OS X 10.5.8 Development Wrapping Up?

[Eidorian]

I've outlined my reasons several times - its not my responsibility to regurgitate the same things over and over again.

I went and checked your posting history back 25 posts. You didn't bring anything up until I asked you.

I don't really consider the following to be very good reasons.

• Microsoft - their products suck
• Microsoft refuses to be self critical so here we are, Windows 7, and still riddled from top to bottom with crud.

I asked you to clarify on them. I also answered your question about my waking from sleep problems which isn't related just to me either. I've had to link other users making new threads to those old ones.

I believe that Microsoft has been very critical with Vista and made more appropriate changes in 7.

 

[celticpride678]

• Microsoft - their products suck
• Microsoft refuses to be self critical so here we are, Windows 7, and still riddled from top to bottom with crud.

Straight and to the point. Nice post!

 

[macintoshtoffy]

I went and checked your posting history back 25 posts. You didn't bring anything up until I asked you.

I don't really consider the following to be very good reasons.

• Microsoft - their products suck
• Microsoft refuses to be self critical so here we are, Windows 7, and still riddled from top to bottom with crud.

I asked you to clarify on them. I also answered your question about my waking from sleep problems which isn't related just to me either. I've had to link other users making new threads to those old ones.

I believe that Microsoft has been very critical with Vista and made more appropriate changes in 7.

1) Cruft is still hanging around, two examples of this: their widgets/controls are still utilising GDI/GDI+ which is either unaccelerated (Windows Vista) or semi-acceerated (Windows 7, if your device vendor can be bothered providing WDDM 1.1 drivers) - even though Direct2D/DirectWriter are available on Windows 7 and should be used instead.

Printer attempts to maintain backwards compatibility by retrofitting a compatibility layer ontop of the new printing system which encourages vendors to create drivers that work based on doing the least amount of work possible instead of re-writing the drivers to use the new printing system.

2) The very structure of the whole file system is stupid; DLL's sprayed left, right and centre, no logical lay out, and vendors who keep spraying their custom DLL's through the system where they are left even after uninstalling; couple that with the file locking which results in half-done uninstalls, things aren't going to get better.

3) The GUI is horrible; there is no consistency when it comes to not only widgets/controls being used by the bundled applications but the complete lack of any consistent interface design; in Windows 7 there are now even more variations coupled with a lack of standardised keyboard short cuts, things aren't getting better.

They are three points, I can point out many more - but you're not interested in dialogue but instead character assassination.

 

[Eidorian]

1) Cruft is still hanging around, two examples of this: their widgets/controls are still utilising GDI/GDI+ which is either unaccelerated (Windows Vista) or semi-acceerated (Windows 7, if your device vendor can be bothered providing WDDM 1.1 drivers) - even though Direct2D/DirectWriter are available on Windows 7 and should be used instead.

Who still isn't on the WDDM 1.1 train yet? I find it hard to blame Microsoft for third party device drivers. I'm impressed that they covered even the most recent hardware in their bundled drivers. I agree that GDI/GDI+ shouldn't still be used.

2) The very structure of the whole file system is stupid; DLL's sprayed left, right and centre, no logical lay out, and vendors who keep spraying their custom DLL's through the system where they are left even after uninstalling; couple that with the file locking which results in half-done uninstalls, things aren't going to get better.

It's hard to blame Microsoft there for another vendor's software.

3) The GUI is horrible; there is no consistency when it comes to not only widgets/controls being used by the bundled applications but the complete lack of any consistent interface design; in Windows 7 there are now even more variations coupled with a lack of standardised keyboard short cuts, things aren't getting better.

I haven't had any problems with the keyboard shortcuts and have picked up a few new ones for Aero Peek. The GUI portion is a bit too subjective as well. There have been marked improvements over Vista's cluster of layouts though and excessive depth to complete a task. It isn't up to par with Apple's HIG and kits but 7 is better over Vista.

They are three points, I can point out many more - but you're not interested in dialogue but instead character assassination.

You fleshed out your points in excessive detail. I'm not sure what else you think I'm demanding of you. I don't see how you can interpret me asking you to elaborate as inherently hostile. I don't see a reason for going into your posting history with other users in other threads either. It's not relevant in this one.

 

[twoodcc]

sounds to me that 10.5.8 should be out very soon then

 

[castlema]

10.10, 10.11, 10.12... hehe.

There is a Mac OS X 10.4.11

I still would go with 10.A, 10.B and so on. Why be restricted to base 10?

 

[LagunaSol]

They are three points, I can point out many more

B..b..b..but I thought Windows 7 was supposed to be the BEST OS EVAH!!!

 

[Eidorian]

B..b..b..but I thought Windows 7 was supposed to be the BEST OS EVAH!!!

You get burned regardless hoping Apple will fix your problems in said next version of OS X. With you and your users huddled around your speakers listening to someone's live audio stream of WWDC of the next big promise and 300 features. "They'll get it right this time!", someone exclaims with joy.

I'm still buying OS X and Windows nonetheless even if those problems haven't been fixed. It's good "enough" for the rest of us.

Those that have sworn to never again have hopefully moved on elsewhere.

 

[LagunaSol]

With you and your users huddled around your speakers listening to someone's live audio stream of WWDC of the next big promise and 300 features. "They'll get it right this time!", someone exclaims with joy.

Versus sitting in a befuddled crowd watching some sweat-soaked primate jumping around a stage screaming about developers, sitting on finger-crossed hands just hoping and praying it will suck "slightly less" this time...

 

[Eidorian]

Versus sitting in a befuddled crowd watching some sweat-soaked primate jumping around a stage screaming about developers, sitting on finger-crossed hands just hoping and praying it will suck "slightly less" this time...

[sarcasm]Jobs and Ballmer are the absolutes for each company. There is nothing else.[/sarcasm]

I don't see how it is relevant to drag either poor sod in. Was I supposed to say something else? Maybe it's time to move on.

 

[LagunaSol]

Was I supposed to say something else?

No. Were you?

 

[Eidorian]

No. Were you?

Apparently some people have outrageous expectations of me. Haven't we had this specific conversation several times before? I don't understand your desire to keep repeating it.

I keep getting "promises" and have hope only to get burned regardless. I don't see a reason to have blind faith. It's software, eh. I get what I want done at the end of the day.

 

[JFreak]

It's hard to blame Microsoft there for another vendor's software.

Actually, it's quite easy. Microsoft has made the platform thus given guidelines to the 3rd parties. It is in fact Microsoft who says "do this to make it work" and therefore the mess we know as Windows is totally Microsoft's mess whether there are 3rd party software installed or not.

Compare this to Apple's platform where you drag an application to the Applications folder, use it, and then trash it if you don't like it anymore. The whole application is erased at once, leaving only user preference file behind. This would be equivalent to registry markings in Windows, but there's one difference: registry gets messed up in time (it becomes close to impossible to clean), but in OSX you can just create a new user and start with skeleton home directory. Then delete the old user and the plethora of user setting files are gone for good.

If it is forbidden to blame Microsoft about the mess they've done, then perhaps this would be a good place to praise Apple for embracing UNIX and thus avoiding the mess

 

[adrian.oconnor]

now if only when i wake my computer up with an external monitor, it would connect to a wifi network without having to toggle airport on and off!

I had this problem on my iMac at home. It was incredibly frustrating. In the end I got around it by getting an AirPort Extreme and using it in 5Ghz wireless-n mode. It connects every time now. If you've got an AirPort, it might be worth switching to 5Ghz mode to see if it makes a difference?

 

[macintoshtoffy]

Actually, it's quite easy. Microsoft has made the platform thus given guidelines to the 3rd parties. It is in fact Microsoft who says "do this to make it work" and therefore the mess we know as Windows is totally Microsoft's mess whether there are 3rd party software installed or not.

Compare this to Apple's platform where you drag an application to the Applications folder, use it, and then trash it if you don't like it anymore. The whole application is erased at once, leaving only user preference file behind. This would be equivalent to registry markings in Windows, but there's one difference: registry gets messed up in time (it becomes close to impossible to clean), but in OSX you can just create a new user and start with skeleton home directory. Then delete the old user and the plethora of user setting files are gone for good.

If it is forbidden to blame Microsoft about the mess they've done, then perhaps this would be a good place to praise Apple for embracing UNIX and thus avoiding the mess

There was an interesting video where the architects of the registry said that their biggest failing was the lack of a policy on how programmers should use it - the net result was it became the dumping ground for any old thing that tickled the programmers fancy. The net result was something that grew out of control and turned into this beast we see today.

In reply to Eidorian, Microsoft is the worse offender of this; why do they have 64bit components in System32? why isn't there a clean separation between the various components? I remember having to hunt down drivers and the components seem to be thrown in any old place.

Compare that to UNIX and the logical layout - with Solaris generally being the one that plonks user applications not part of the system in the /opt directory. I would sooner see something like that with a sane packaging system than the mess we see today where its like a Hungarian goulash.

 

[PenguinPower]

In reply to Eidorian, Microsoft is the worse offender of this; why do they have 64bit components in System32? why isn't there a clean separation between the various components? I remember having to hunt down drivers and the components seem to be thrown in any old place.

To my knowledge, in 64-bit installs of vista and 7 system32 is for 64-bit storage of system files and sysWOW64 is the 32-bit compatibility folder for files. I imagine there is some compatibly concern from installations that prevents the name change. Hopefully, after windows 7, there will no longer be 32-bit builds alongside 64-bit builds and there will be naming and structure refinement.

I agree that the registry is bloated, but I believe it is partially due to the huge historic aggregation that windows lugs around for compatibility. The same reason the winSXS folder exists as a depository of multiple versions of system files. Any change that endangers compatibility has a history of being dragged out over a long period. Looking at the overhaul in the way windows handles device drivers from xp to vista (Of which I must say the model is more stable in vista/7), there was a mess in not having device software ready. When I was using an early build of vista, my nvidia driver stopped working and was restarted by the OS instead of BSODing. The new driver model of keeping things at arm's length to the system is guud. The new windows Universal Audio Architecture is a godsend over the old model of leaving it up to the driver developers. That change, again was drug out since being announced in 2002, then released in vista. I imagine if Microsoft is ever going to start the death knell for the registry, the desired shorter development cycles between OS releases, compared to xp->vista, will foster getting rid of more schlock and enforcing more 3rd party application development policies.

 

[bogg]

What makes you think that? The only numbered update Apple has ever made to a previous OS version was 10.4.11, which came out only a couple of weeks after Leopard's release.

Leopard is the last PPC-compatible version, which would make it quite realistic to think they will keep updates coming for a while after SL has been released

 

[ZaoPetra]

100% agreement

I am pretty upset that there are no changes to Finder in Snow Leopard. The biggest pain of switching from windows has been getting used to Finders shortcomings.

Moving a bunch of folders into a folder that contains the same folder names completely overwrites the folders instead of merging. This is a huge pain when a move operation fails half way and you cant pick up where you left off.

There is no address bar in finder to copy a path.

No Cut and Paste. (Thats right I said it!)

Viewing a folder full of images in thumbnail mode is a pain in the ass to switch between thumbnail sizes. You have to go into view options to change it.
Coverflow is about as useless as my tailbone!

Mapped network drives are a huge pain. Once you get one mapped they only show up on your desktop and under your computer name in the devices list of finder. You have to manually drag it so that it shows up directly on the devices list.
Shared list of network computers in the finder side bar is a waste of time. Try using it on a network with a couple hundred computers. Even if you are already connected to a network share when you click the computer name on the network shares side bar you still have to wait a few seconds until finder gets a refreshed list of available shares on that computer....

That was well said. It seems to me that the folks over at Apple really don't use windows very much or they would be aware of how bad the finder is. Also, I've always hated the way Apple resizes windows. Some people say it sizes to the need to the content of the window, but I am routinely left with having to scroll through the new window.

 

[JPamplin]

Back to the topic, for a moment...

Will 10.5.8 have the ATI driver fix which has disabled VMWare 3D Acceleration?

I can't believe they wouldn't try to work that in.

JP

 

[CQd44]

I hope this doesn't break my OSX86 D:

Well, if it breaks the internet I know how to fix that.

 

[star-affinity]

I am pretty upset that there are no changes to Finder in Snow Leopard. The biggest pain of switching from windows has been getting used to Finders shortcomings.

Moving a bunch of folders into a folder that contains the same folder names completely overwrites the folders instead of merging. This is a huge pain when a move operation fails half way and you cant pick up where you left off.

There is no address bar in finder to copy a path.

No Cut and Paste. (Thats right I said it!)

Viewing a folder full of images in thumbnail mode is a pain in the ass to switch between thumbnail sizes. You have to go into view options to change it.
Coverflow is about as useless as my tailbone!

Mapped network drives are a huge pain. Once you get one mapped they only show up on your desktop and under your computer name in the devices list of finder. You have to manually drag it so that it shows up directly on the devices list.
Shared list of network computers in the finder side bar is a waste of time. Try using it on a network with a couple hundred computers. Even if you are already connected to a network share when you click the computer name on the network shares side bar you still have to wait a few seconds until finder gets a refreshed list of available shares on that computer....

All valid points I think. But I don't really believe Windows handles the ”cut and paste” very well when a problem occurs during the move between say, two volumes. I've had situations where I didn't know what was moved properly.

Also, I believe they've in Snow Leopard added a ”resize icon” handle in all Finder windows. No need to go to View Options.

 

[Eidorian]

Actually, it's quite easy. Microsoft has made the platform thus given guidelines to the 3rd parties. It is in fact Microsoft who says "do this to make it work" and therefore the mess we know as Windows is totally Microsoft's mess whether there are 3rd party software installed or not.

Microsoft has done a good job to drag third parties kicking and screaming into this era of Vista and 7. Apple has the same task with Cocoa. Play by the rules or get left behind regardless of the platform. I don't see how it's only a Microsoft thing.

Compare this to Apple's platform where you drag an application to the Applications folder, use it, and then trash it if you don't like it anymore. The whole application is erased at once, leaving only user preference file behind. This would be equivalent to registry markings in Windows, but there's one difference: registry gets messed up in time (it becomes close to impossible to clean),

Library folders and files still live on. Only delete the iWork and iLife apps from /Applications. See what's left. Lets not even talk about VM software.

but in OSX you can just create a new user and start with skeleton home directory. Then delete the old user and the plethora of user setting files are gone for good.

Why can't you do this in another operating system again?

If it is forbidden to blame Microsoft about the mess they've done, then perhaps this would be a good place to praise Apple for embracing UNIX and thus avoiding the mess

Does that give me a free pass to blame Apple when a third party is still clinging to deprecated APIs?

I never said it was forbidden either. I just found it hard to pass the blame to Microsoft for a lazy third party software vendor. I see people drag Adobe up to this pedestal but they never blame Apple for it. Should I start blaming Apple now?

Apple makes a hearty margin on their hardware sales. OS X and iLife are practically given away. I don't see how Microsoft could survive a change like Classic to OS X being a software vendor. A more solid update cycle compared to the one between XP and Vista is a good start.

 

[HyperZboy]

At this point, I am way more interested in Snow Leopard than updates to Leopard!!!

I know I'll get slammed for this but I gotta say it because its how I feel...

For any PowerPC user, any bug fixes or interface gaffes fixed in Snow Leopard that are not fixed in 10.5.8 will be a kick in the teeth for anyone who paid $129 for Leopard if this is the last Leopard release, considering Snow Leopard is little more than a SERVICE PACK release with a $29 price tag.

My suggestion to Apple would be to continue to update Leopard for PowerPC, but discontinue development for Leopard for Intel unless there is some major bug found in the future. I don't think that's too much to ask considering we ALL paid $129 for Leopard, yet ONLY SOME OF US are getting the BUG FIXES in Snow Leopard.

 

[wetrix]

now if only when i wake my computer up with an external monitor, it would connect to a wifi network without having to toggle airport on and off!

I fixed this problem by replacing my netgear wireless router with a Time Capsule. Expensive, but it worked.

it's frustrating to be remind again and again that they still can't permanently fix the sleep/wake issue.....up to 10.5.8

Indeed. I'm really looking forward to 10.5.8. 24" of LED brightness wakes me up at night.

+ X cuts in most situations.

But not for files :-(

 

[macintoshtoffy]

I know I'll get slammed for this but I gotta say it because its how I feel...

For any PowerPC user, any bug fixes or interface gaffes fixed in Snow Leopard that are not fixed in 10.5.8 will be a kick in the teeth for anyone who paid $129 for Leopard if this is the last Leopard release, considering Snow Leopard is little more than a SERVICE PACK release with a $29 price tag.

My suggestion to Apple would be to continue to update Leopard for PowerPC, but discontinue development for Leopard for Intel unless there is some major bug found in the future. I don't think that's too much to ask considering we ALL paid $129 for Leopard, yet ONLY SOME OF US are getting the BUG FIXES in Snow Leopard.

Why? When the Intel transition was mentioned people were still purchasing G5 PowerMac's. They knew what they were buying as a dead asset - many cases they were only upgrading a marginally slower G5 PowerMac with another one.

Regarding Snow Leopard only being a bug fix - that is a flat out lie; explain to me why it is only a service pack given that Microsoft was quite happy to sell 32bit Windows Vista then have the check to charge the customer if they wanted the 64bit media. Tell me how it is a service pack with Apple re-writing the whole finder in Cocoa when compared to Microsoft who is still using GDI to render the widgets/controls on all their applications even though it has been deprecated and should have moved to DirectWrite/Direct2D already.

You sound foolish spouting the same lies over and over again in a vein hope of garnering a fan base to support what ever personal issues you may have.