the same UX no matter the display size, just do terrible scaling of it all. Please go ahead, the UX is just something I use in order to start the content I want to watch.

    But for heavens sake make the app work on the damn platform its being offered on... No support for the remotes touchpad, navigation that doesn't flow or work similar to any other tvOS apps or tvOS itself.. A new video-player that lacks all the tvOS features the app had previously like natural scrubbing, automatic frame rate and dynamic range switching etc... Intrusive ads all over videos.....


    The awful UX-design is actually the last problem I have with the app. Its the laziness of not doing jack **** in order to optimise it for tvOS as a platform that is infuriating. Apple should just remove it and tell Google to get their acts together. Why would Apple allow a app that just dumps the HTML5-app onto the tvOS AppStore with zero efforts making it into a native app for the platform?
     

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33 February 7, 2018