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Compile 'em all

macrumors 601
Apr 6, 2005
4,130
323
I was at a Tableau Software conference last year. It was shortly after Apple announced Forstall's departure. Apple came up at several cocktail party conversations. I'd say nearly everyone I talked to made fun of Apple's software UI.

How many people in that "party" wrote a piece of software to be used by millions and millions of users from every country on the planet from every age?

None? I thought so.

Next time you start talking about how Apple should do something one way or the other think about that past paragraph. Apple products are made to be used by a 5 year old and an 80 years old. When you and those at the "party" _try_ to build something on that scale, you will get it.


You say skeuomorphism does mean something...what exactly does faux leather and stiching mean in find my friends?.

It is sad that you think the fake stitching and faux leather means nothing and serves no purpose. It is there for a reason. You might dislike the styling (I do too) but it is there for a very very good reason.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,237
31,323
How many people in that "party" wrote a piece of software to be used by millions and millions of users from every country on the planet from every age?

None? I thought so.

Next time you start talking about how Apple should do something one way or the other think about that past paragraph. Apple products are made to be used by a 5 year old and an 80 years old. When you and those at the "party" _try_ to build something on that scale, you will get it.

The guys I was talking to actually work for Tableau and have plenty of experience in visual design. iPhone has been around for 7 years now. I think Apple can stop treating people like they're idiots and won't have a clue how to use something unless it looks like a physical object from the past. Last time I checked people using Android and Windows phones aren't complaining about them being to difficult to use because they don't employ skeuomorphism. Yeah Microsoft screwed up removing the start menu. Not one rumor suggested Apple's home button and grid of icons are going anywhere.


It is sad that you think the fake stitching and faux leather means nothing and serves no purpose. It is there for a reason. You might dislike the styling (I do too) but it is there for a very very good reason.

And what reason is that exactly? What does faux leather and stiching have to do with finding friends? Nothing. It's purely decorative. Ad ugly to boot.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,237
31,323
If it can be proven in tests that it helps, should it be used?

Guess I'd like to see that proof. I'd like to see proof that a note taking app has to look like a yellow pad of paper for someone to know how to use it. Or that Game Center has to look like a pool/card table for people to know what it's purpose is. I think a lot of the skeuomorphism Apple employs is less about being intuitive and more about being whimsy and decorative. Case in point the old podcasts app. The reel to reel tape design certainly has nothing to do with playing podcasts. And that app got horrible ratings on the App Store. Most likely people used 3rd party apps like Downcast instead because they're much better. There may have been a time and place for this design when the iPhone first came out but after 7 years I think it's worn out its welcome. And there's nothing to suggest what Ive is doing is going to make the phone harder to use, just that it will probably have a unifying design language that is less ugly.
 

chadley_chad

macrumors 6502
Apr 19, 2004
311
0
Nottingham, UK
Thank you. Someone speaking sense. I hate the blind sheep-like following Apple down the garden path of cloud storage a lot of people are doing to try and justify why Apple have such meagre and over-priced storage options on most of their systems.

"The Cloud" isn't a concept I want. Give me lots of fast and cost-effective internal storage and I'll add my own large and cost-effective external backup storage to it on my own terms. I don't want a 256Gb SSD or a 500Gb 5400rpm drive with my iTunes library on some Apple server and have to sync via the web. Even an always on internet connection isn't as a convenient as simply having YOUR data on YOUR computer. It's pure marketing guff.

Well said!
 

subsonix

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2008
3,551
79
Guess I'd like to see that proof.

My point is, if it came out of a user test that you conducted, would you still not use it? I.e would you choose your own personal taste over function, even if your test indicated better results.
 
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chadley_chad

macrumors 6502
Apr 19, 2004
311
0
Nottingham, UK
External drives are cheap and don't take up that much space. Apple isn't catering to the (most likely) minority of customers who still need an optical drive. And they didn't remove the optical drive because Jony Ive said the iMac needed a 5" edge. Don't be ridiculous.

Typical response from an Apple fan! An internal drive costs nothing to the user and takes up zero space ... But apple (and obviously you) decide its better to no longer include one so the majority of people that do use and need them (because some people like to buy their software on disc and back up data to disc) have to go fork out more money and have a nasty external drive hanging off the back of their iMac taking up space .... All for what ... Because apple ARE trying to force their 'sheep' towards their cloud and app store solutions (which guess what ... Aren't free!). If you can't understand this my friend then you're one of the people that are keeping apple in business despite shoddy kit ... Not like the apple of old I once loved!!! I'd also like to add that prices didn't go down when apple removed optical drives; they actually went up! Go figure that one out!

iMac owner (with an optical drive!)
 

Pilgrim1099

Suspended
Apr 30, 2008
1,109
602
From the Midwest to the Northeast
Typical response from an Apple fan! An internal drive costs nothing to the user and takes up zero space ... But apple (and obviously you) decide its better to no longer include one so the majority of people that do use and need them (because some people like to buy their software on disc and back up data to disc) have to go fork out more money and have a nasty external drive hanging off the back of their iMac taking up space .... All for what ... Because apple ARE trying to force their 'sheep' towards their cloud and app store solutions (which guess what ... Aren't free!). If you can't understand this my friend then you're one of the people that are keeping apple in business despite shoddy kit ... Not like the apple of old I once loved!!! I'd also like to add that prices didn't go down when apple removed optical drives; they actually went up! Go figure that one out!

iMac owner (with an optical drive!)

I will always prefer optical drives because they're easier to manage and access, plus they're 'off the grid' rather than on the Cloud. I would NOT want all my data on the cloud servers because then it makes it easier for certain government agencies (ie. Big Brother) to snoop around on those servers to see what data we have stored up. That's what Apple is trying to shepherd us towards.

There is a new product out made by a company called Space Monkey that has an 'off the grid' hard drive as a personal Cloud that we can access to at home. Here is their site: http://www.spacemonkey.com/

It's a bit expensive but a great concept, although I'd take DropBox any day to move my files around and for clients to access to. But NEVER my entire hard drive. I would NOT even want an OS that is run off the Cloud server, either, which I would not be surprised if Apple attempts to pull this on us in the future (or any company).

Apple screwed up and should've put in an SSD card slot for the iPad/iPod/iPhone market for memory expansion to store in more apps or files rather than just buying a device with a locked set of storage capacity. That, to me, is a waste of material to produce just one product to sell with a uni-body design, which explains their motive for THAT reason to make money instead of empowering us to 'upgrade' the devices' storage capacities.
 

Todd B.

macrumors 6502
May 1, 2013
434
1
I honestly think that tech blogs and the people that post on them live in a bubble these days if they think that the majority of consumers care about "flat design", think that calendar or whatever doesn't look good, or think that an OS is "outdated" or "stale".
 

Xiroteus

macrumors 65816
Mar 31, 2012
1,297
75
Typical response from an Apple fan! An internal drive costs nothing to the user and takes up zero space ... But apple (and obviously you) decide its better to no longer include one so the majority of people that do use and need them (because some people like to buy their software on disc and back up data to disc) have to go fork out more money and have a nasty external drive hanging off the back of their iMac taking up space .... All for what ... Because apple ARE trying to force their 'sheep' towards their cloud and app store solutions (which guess what ... Aren't free!). If you can't understand this my friend then you're one of the people that are keeping apple in business despite shoddy kit ... Not like the apple of old I once loved!!! I'd also like to add that prices didn't go down when apple removed optical drives; they actually went up! Go figure that one out!

iMac owner (with an optical drive!)

I do notice a lot of people do't understand why we are bothered by some systems not including an optical drive nor understand why we do not want to add an external and it takes away from the all in one nature of what we could be going for. I can accept it on the Macbook Air or a PC tablet (netbooks made sense as well) not on full size laptops or desktops.
 

WeegieMac

Guest
Jan 29, 2008
3,274
1
Glasgow, UK
Typical response from an Apple fan! An internal drive costs nothing to the user and takes up zero space ... But apple (and obviously you) decide its better to no longer include one so the majority of people that do use and need them (because some people like to buy their software on disc and back up data to disc) have to go fork out more money and have a nasty external drive hanging off the back of their iMac taking up space .... All for what ... Because apple ARE trying to force their 'sheep' towards their cloud and app store solutions (which guess what ... Aren't free!). If you can't understand this my friend then you're one of the people that are keeping apple in business despite shoddy kit ... Not like the apple of old I once loved!!! I'd also like to add that prices didn't go down when apple removed optical drives; they actually went up! Go figure that one out!

iMac owner (with an optical drive!)

An optical drive takes up "zero space"?

Don't be so ridiculous, of course it takes up space. It's a component.
 

Xiroteus

macrumors 65816
Mar 31, 2012
1,297
75
An optical drive takes up "zero space"?

Don't be so ridiculous, of course it takes up space. It's a component.

Even thought this reply is not to me I almost have the same thought, if they stopped worrying about making a desktop machine an inch thinner it would fit inside which should not be an issue, better then buying an external drive for a desktop computer which personally I find ridiculous and would refuse to do.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Nov 14, 2011
24,237
31,323
Even thought this reply is not to me I almost have the same thought, if they stopped worrying about making a desktop machine an inch thinner it would fit inside which should not be an issue, better then buying an external drive for a desktop computer which personally I find ridiculous and would refuse to do.

What evidence do you have that Apple removed the optical drive for the sole reason of making the machine thinner?
 

cmChimera

macrumors 601
Feb 12, 2010
4,273
3,762
Typical response from an Apple fan! An internal drive costs nothing to the user and takes up zero space ... But apple (and obviously you) decide its better to no longer include one so the majority of people that do use and need them (because some people like to buy their software on disc and back up data to disc) have to go fork out more money and have a nasty external drive hanging off the back of their iMac taking up space .... All for what ... Because apple ARE trying to force their 'sheep' towards their cloud and app store solutions (which guess what ... Aren't free!). If you can't understand this my friend then you're one of the people that are keeping apple in business despite shoddy kit ... Not like the apple of old I once loved!!! I'd also like to add that prices didn't go down when apple removed optical drives; they actually went up! Go figure that one out!

iMac owner (with an optical drive!)

1. The majority of users don't use their optical drives.

2. Stop being dramatic.
 

boss1

macrumors 6502a
Jan 8, 2007
978
36
If the solution to your design problem is letting the people decide what is a better design for them, then you have already failed. Design is opinionated. And this is why it is very hard.

I think my original statement stands very well.
It's actually not that complicated. It's a very simple solution that works.

Some people like the red iPod and some like the black.
Some choose the bondi blue iMac and some prefer the yellow.
Some choose translucent menu in desktop Mac OS and some prefer solid, or aquamarine, or blue.


Apple has catered to user appearance likes/dislikes on the hardware and software side for a loooongg time in almost all of it's products.
This is concept is no different.
 

alephnull12

macrumors regular
Jan 13, 2012
180
0
I was at a Tableau Software conference last year. It was shortly after Apple announced Forstall's departure. Apple came up at several cocktail party conversations. I'd say nearly everyone I talked to made fun of Apple's software UI. Especially note pad and that silly marker felt font. I'm sorry but people don't need a note taking app to look like a legal pad of paper to know its for taking notes.
Those guys from Tableau are probably weenies. Never ask and IT guy or any nerd what's cool, because generally speaking they don't have a clue. Or at least, even if they are right, what they say has no meaning so far as the rest (99% of the planet) is concerned. Nothing Apple has ever done that was wildly successful ever had weenie-appeal.

You saw it with the mac. All the weenies said the mac was stupid and a waste of money, all you needed was DOS. They mocked mac users and their cute little garbage cans and said DOS was what real computer users use. Then Windows 3.1 came around. The UI sucked. The weenies said that to be a cool computer user, you had to know how to fool around with Regedit, and it was still better than Mac. It wasn't. It sucked. Then came windows XP. It was basically a mac. Then the weenies immediately went to their control panels and changed their OS theme to the old Windows NT one, instead of the slicker XP one, because real nerd don't need fancy color and they believed it was essential for the ordinary user to save a couple GPU cycles on rendering. Which is a load of crap.

Then came the iPhone. The consensus among weenies was that to have a good smartphone, you had to have a physical keyboard (like the Blackberry), or you had to have a pen input device (like the Palm). Because all weenies know, any serious person types on a keyboard where you can feel the keys with your fingertips, or, if writing, uses a more precise instrument to point like a pen than your finger and learns to write in a heretofore never described hieroglyphic (Palm). Nerdy little guys everywhere were keeping little plastic pens for their Palm computers in their pocket protectors, and they felt this was important to have the finest pointed pointing device possible. Because precision is very important! Then the iPhone came out, and someone decided that all the weenies were just weenies, it's much easier to just point with a finger. They didn't include a pen, because to do so would have been a problem for a capacitive touch screen, and because they knew that if they included a pen, all the weenies would write programs for the iPhone with 50 or a hundred tiny buttons the size of sprinkles on every screen that you could only press with a very tiny weenie-pen that the ordinary person didn't want to bother to keep around. As always, the weenies were completely wrong about what ordinary people wanted. Weenies wanted a precise technological device. Ordinary people wanted something with the lowest intimidation factor possible that could be used without frankly having to engage their brain any more than possible. Because really, they've got other things to do.

Then came the iPad. Once again, weenies thought this must have a keyboard or some other sort of physical input device, because obviously if you're going to pay more for something more useful, it has to be more powerful and allow for faster, more efficient input. Once again, the weenies were wrong. Apple released the iPad, which was basically just a big iPhone. One of the biggest weenies of them all, Steve Ballmer, laughed. Then Apple sold a gazillion of them, and it wasn't so funny anymore. Engineers were disappointed to see such a "stupid" product sell so well, since it would be so much more engineering-chic to have a lightweight device with a tiny keyboard to type on at their engineering meetings. Meanwhile, ordinary people sat on their couches using their iPads, slovenly chowing down Cheetos and spilling crumbs all over the impervious surface, poking their fingers around the web for an hour or two before falling asleep with their more or less indestructible panel-shaped ipads falling between the cracks of their couch. Little two-year old kids poked around at their ipad screens giggling, spilling juice on them, and watching reruns of Barney the Dinosaur.

Weenies are almost always wrong about what 90% of the world wants.

GRANTED, I do think that the iPhone skeumorphism could use some refreshment. From my perspective, the most important thing would be to update / regionalize it in some way. For example, I'm pretty sure that everyone in the US knows what the general use of yellow lined paper is, but that may not be the case elsewhere in the world. In Japan, I seriously doubt they use yellow lined paper for much of anything. But that's a regionalization problem, not a general interface problem.
And since you can do more with software than you can a pad of paper why not make the notes app more capable.
Because it's a notepad. For taking notes, and clipping and pasting little bits of information from here and there into one place for future reference. Having a notepad that uses multiple fonts is actually a pain in the ass, because then every time you cut and paste a little piece of information from the web into your notepad, it comes out with a different font and a different font size, designed for a web page ten times the size, looking quite retarded and illegible. Then, you'll find when you continue on typing, you're typing with the same font as the last letter of the last thing you pasted into your notepad, which is probably huge and taking up 10 times the space that you want it to. Then you have to dick around trying to get the font back to some semblance of something uniform and orderly (organized). It's a huge pain in the ass.

Unfortunately, the genius who made the NotePad for OS X didn't get this, so if you cut and paste things from elsewhere it comes out looking like crap.

Eventually people start to remember what app they're in based on the color scheme. White and black/gray with color as an accent looks a lot cleaner than the mishmash we have now.

Eventually? Why should a UI adopt something that people will "eventually" get used to, rather than something that is immediately apparent and uses little or no thought?

Frankly, I'm not interested in wasting any brain cells to have to remember what color scheme is more in-keeping with a calendar than an e-mail. I have better things to do.

... Clearly, kids love skeumorphism, older people love skeumorphism, and probably the majority of people in between would rather use it. In my opinion, mostly, the people who find it offensive are probably weenies.

I'll reserve judgment on the new UI until I see it. But, if remembering colors are an important component of thinking about how to use it, I can tell you, that already pretty much sucks. I'll hope there is something else to go on.
 
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moderately

macrumors 6502
Sep 7, 2010
323
20
If this comes to pass - thousands of no talent graphic designers will finally get their shot.

Flat icons and layouts can be banged out in MS paint in about a minute. It's lame and reeks of no creativity.

A great hardware designer does not equal a great graphics designer.

Comments like these show such an appalling lack of understanding/sense that I am nearly dumbstruck. This is equivilant of saying that someone who limits their writing to conform to a poem format is by definition a hack.
A red square with a word is easy to do. To make it look good is not. Simplicity is hard if it is to be done well. I imagine that many people will not be able to see the difference, at least consciously.
 

Xiroteus

macrumors 65816
Mar 31, 2012
1,297
75
What evidence do you have that Apple removed the optical drive for the sole reason of making the machine thinner?

None, I can only speculate.

They can be a bit obsessed with making everything thinker to the point of losing function, power etc... they are likely moving away from optical drives because they seem to think either no one owns any disk media anymore (even though it is a current format that still sells millions along with collections people already have and is nothing like floppy disks) to put more focus on their overpriced digital downloads. (I only touch apps and music) Aside from the Macbook Air not having an optical drive (I want blu-ray) makes it feel too impaired for the cost, I am fine with it for the Air because the nature of the machine, an iMac and the newer laptops not having that option is crazy to me.

*Note I say option, there are enough people that would like the retina Macbook being the same size just so they could get more battery life, power, storage etc... Instead of making it thinner they likely could have done something more functional with it, be it the Macbook or iMac.
 

Compile 'em all

macrumors 601
Apr 6, 2005
4,130
323
I think my original statement stands very well.
It's actually not that complicated. It's a very simple solution that works.

Some people like the red iPod and some like the black.
Some choose the bondi blue iMac and some prefer the yellow.
Some choose translucent menu in desktop Mac OS and some prefer solid, or aquamarine, or blue.


Apple has catered to user appearance likes/dislikes on the hardware and software side for a loooongg time in almost all of it's products.
This is concept is no different.

Giving you the option to change how translucent a menu bar in "Mac OS X" is something and letting you customize how default apps look on "iOS" is entirely different.
 

nelmat

macrumors 6502a
Jul 10, 2008
798
58
I already have an order of magnitude free SMS than I know what to do with. That's not a benefit compared to the loss of data robustness and the ability to send in low signal qualities that SMS has.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense and I don't think you understand what iMessage is. Where exactly is the negative in automatically having SMS sent as free iMessages where available, falling back to SMS when iMessage is available, all fully automatic from within one app called messages. Doesn't get any easier than that. Where is data robustness 'lost'?
 
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