Zuning it again? MS defends Windows 8 Metro Start Screen amid complaints and concerns

Discussion in 'Apple, Inc and Tech Industry' started by *LTD*, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. *LTD* macrumors G4

    *LTD*

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    #1
    Has Microsoft Zuned this as well, or are these just some teething pains?

    It's unfair to judge an OS before release and the fallout from at least a quarters' worth of sales, but this is Microsoft we're talking about, and their record has earned them early scrutiny and justified pre-release worries.

    Why does such a key element need vociferous defending? Why does it need "explaining" and damage control by MS? What is there to justify when MS claims they have been listening to consumers all along (as they love to claim)?

    This isn't the sort of doubts the industry had when the iPad was released - most people couldn't even conceive of what was going when Steve Jobs demo'd it from the comfort of his easy-chair. That's how revolutionary it was. With the Metro UI, we're seeing the usual "here we go again" doubts that point to another potential design snafu, which MS is famous for. For some reason Redmond has the design sense of Flava Flav on a bender. Not to mention that up until now Metro has been an abject failure.

    Metro has existed and has been available to consumers since 2006, and in a bigger way since October 2010. Consumers didn't and don't care about it (so far) enough to generate any kind of appreciable return for MS. What will change?

    Let's call a spade a spade: MS is basing the Windows 8 UI on an interface that is a total market failure, and which currently is doing absolutely nothing to help pitifully low WP7 sales.

    Anything and everything Zune and Zune-related (e.g., Metro) has not translated into anything meaningful for MS - either in terms of share or in terms of profit.

    So what's MS' answer? What is their grand strategy? Bring it to tablets and PCs.

    It seems they're hoping that, regardless of anything, their Windows universal-licensing model will make Metro successful because eventually, if you want to get a $400 PC, you'll have to live with Metro by default.

    This strategy will be (to put it softly) "interesting" to see in action.



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    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/microsoft-to-address-windows-8-start-screen-concerns/15243

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-20116005-75/microsoft-defends-its-windows-8-metro-start-screen/

    Microsoft defends its Windows 8 Metro Start screen

    Microsoft is trying to justify its new Windows 8 Metro user interface Start screen in the wake of ongoing concerns and complaints from unhappy users of the developer preview.

    In the latest update to the Building Windows 8 blog, Alice Steinglass, the group program manager for the Core Experience Evolved team, tried to explain the need for a new approach to the Windows Start screen.

    Citing evidence that more people are using the Taskbar to launch programs, Steinglass said that the traditional Start menu is limited in scope as it's not well-optimized for launching or searching for applications. As such, Microsoft felt the need to rethink the entire Start process in Windows, including the overall Start screen.

    "The Start screen is not just a replacement for the Start menu--it is designed to be a great launcher and switcher of apps, a place that is alive with notifications, customizable, powerful, and efficient. It brings together a set of solutions that today are disparate and poorly integrated," Steinglass said.
    Microsoft designed the new Metro UI Start screen to give users access not just to their applications but to provide live updates to news, people, activities, and other relevant items, according to Steinglass. Users will also be able to customize the Start screen beyond what's possible in the current developer preview, giving them more control over how they tile and group the tools that they use.

    In yet another change from the past, Microsoft has jettisoned the concept of folders, claiming that folders are more often used to bury things rather than organize them. Instead, the Windows 8 Start screen will prompt users to unite their apps by group.

    "Once the apps are organized into groups, zooming out provides an at-a-glance view of the groups (similar to looking at a folder list)," explained Steinglass. "From the zoomed out view, you can jump directly into any group just as you would open a folder. For those wishing to stash certain programs out of sight, you can always remove the pinned icon from Start and use search to access it, or just put the program at the far end of the Start page. This is by far the most efficient way to manage a large library of apps."

    Windows President Steven Sinofsky acknowledged that the new Start screen is an attempt to be all things to all people.

    "We designed Start to be a modern, fast, and fluid replacement for the combination of launching, switching, notifying, and at-a-glance viewing of information," said Sinofsky in a preface to the blog post. "That's a tall order. And of course, we set out to do this for the vast majority of customers, who are more familiar with the Start menu, mouse, and keyboard, as well as for new customers using touch-capable devices."

    But as many of the commenters have pointed out, a Metro-based Start screen that may work smoothly on a mobile device with a touch screen doesn't work as well on a PC dependent on keyboard and mouse. In response, the post tried to assuage PC users unhappy about the Metro UI that the current developer preview doesn't paint the whole picture.

    "There are things we're still working on, that aren't yet finished in the Developer Preview," Steinglass said. "For example, we know there are bugs in interacting at high speed with the scroll wheel on the mouse, and we're working on fixing these. We're also adding the ability to instantly zoom out with the mouse and keyboard, and we're looking at ways to make scrolling faster and easier. And, we are working on fixing a bug in the Developer Preview that causes inconsistent and slow page-down/page-up behavior. We're also looking at making rearranging more predictable for mouse, keyboard, and touch."
     
  2. AppleScruff1 macrumors G3

    AppleScruff1

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    #2
    You must really be getting worried now. Try to relax.
     
  3. boss.king macrumors 68040

    boss.king

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    #3
    http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...-a-pc-operating-system-for-the-tablet-age.ars

    Windows 8 is looking to be the best thing MS has made to date, and the Metro UI has it's place in that. This is not only a desktop OS but a tablet OS too, so they need a touch interface.

    As for "Zuning", you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments. Zune did not fail because of the UI, if you really think that then you clearly have no understanding of the things you pretend to be an expert on.

    It's time to let it go *LTD*.
     
  4. SidBala macrumors 6502a

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  5. roadbloc macrumors G3

    roadbloc

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    #5
    This would be just like how Apple defends their controversial UI changes. Acceptable when Apple do it isn't it *LTD*?
     
  6. MacHamster68, Oct 7, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #6
    i honestly think WP7 OS is better then iOS and Android , at least as business mobile phone due to office 2010 , kids will equally love it with full xbox life integration , ok it's missing some features like copy &paste , but thats no problem i guess they do it the Apple way ..dont offer everything from the start , give the user something to look forward to on the next update or upgrade , that strategy brought Apple in the position they are now .. feed the customer with features every now and then and he stays loyal

    microsoft has HTC on board , that can only be beneficial as the HTC phones are well build offering good quality and the price difference to Apples iPhone will play a big role too

    i own a HTC wildfire and would never even consider to buy a iPhone 4s instead ...as i just need a phone to make phone calls , send the odd text , read very rarely emails , and even rarer surf the web , i did try watching tv/listening radio online and i'm quiet impressed with the performance of the HTC wildfire , but those features are not the primary decission to buy a phone , it needs to be good value for money and the iPhone cost nearly as much as a Mac Mini ..but i wait a while , maybe after the iPhone 4s when finally the iPhone 5 is released i dont need a Mac any more and just plug in a iPhone 5 to the tv , then it would be worth to spend the money ..but for now spending over £499 ($ 774) on a iPhone 4s to do the odd phone call and text and email, if i can do the same on a phone that just cost a quarter of the price is a no brainer to me and iOS is not realy better then Android ..i need to work for the money i earn and the difference between the HTC widlfire and the iPhone 3gs nearly payed a month rent and food already ..sorry still cant eat the iPhone 4s and neither is it any good as temporary shelter

    and competition was always good for the customer
     
  7. miles01110 macrumors Core

    miles01110

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    #7
    The start screen? Wow, LTD must be running low on non-Apple criticism today. Surprisingly inconsequential even for him.
     
  8. sigamy macrumors 65816

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    #8
    I haven't seen much of Metro applications. I have seen quick demos of the new start screen as a launcher.

    I'm glad to see MS taking things in a new direction. They deserve some credit for that.

    But, I'm not sure how Metro will work for real applications. Can the Metro UI support a spreadsheet? Even something fairly simple like Evernote--I'm just having a hard time picturing apps in Metro.

    For me Metro seems to be Microsoft's Dashboard/Confabulator visualized as banner ads. Vista and I think Win7 had these desktop "widgets". To date, that is all I really see Metro apps being good at. Quick, simple updates/notifcations to weather, stocks, friend's status updates, etc.

    I just don't see Metro becoming the way we all interact with computers.

    It's odd that Microsoft goes from the Ribbon, with 18+ commands and functions in your face to Metro with basically no UI at all.
     
  9. KingCrimson macrumors 65816

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    #9
    *LTD* - you are getting awful nervous about an OS still 10 months away from RTM.
     
  10. TheSideshow macrumors 6502

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    #10
    WP7 now has C&P and Multitasking as of Mango. C&P came very soon after launch.

    For Windows 8, the new start screen still has the ability to launch just as many apps as Win7 start menu (no scrolling required) and also search by typing just like Windows 7. The only difference is that its a whole screen versus a menu and getting to device manager and other settings (versus apps/programs) is my only problem with it since searches are organized into apps, settings, and files now.
     
  11. *LTD*, Oct 7, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2011

    *LTD* thread starter macrumors G4

    *LTD*

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    #11
    Nothing MS has done in the past decade has made Apple or any of its fans even remotely nervous. Mostly because we're always waiting for MS to get in the game (often late) with something that might have been interesting when others hadn't already chewed up and spat out the segment in question.

    This is Microsoft. The way it is run, the way they approach tech, their entire philosophy, is worrisome only to themselves. And possibly their investors.

    Still milking the same old Windows/Office cow they have 15 years ago, MS is a perennial underachiever.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/technology/27apple.html

    http://www.infoworld.com/t/microsof...rs-suggest-declining-windows-market-share-855

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

    http://www.tomsguide.com/us/WP7-windows-Phone-iOS-Froyo-comScore,news-12104.html

    And most telling, over the last 10 years, while the Nasdaq rose about 34% and the Standard & Poor's 500 Index 8%, Microsoft has slumped 25%. Isn't a CEO supposed to *increase* share value??

    MS is where money goes to die. Their share value has been stagnant for the past decade. It has plunged 57% under Ballmer. With that kind of massive R&D budget, that kind of employee base, and that kind of blustery talk by your CEO, you should be the absolute star of consumer tech. Period.

    My post was made not out of worry, but out of sheer amusement. MS is comic relief.

    As long as Ballmer runs MS, there's no cause for anyone to worry. Unless you're Ballmer.
     
  12. TheSideshow macrumors 6502

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    #12
    If its the same Windows and Office cow of 15 years ago, why are you saying people are reluctant to the new change of Windows 8? Isnt OS X like 11 years old or so now too? How old is the Mac? iPod?

    These things are just names and functions. They change and get better with time. Windows isnt the same as it was 15 years ago as with the iPod, Mac and so forth.
     
  13. MacHamster68, Oct 9, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #14
    Microsoft Office or better Microsoft Excel did first run on Mac's before it even could run on PC's
    Microsoft released the first version of Excel for the Mac in 30 September 1985, and the first Windows version in November 1987

    so stop bashing Windows all the time , Windows7 is actually a good operating system if you compare it with with older versions like windows xp or windows98 it's a huge improvement already

    so give WP7 a chance before you bash it its a huge improvemnet compared to earlier attempts too

    and iOS and OSX get improvements all the time too , otherwise we would still use OSX version 10.0 and iOS version 1.0
     
  14. Sankersizzle macrumors 6502a

    Sankersizzle

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    #15
    LTD is one of those guys that makes me scared to say I use Apple products in public, lest everyone think I am as much as a fanboy as he is.
     
  15. KingCrimson macrumors 65816

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    #16
    Remember no personal attacks or you will get notified.
     
  16. *LTD*, Oct 10, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2011

    *LTD* thread starter macrumors G4

    *LTD*

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    #17
    I'm not sure what the point of this pic is.

    I'm not sure why Jobs would have thanked MS (at least privately) for saving Apple. Because that most certainly is not what happened and not how it happened.

    It's a nice public gesture to report on, though, and probably did some good in quelling investor/industry fears. Most of the "deal" was not widely reported. A congenial spin was put on the matter; more cheery and fit for public consumption. The point was to show MS and Apple as the best of friends.
     
  17. AppleScruff1 macrumors G3

    AppleScruff1

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    #18
    I'm sure Steve cleared it with you before he accepted the deal. You're a more credible source than Time.
     
  18. *LTD* thread starter macrumors G4

    *LTD*

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    #19
    Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

    MS "saved" Apple because Apple had them over a barrel. MS, as usual in those days, was caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Caught with Apple's Quicktime code. Before they stole that, movies and other video wouldn't play properly in Windows. They would be jerky from frame to frame.

    Apple threatened to sue. 

    They came to a settlement (wisely) in which Apple and MS would share patents in various bits of software, and also that MS would buy $150,000,000 in non voting Apple stock and announce support for Apple by continuing development of Office for at least 5 years.

    This wasn't done out of the goodness of Gates' heart. Apple in effect used a bit of extortion on MS due to the latter's act of theft. It was in Billy's best interest to play Apple's game or face worse penalties. That $150 million investment in Apple was probably going to be a lot cheaper than a lawsuit with Apple.

    So MS' $150m stock investment was the result of a settlement of a lawsuit. It was, however, an INITIAL payment of a much larger sum that would be paid out to Apple over the course of a few years. At the time this is what then Apple CFO Fred Anderson said. The exact amount of the settlement is still unknown. 

    Both companies would cross-license all existing patents and any new ones over the following five years. As we know, Apple would make IE the default Mac browser, which in the context of the period isn't a strange thing. 

    Apple had leverage over MS, arising from, as you quoted, the Apple Computer vs. San Francisco Canyon Co. lawsuit. 

    Apple charged San Fran Canyon Co with copyright infringement and wrongdoing. And they filed an IP suit accordingly. These guys were a 3rd party contractor for Apple. However, the action also included MS and Intel. Canyon worked on video software for Apple's QuickTime for Windows and Intel's DCI. Apple claimed their copyrighted code was used in the shipping version of MS' Video for Windows and will be used by both companies in the future. 

    Apple claimed that after seeing demos of Quicktime for Windows and Video for Windows at the 1992 expo in Vegas, Intel's upper management asked Canyon to provide software to them that would make the speed of Video for Windows as fast as Quicktime. Months later, Canyon sent Intel its code and Video for Windows got the performance boost with Quicktime For Windows. Apple added Intel and MS to the action, and Apple showed that thousands of lines of code for video used in Windows came direct from Apple's Quicktime for Windows (Apple's software.) 

    As we know, some years later at the Boston Macworld Expo, the companies were like best friends. 

    MS and Intel got caught red-handed and paid for it. MS hired former Apple guys and finally made Office into usable Mac apps. 

    Not quite a win for MS. Apple simply took full advantage of MS' typical behaviour (the sort of behaviour that came to light later in antitrust court.)

    Interestingly enough, had MS not acted like a thief at the time, Apple might not be where they are today.

    These details weren't widely reported back in 1997. So they're easy to miss, probably due to all the breathlessness and emotional highs and lows going on at the time. There was a mention of other payments MS agreed to make in addition to the $150 million. The amount was never publicly disclosed (which isn't really surprising.) For instance, the particulars of the recent Apple-Nokia deal weren't disclosed publicly either. Apple's financial records at the time suggested it was substantial.

    The only mention we have of these later payments was from a televised broadcast, and likely the settlement docs which may or many not be available for public perusal.  

    http://scripting.com/mail/mail970806.html

    From: gorskic@concentric.net (Chris Gorski);
    Sent at 8/6/97; 10:11:21 AM;
    More Info...from CNBC

    Sorry to keep writing, but my brain feels like it's connected to a fire hose...
    Apple and MS are also collaborating on Java. What this means for Sun is anybody's guess. Again, forgot about this.

    Bruce Francis will interview Ed Woolard (Apple board member) at 10:30 ET (7:30 your time) on CNBC. JObs won't be talking to the press today.
    It's my guess that CNNfn (if your cable system carries it) will have very extensive coverage of all this on Digital Jam at 11 eastern (8 your time), probably with lots of video. It's the only thing worth watching on fn, even though Steve Young (their lead anchor) hasn't a clue.



    From: gorskic@concentric.net (Chris Gorski);
    Sent at 8/6/97; 10:42:37 AM;
    More Bruce Francis News


    In addition to all the other stuff that has been said, Edgar Woolard, Apple Board member and DuPont Chairman jsut revealed to CNBC's Bruce Francis that MS will, as part of the patent settlement, make "balancing payments" to Apple over the next 5 years. He would not disclose the sum.
     
  19. Hastings101 macrumors 68010

    Hastings101

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    #20
    Metro(sexual, because that's the first thing that secretly pops into everyone's mind) is awesome, Microsoft doesn't need to defend it.
     
  20. AppleScruff1 macrumors G3

    AppleScruff1

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    #21
    ROFLMAO. Keep drinking the Cool-Aid.
     
  21. roadbloc macrumors G3

    roadbloc

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    UK
    #22
    Pfffft! Of all the far-fetched nonsense I've seen you post, this tops it all.
     
  22. *LTD* thread starter macrumors G4

    *LTD*

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    Canada
    #23
    Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_3 like Mac OS X; en) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8J2 Safari/6533.18.5)

    Start here:

    http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Apple_v._San_Francisco_Canyon
     
  23. KingCrimson macrumors 65816

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    #24
    Yet 45% already don't like it based on the Developer Preview.
     
  24. ucantgetridofme macrumors 6502

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    #25
     

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