YouTuber Compares Apple Pro Display XDR to $43K Sony Reference Monitor, Says It's a 'No Go' for Professional Colorists

[PickUrPoison]

The appeal to authority re: Apple's decisions isn't convincing. They make plenty of missteps, as do many large corporations.

Furthermore, there's every reason to believe Apple's re-introduction of the Mac Pro and the Pro Display XDR is about mindshare and marketing on a larger level, not pure profitability of the products themselves. This is about the world's largest computer company being unable to release a top end pro level computer and supporting ecosystem for several years and correcting that mistake. Halo products like the Mac Pro and Pro Display XDR bring credibility to the rest of the product line, but often lose money themselves.

As for why I care? Why do YOU care? I like a lot of Apple stuff and I think they blew some credibility on this product. I expect better from them.

I don't spend all day grading videos, but I've spent the better part of my life engineering video and image pipelines, which gives me some background on the subject in question here and the ability to judge a product's suitability. Is there some reason you care about that?

Apple is the authority. Like it or not. I’m not asking you to be convinced by that, I don’t expect you (or anyone) to ever be convinced of anything that’s contrary to what you already think.
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Eh, think I need to disagree on that, as internet trashing is not limited to competition. It's deeper, and I believe has to do with some people not feeling good about themselves and/or the hand that life has dealt them. Trashing some person/product/company/etc gives voice to the voiceless and provides a blip of power and joy that's otherwise lacking in their lives.

Trashing something, a tech product no less, seems so bizarre. As an example, there are some cars I don't particularly care for. Why in the world would I waste my time going to a General Motors forum (a random example) and trash the corporation and its brands? What a waste of time.

As a photographer I'm interested in Apple's XDR display and am trying to soak up as much information about it as possible, and is why I'm here on this thread, learning a few things as a result. And, have also made contact with a member who owns and uses one.

There are competing displays at various feature and price points. As there's something for everybody, why would I get so emotionally involved with competing products I'd feel the need to trash them? Makes no sense.

It makes sense if you’re getting paid to trash them 🤣

But I take your point and agree. I do think both categories are represented here, and it’s hard to tell who’s who. Is it 90/10? 10/90? Who can know... actually it’s not that easy, there are other motivations as well no doubt. But no way to quantify the motivations of the Apple-hate crowd.

 

[rkuo]

Apple is the authority. Like it or not. I’m not asking you to be convinced by that, I don’t expect you (or anyone) to ever be convinced of anything that’s contrary to what you already think.

For reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Apple is the authority? What's the takeaway from that exactly?

 

[PickUrPoison]

What’s the point of discussing the merits of this tool or that tool in their professional use cases if the responses you get are basically ‘you’re a hater, give it a rest’?

I own plenty of Apple stuff and I use it to do my job. I don’t think the XDR is a great buy for many of the professional workflows presented by Apple or on this forum, especially for people who primarily work in SDR.

Enjoy your XDR, though. I’m glad it seems to be the right choice for you as a big, bright, fairly-accurate screen.

Theres a difference between constructive discussions of various pros and cons and those for whom this product is just another excuse to spout vitriol, continuing their campaign to trash Apple at every turn.

There are plenty of legitimate complaints about Apple, but for those for whom Apple can do no right, it gets old reading their continual BS.

 

[Zdigital2015]

But what pray tell could po$$ibly be the rea$on for devoting hours each day to trashing the competition? 🤣

Say it ain’t so, Joe!😂🤑😂

Truly, I would really like to see an objective comparison between the Asus ProArt PA32UCX and the XDR. With 1152 zones, 89% of REC.2020 and Thunderbolt 3, it looks impressive. Although 4096x2160 isn’t really helpful in an editing context compared to 5K or 6K, perhaps the Asus would work as a preview monitor.

The hate here from the usual sources is truly predictable, considering how it hasn’t changed since the release of the 2016 MacBook Pro.

 

[PickUrPoison]

For reference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Apple is the authority? What's the takeaway from that exactly?

It means as the entity that spends millions of dollars on market research—and has paid video pros (and other vertical target markets) in house actually using, giving feedback and helping perfect the products in the advanced workflows group that interacts with the marketing and engineering groups responsible for the Mac Pro, XDR and other Pro products—Apple is in the best position to evaluate the potential size of the total addressable market, and which features pros want/need the most.

As opposed to some internet rando, who doesn’t necessarily even have any authority (or much knowledge, in many cases) from which to make an appeal. (Not specifically directed at you rkuo.)

 

[rkuo]

It means as the entity that spends millions of dollars on market research—and has paid video pros (and other vertical target markets) in house actually using, giving feedback and helping perfect the products in the advanced workflows group that interacts with the marketing and engineering groups responsible for the Mac Pro, XDR and other Pro products—Apple is in the best position to evaluate the potential size of the total addressable market, and which features pros want/need the most.

As opposed to some internet rando, who doesn’t necessarily even have any authority (or much knowledge, in many cases) from which to make an appeal. (Not specifically directed at you rkuo.)

So, a bit of a tangent, but my very strong belief is that the Mac Pro and the Pro Display XDR are not profit centers for the company. The analysis would have not been "there is a high demand for this product" ... it would have been more along the lines of "how much is it going to cost us to do this thing" and "how much is it costing our core businesses to have this gap in our product platform".

Here's why.

1. The products are too expensive and not mass market at the scale that would make a dent on the bottom line.

2. Apple simply looked stupid being the largest computer company in world and not having a top tier computing platform. Really bad PR.

3. It was having knock on effects on their primary cash cows ... machine learning, video and audio processing and creative use, software development, augmented reality ... all of these were moving away from Apple due to their inability to even take a modern GPU into the system or produce a modern Mac platform. That hurts their primary mobile device business and the services they are trying to push ... which IS a problem. A big one.

Food for thought.

 

[AppelGeenyus]

People are reporting a back-log ordering, if that means anything. But it's up to the individual to decide if they need or want 3k, 4k, 5k or 6k. Can't leave that up to MacRumors forum posters.

To anyone that keeps banging this 'back-log of orders' drum:

Slipping shipping dates does not automatically confirm there is a backlog of orders due to high demand.

Although apple are usually masters of gauging market demand for existing product lines, unless they have previous data that confidently indicates high demand for a new product, the first batch for all 1.0 products like this are made in a limited quantity. There are a few reasons:

- It allows them to better gauge real demand going forward
- Prevents stockpiling a product that doesn't sell as hoped
- Any early issues with the product are contained to a smaller set of customers and a revision can be pumped out as fast as possible.

This isn't an apple-specific thing, basically everyone does it.

And you and many others seem to completely MISS the point that is this is a wide-open space no one has targeted. It's *exactly* the reason Apple made it. If you think they don't do their market research and seek out opportunities then you don't know how real businesses operate.

Who wants/needs this? Try anyone who wants a large retina-resolution monitor with high color accuracy. That's a lot of people: Photographers, small-time video and VFX shops, developers and scientists who are looking for a large high-resolution screen, etc. Just because it doesn't make sense to YOU doesn't mean it isn't a smart buy for many others. There are plenty of people that don't need a $30k+ reference display but would love higher color accuracy in a large high-resolution display--and yes, the color accuracy is much better than your average cheap display.

Why is that so hard to wrap your head around? Besides an obvious Anti-Apple bias, that is.

Now let's look at the actual market opportunity for this product. The amount of potential customers this product has is razor thin because:

Compatibility is limited to:
- 2019 MP
- 2019 iMac (note even iMac Pro is excluded)
- 2018 or later 15/16 inch MBP's
- Only two eGPU's from Blackmagic, both of which are now pretty outdated and overpriced.
- And all of the above requires Catalina 10.15.2 or later.

Dwindling desktop Mac users:
In 2017 apple openly shared that desktop macs only make up 20% of all mac sales, and mac pros make up “a single-digit percent” of that 20%. Considering the 2013 MP was everything most pros didn't wan't, left to rot literally for years and that apple wouldn't specify an exact number, it's very safe to assume that single digit was probably much closer to 1% than 9%. Today in 2020 that desktop percentage would be even lower. And given that apple didn't manage to ship the new MP until the very end of 2019 it's also very safe to assume total MP users are either still at its lowest point or possibly lower.

Missing PC compatibility:
There is no official support under Windows outside of bootcamp.

Price:
It is by far the most expensive pro-but-not-really desktop monitor. And highest priced products are always limited to the smallest demo'.

So no, there is no "wide-open space" market opportunity for XDR, it's a prop product for the new MP to help convince what's left of apples pro customers that apple hasn't abandoned them.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request to ask that you at least try be realistic about what is most likely, and not accuse everyone else of being anti-apple while pushing you own conclusions that are clearly based almost entirely on personal assumptions.

It's humorous how the guys on here ranting about how the XDR is no good think that the market for it is tiny and yet somehow the even tinier market for the uber-expensive reference displays is a non-issue? The market for a $5K high end 32" display is vastly larger than the one for a true reference display.

Meanwhile they also ignore the ASUS ProArt displays, targeting the same market and at a very similar price point. Apparently the market for these displays is so tiny that two vendors are now targeting it.

Um nobody is arguing that high end pro desktop displays is not a viable market. It has, does and always will exist. The problem with XDR specifically is that despite lacking many pro features(and I'm not talking about compared to reference monitors) it is priced so much higher than everything else that it seems like it's in it's own category, except its not. It's a factory calibrated desktop retina display with FALD.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Calling Vincent Teoh a youtuber? LMAO Macrumors

YouTuber:
a person who creates and uploads videos on the YouTube online video sharing service

Does he?

 

[arvinsim]

It means as the entity that spends millions of dollars on market research—and has paid video pros (and other vertical target markets) in house actually using, giving feedback and helping perfect the products in the advanced workflows group that interacts with the marketing and engineering groups responsible for the Mac Pro, XDR and other Pro products—Apple is in the best position to evaluate the potential size of the total addressable market, and which features pros want/need the most.

Yeah, market research who's ultimate agenda is to maximize profitability.

I still don't get why people still pretend that corporations have their interests at heart. Corporations are ultimately beholden to themselves and their stakeholders to make money.
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3. It was having knock on effects on their primary cash cows ... machine learning, video and audio processing and creative use, software development, augmented reality ... all of these were moving away from Apple due to their inability to even take a modern GPU into the system or produce a modern Mac platform. That hurts their primary mobile device business and the services they are trying to push ... which IS a problem. A big one.

I am interested in how much their lack of support of Nvidia GPUs are affecting the desirability of their desktop offerings.

 

[theluggage]

Apple does a ton of market research, and they think there’s a sufficiently large market for the XDR.

Yeah, and they probably did a ton of market research for the Trashcan and the butterfly keyboard, too.

In the past Apple has offered 11 and 12” displays (now discontinued), 13”, 15” (discontinued for 16”), 17” (discontinued for 21.5”), 27” and now 32”.

What they've also done in the past is offered a choice, and why many people here are annoyed is that they'd rather like a 5k display styled to match their Mac Pro, mini or iMac, or maybe a 30" 5k iMac. ...and think that maybe Apple could have tackled that before going after the niche that want a 6k display with prosumer-grade HDR.

Nobody gets upset by VW making $1m Bugattis for footballers as long as they keep the Golf up to date. (they do care when they make exaggerated claims about specs, though...)

Same with the Mac Pro - the whining would be confined to a few haters if Apple offered a decent modular/PCIe option in the $3-$4k range, or even managed to put decent CPU, GPU, RAM and SSD specs into the $6k "entry" model.

Realistically, though, Apple clearly decided some time ~2013 that displays weren't worth it when they left the Thunderbolt and Cinema displays to stagnate without either updating them or cutting the price (...which was OK for 1440p when they were launched, not so much a few years later). Since 2016, all they'd have had to do was put the LG ultrafine innards (which were apparently designed in collaboration with Apple) into a nicer case.

The fact that they've suddenly launched the XDR and aimed it over the heads of a large chunk of prospective customers is a bit of a head-scratcher. Methinks their "market research" involved considerations like not cannibalising sales of the iMac/iMac Pro (currently the best value if you want a Mac with a 27" 5k display) and seeing how many people would pay over the odds to get a display that matched their $20k Mac Pro.

Fine you don’t want one, but what do you care if Apple sells 10k, 20k, 50k, 100k, 500k, or a million 32” monitors? What difference could it possibly make to you?

It means that Apple are spending their R&D on ultra-high-end products rather than ones you might want (or even ones that are compatible with your current Mac).

The infamous $1000 stand (not to mention the $200 VESA adapter, the $1000 anti-glare coating, those $400 wheels, the ridiculous RAM expansion mark-ups, the $70 PCIe power cables, the missing HD mounting cage only available with a huge HD that you might not want...) may be things that you can live without, but they're pretty indicative of Apple's desire to start operating like a luxury car maker charging $1000 for a $200 radio. Will the next iMac have the same mounting system (which would be sensible) and a 'optional' $1000 stand?

If you don't want an XDR display, it would be better for you if it didn't exist and Apple doubled down on supporting the widest possible range of third party options (e.g. current lack of support for the Dell 8k, which is otherwise the obvious competitor to the XDR) - now, Apple's #1 priority is going to be to up-sell you to an XDR.

 

[laptech]

Apple see themselves as a 'Premium' brand and as such they do not want the riff-raff and dregs of society being seen with their products, hence why they price their products out of the financial reach of such people. For the most part, you see a tracksuit wearing 20 something with a macbook under their arm, people think that person has stolen the machine but you see a smart looking 20 something with a macbook under their arm, you think 'cool, that person can afford a macbook'.

Apple do not want the general populous to be buying these mac pro's, Apple want business professionals to buy them because it is more in keeping with their premium brand name 'Apple'.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah, market research who's ultimate agenda is to maximize profitability.

I still don't get why people still pretend that corporations have their interests at heart. Corporations are ultimately beholden to themselves and their stakeholders to make money....

It should be said no one is forcing you to buy companies products or even continue to use companies products in the future.
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To anyone that keeps banging this 'back-log of orders' drum:

Slipping shipping dates does not automatically confirm there is a backlog of orders due to high demand.

Although apple are usually masters of gauging market demand for existing product lines, unless they have previous data that confidently indicates high demand for a new product, the first batch for all 1.0 products like this are made in a limited quantity. There are a few reasons:

- It allows them to better gauge real demand going forward
- Prevents stockpiling a product that doesn't sell as hoped
- Any early issues with the product are contained to a smaller set of customers and a revision can be pumped out as fast as possible.

This isn't an apple-specific thing, basically everyone does it....

Yes it makes sense not to provide millions of units of this product. And neither you or I know how many they produced nor what apples targets are. But no matter how many were produced a backlog means demand exceeds supply.(and its probably not 50 as was suggested)

 

[I7guy]

...It means that Apple are spending their R&D on ultra-high-end products rather than ones you might want (or even ones that are compatible with your current Mac)....

Did you want Apple to check with you first and get your insight before embarking on a new product venture?

 

[mozumder]

Lol, no. Almost as good one as those comments that speak of 4K vs 6K in this context. Talk about not understanding the domains. Funnily enough, I am pretty sure many peeps do get this thing for purposes where it is far from optimal. Because it looks cool. Admittedly, I might do the same.

lol

 

[AppelGeenyus]

But no matter how many were produced a backlog means demand exceeds supply.(and its probably not 50 as was suggested)

It's a moot point though. 🤷‍♂️

 

[alstrike]

YouTuber:
a person who creates and uploads videos on the YouTube online video sharing service

Does he?

It was used as a derogative term and you know it.

The thing is Vincent Teoh probably knows more about video calibration and coloring than anyone on the Macrumors staff but for them he's just a "youtuber".

 

[blackadde]

Trying to divine sales expectations and market share is a pointless distraction. You might as well argue over the best way to measure a coastline with a ball of twine and a pair of calipers - nobody knows but Apple, and it doesn’t affect the display’s objective qualities regardless. Do people really care whether it sells like hotcakes or not?

The more useful questions to consider are whether purchasing an XDR will make it easier to do job X (image retouching, photography evaluation, HDR video grading, prepress) versus sticking with existing product Y (Eizo, NEC, BenQ, 5K UltraFine). At least then you’re arguing concrete and largely falsifiable examples.

 

[PickUrPoison]

Yeah, market research who's ultimate agenda is to maximize profitability.

I still don't get why people still pretend that corporations have their interests at heart. Corporations are ultimately beholden to themselves and their stakeholders to make money.

Of course—that’s the whole point of a business! Why would anyone think corporations have your best interests at heart? That seems rather naive.

You do understand that the way you sell $91 billion dollars worth of product and pocket $22 billion of profit in 90 days is by making products that customers absolutely love, and are extremely satisfied by? Market research is one way Apple keeps in touch with their customers.

If Apple made Surface computers, Pixel phones or Samsung tablets—all products that almost no one wants—Apple might very well be reporting single digit billions in revenue, not nearly triple digit billions.

Apple is not a charity. They are a profit making business. And they’re very, very good at it. Why some internet randos think they know better than Apple: “Apple needs to make a small iPhone”... Apple needs to make a $2000 Mac Pro mini-tower... “Apple needs to make a $3,000 32” monitor”... “Apple needs to make a round Watch”... Apple needs to make a $500 laptop (or desktop). Think so?

Newsflash: no they don’t. They’re doing just fine without the advice and “expertise” of armchair CEOs.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

It was used as a derogative term and you know it.

The thing is Vincent Teoh probably knows more about video calibration and coloring than anyone on the Macrumors staff but for them he's just a "youtuber".

The thing is, by definition, Vincent Teoh IS a YouTuber. If Vincent Teoh saw being a YouTuber as derogatory, I’m sure Vincent Teoh would NOT be a YouTuber (on account of the amout of work it requires to prepare and upload the video). Some people, maybe including you, see being a YouTuber as derogatory, but that doesn’t alter the definition.

There are several things in thread for you to go on the extreme defensive for this Vincent person for. This isn’t one.

 

[HandITOVER]

SMH.

 

[HandITOVER]

SMH.

 

[I7guy]

This isn't about authority and definitely non-related to a hostile crowd. Those are the people who are fully aware of what can be done to improve the product at a better price point and rectify its unrealistic comparisons to a $40,000 product.

Who said the product need improvement? Some MR posters who wouldn’t purchase the XDR anyway? (And that not to say the XDR is perfect)

Seems like Apple marketing did what they intended. Got people talking about the XDR, whether you are in the target market or not.

 

[AppelGeenyus]

The thing is, by definition, Vincent Teoh IS a YouTuber. If Vincent Teoh saw being a YouTuber as derogatory, I’m sure Vincent Teoh would NOT be a YouTuber (on account of the amout of work it requires to prepare and upload the video). Some people, maybe including you, see being a YouTuber as derogatory, but that doesn’t alter the definition.

There are several things in thread for you to go on the extreme defensive for this Vincent person for. This isn’t one.

Yeah Bill Gates is my favorite “youtuber”...

 

[PickUrPoison]

Yeah, and they probably did a ton of market research for the Trashcan and the butterfly keyboard, too.



What they've also done in the past is offered a choice, and why many people here are annoyed is that they'd rather like a 5k display styled to match their Mac Pro, mini or iMac, or maybe a 30" 5k iMac. ...and think that maybe Apple could have tackled that before going after the niche that want a 6k display with prosumer-grade HDR.

Nobody gets upset by VW making $1m Bugattis for footballers as long as they keep the Golf up to date. (they do care when they make exaggerated claims about specs, though...)

Same with the Mac Pro - the whining would be confined to a few haters if Apple offered a decent modular/PCIe option in the $3-$4k range, or even managed to put decent CPU, GPU, RAM and SSD specs into the $6k "entry" model.

Realistically, though, Apple clearly decided some time ~2013 that displays weren't worth it when they left the Thunderbolt and Cinema displays to stagnate without either updating them or cutting the price (...which was OK for 1440p when they were launched, not so much a few years later). Since 2016, all they'd have had to do was put the LG ultrafine innards (which were apparently designed in collaboration with Apple) into a nicer case.

The fact that they've suddenly launched the XDR and aimed it over the heads of a large chunk of prospective customers is a bit of a head-scratcher. Methinks their "market research" involved considerations like not cannibalising sales of the iMac/iMac Pro (currently the best value if you want a Mac with a 27" 5k display) and seeing how many people would pay over the odds to get a display that matched their $20k Mac Pro.



It means that Apple are spending their R&D on ultra-high-end products rather than ones you might want (or even ones that are compatible with your current Mac).

The infamous $1000 stand (not to mention the $200 VESA adapter, the $1000 anti-glare coating, those $400 wheels, the ridiculous RAM expansion mark-ups, the $70 PCIe power cables, the missing HD mounting cage only available with a huge HD that you might not want...) may be things that you can live without, but they're pretty indicative of Apple's desire to start operating like a luxury car maker charging $1000 for a $200 radio. Will the next iMac have the same mounting system (which would be sensible) and a 'optional' $1000 stand?

If you don't want an XDR display, it would be better for you if it didn't exist and Apple doubled down on supporting the widest possible range of third party options (e.g. current lack of support for the Dell 8k, which is otherwise the obvious competitor to the XDR) - now, Apple's #1 priority is going to be to up-sell you to an XDR.

Those who want the XDR will buy it, others can buy what they want. Macs have always been too expensive for some to afford, but there are quite a few models in the $800-$1,300 range. And Apple store carries LG’s 24” 4K/27” 5K monitors at $700/1,300 if customers don’t want the XDR. If one wants a $100 4K monitor those are also available.

You not needing a high-end Mac Pro Xeon workstation or XDR targeted at the corporate/enterprise market and working pros isn’t particularly relevant to those who do. Why begrudge pros who need that performance a solution for their requirements?

You’re not entitled to a $3-4k mid-tower, or a $6k tower with specs of your choosing. Nor a 30” 5.5K iMac that you think people want. Nor a 27” monitor.

People want lots of things Apple doesn’t make, whether it’s a WiFi router, a round Watch, a cheaper mini or Mac Pro, an iPad mini Pro, an iPhone without a notch or camera bump or a 4” iPhone. No one is entitled to those products just because that’s what they want to buy.

There are many, many products Apple could make but doesn’t. And not not all of the current products will appeal to everyone. I don’t see any way that those two statements won’t always be true. Do you?

 

[PickUrPoison]

This isn't about authority and definitely non-related to a hostile crowd. Those are the people who are fully aware of what can be done to improve the product at a better price point and rectify its unrealistic comparisons to a $40,000 product.

Apple thinks people want an extremely accurate 32” high resolution monitor. People can want it to be cheaper; that’s no surprise because people always want Apple products to be cheaper 🤷‍♂️