Upgrading old Mac Pro to 8800 GT graphics?

The best option now is probably to reverse engineer the firmware and make it compatible with old Macs.

Spades said:

The best option now is probably to reverse engineer the firmware and make it compatible with old Macs.

Click to expand...

Well, the firmware is 40 000 lines of x86-64 assembly, and more than 100 functions ... good luck.

We all have to write Steve an apology for doubting his business practices, and promise to buy a new Mac every other year. Then he will deliver.

All kidding a side. Steve wins, I need to start rendering and would rather have faster ram, and 4 cores more anyway. Good luck guys. If my x1900 didn't have a bug in Linux that hasn't been fixed in 2 years already, time to move on. Like I said.......8 cores are better than 4.

dreamof3d said:

All kidding a side. Steve wins, I need to start rendering and would rather have faster ram, and 4 cores more anyway. Good luck guys. If my x1900 didn't have a bug in Linux that hasn't been fixed in 2 years already, time to move on. Like I said.......8 cores are better than 4.

Click to expand...

Yea sry, we don't crap out gold. But maybe you do.

knome said:

Yea sry, we don't crap out gold. But maybe you do.

Click to expand...

You dont have to crap out gold to upgrade to a new mac pro every year. Just sell the previous mac pro rig for 75% of the price you paid and just put extra $$ in to buy the newer machine.

As for dreamof3d, I dont know what he does for a living but if his job depended on how much faster he can render effects with a faster cpu, then by all means its necessary to upgrade to a faster machine every year to actually earn more money for saving time.

I simply remodel houses, and work is slow. Two years ago I removed drinking booze/partying from my life and spend my free time learning 3d. Removing bad habits is a real easy way to save money for other habits(like buying a new Mac every year) LOL I'm hoping to eventually make money with my mac. Just got to have the latest machine. This one will be sold, and all I'll need is about $800.00. No small deal, but whatever makes me happy. Just a hobby But thanks jjahshik32

SolidShadow said:

Let me know how the x1900 compares for you Father Jack.
I've read so many bad reviews even from Apple's site, I'm gun shy.

Click to expand...

The x1900xt card is fine BUT OMG it's noisy ....
I'll give it a couple of days trial but I can see myself going back to the 7300GT (no fan = no noise) ..

FJ

The only time I hear my x1900 is when I boot the system, run Linux, or play a game in full res. Then the 120 watt 5.1 surround sound kinda drowns that out.

Thanks Father Jack!
I do play WoW fairly regularly. Sound isn't a huge issue.
What got me was overheating issues leading to screen tearing and other stuff.
Add to that people reporting failed or burned out cards, even from Apple's website and it's enough to make me keep my money.
At least for now until I get desperate for an upgrade and am forced to buy one.
Anybody else have more experience with the card?

Got this in my email from Macworld.com:

Peter Cohen of MacWorld.com said:

The case for better Mac Pro graphics cards
By Peter Cohen (pcohen@macworld.com)
When Apple introduced the refreshed Mac Pro in January, 2008, they offered a GeForce 8800 GT graphics card from Nvidia. Unfortunately, that card only works in those new Mac Pros -- anyone with an older Mac is out of luck.

As it turns out, the newer Mac Pros use a different PCI Express interface than what's found in the older systems, and it's enough to make the GeForce 8800 GT card incompatible with those older Macs.

It's peculiar, because the card is not only offered as a configure-to-order option, but also as an upgrade kit. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to offer an upgrade kit for a brand new Mac model, but perhaps I don't understand the vagaries of Apple's inventory system as well as I should.

Certainly at the start, users of older Mac Pros thought that it would be only a matter of time before a patch or firmware upgrade came forth that made those new cards work on older systems. But three months after the introduction of the new card, neither Apple nor Nvidia is forthcoming with any information about what's going on there, and hope dims for older Mac Pro owners.

With any luck, Apple's friends at ATI recognize a market opportunity when they see one and are working on a solution -- perhaps in the form of a new retail graphics card for the Mac Pro based around the company's HD 3000 series graphics processing unit. It'd be the first ATI retail offering for the Mac since the X1900, which came out for the Power Mac G5.

I admit that I'm speculating here, but it'd be nice to see someone -- anyone -- step up to the plate with a product that would help Mac Pro users leverage the investment they've made in expandable hardware with a graphics card that fit the bill.

Click to expand...

The Plot Thickens

I email Steve Jobs every couple days about this issue. He replied once on February 9th, and he finally replied again this morning.

"nVidia didn't come through, so we're having to do it. Should be ready in about a month.

Steve


On Apr 3, 2008, at 11:03 PM, John Peterson wrote:

Come on. You said this thing was being engineered almost two months ago. What is the truth?
We've been had, haven't we?
John Peterson"

I've included my message to him for context. How much more bizarre can this situation become?

My Powerbook just died so I had to buy a new MacBook Pro which as it turns out is only marginally slower than my 2.66 Mac pro at converting raw images and doing general photoshop work (in fact it's the identical speed at doing general photoshop work!). So that's it - seeing as the MacPro offers no graphics advantage, it's being kicked out before it's even got it's feet under the table!

So now to buy a PC with a proper graphics card for fun. I know nothing about PC's so was wondering if anyone can give me some pointers - I want to spend as little on it as possible but want it to be a very good games machine (doesn't need to do anything else) that can handle the latest graphics card.

Can I just buy a cheap Dell and stick a top graphics card in - it doesn't say on their website how upgradable they are (that would be funny, buying a Dell to find I can't put a new graphics card in it!). Or should I build the thing myself? Or any other thoughts?

Thanks

lloyd709 said:

My Powerbook just died so I had to buy a new MacBook Pro which as it turns out is only marginally slower than my 2.66 Mac pro at converting raw images and doing general photoshop work (in fact it's the identical speed at doing general photoshop work!). So that's it - seeing as the MacPro offers no graphics advantage, it's being kicked out before it's even got it's feet under the table!

So now to buy a PC with a proper graphics card for fun. I know nothing about PC's so was wondering if anyone can give me some pointers - I want to spend as little on it as possible but want it to be a very good games machine (doesn't need to do anything else) that can handle the latest graphics card.

Can I just buy a cheap Dell and stick a top graphics card in - it doesn't say on their website how upgradable they are (that would be funny, buying a Dell to find I can't put a new graphics card in it!). Or should I build the thing myself? Or any other thoughts?

Thanks

Click to expand...

The biggest thing to watch is for the type of expansion slots on the machine.
My mother has a Dell Dimension, 1gig ram, P4 with hyperthreading.

Granted this machine is like 2 years old, it was hard to find a graphics card because it has a PCI expansion port. Not PCIe like we have or PCIe2.0 (new Mac pro's), or some have an AGP, which PCIe replaced. Any card should work providing the interface matches. In her case, I grabbed a crappy radeon clone at Walmart for $75.00 good enough to have an (extended desktop) It actually worked fine with Call of Duty 2............

As it turns out, the newer Mac Pros use a different PCI Express interface than what's found in the older systems, and it's enough to make the GeForce 8800 GT card incompatible with those older Macs.

Click to expand...

As has been established, that's simply not true. The problem is in the firmware on the card not working with the EFI in the old Mac Pros. PC 8800 GTs work in PCI Express 1.0 slots just fine. This is a fixable software issue.

dreamof3d said:

The biggest thing to watch is for the type of expansion slots on the machine.
My mother has a Dell Dimension, 1gig ram, P4 with hyperthreading.

Granted this machine is like 2 years old, it was hard to find a graphics card because it has a PCI expansion port. Not PCIe like we have or PCIe2.0 (new Mac pro's), or some have an AGP, which PCIe replaced. Any card should work providing the interface matches. In her case, I grabbed a crappy radeon clone at Walmart for $75.00 good enough to have an (extended desktop) It actually worked fine with Call of Duty 2............

Click to expand...

Agree. Old MP's have PCIe 1.1 and new ones have PCIe 2.0, with 2.0 being the new standard. I'm not sure how many PC motherboards have this, but I would imagine that if you are planning for future upgrades, you should try to get a PC motherboard with at least one PCIe 2.0 16x slot.
As far as cards go, the nVidia 9-series is supposed to be pretty good for a decent gaming machine.

EDIT: Just looked on ZipZoomFly and can't find any PCIe 2.0. Maybe the Mac Pro is the only one using it or maybe I just didn't look hard enough.

antzona said:

The Plot Thickens

I email Steve Jobs every couple days about this issue. He replied once on February 9th, and he finally replied again this morning.

"nVidia didn't come through, so we're having to do it. Should be ready in about a month.

Steve


On Apr 3, 2008, at 11:03 PM, John Peterson wrote:

Come on. You said this thing was being engineered almost two months ago. What is the truth?
We've been had, haven't we?
John Peterson"

I've included my message to him for context. How much more bizarre can this situation become?

Click to expand...

The plot does indeed thicken. Perhaps we're getting a firmware upgrade to EFI 64 bit for our old machines. This is getting exciting.

Hopefully Jobs was not talking about his butt and a 8600 for first gen Mac Pro will be out soon and is being worked on. Seems to be a month late from the his esitmation.. but as long as it comes out in the next 1-2 months I will be a lot happier.

Looking at the BoXX site, I checked out this NVIDIA Quadro. This one would work in most likely Windoz only, but it's a PCIe board that is also PCIe 2.0 ready. Card sounds perfect in the respect that it will give u a few years of joy......Check it out:

NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 512MB PCIe
NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 by PNY Technologies delivers performance and quality on high-end CAD, DCC, and visualization applications to the professional user. Featuring NVIDIA’s new unified architecture, the Quadro FX 3700 professional graphics board dynamically allocates geometry, shading, pixel processing, and compute power to deliver optimized GPU performance while enabling Energy Star power savings.

List Price: $949.99
Our Price: $879.99

Add NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 512MB PCIe to Your Cart to Order Securely Online • or • Call 800-544-6599 to Order By Phone
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NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 512MB PCIe Specifications

The reference standard for Shader Model 4.0, the Quadro FX 3700 enables next-generation, ultra-realistic, real-time OpenGL® and DirectX 10 visualization applications. With two dual-link DVI connectors, the Quadro FX 3700 also offers the industry’s best image quality at resolutions up to 2560 x 1600 @ 60Hz.

The NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 by PNY takes demanding CAD, DCC and visualization applications to new levels of interactivity by offering unprecedented capabilities in programmability and precision. The industry’s leading workstation applications leverage NVIDIA’s industry-leading unified architecture Quadro GPU technology to realize innovative new hardware-accelerated features and superior performance - along with certification for stability and outstanding display quality. The NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 by PNY ideally complements and extends the performance of any high-end professional workstation.

Key Features and Benefits

* NVIDIA Unified Architecture: Industry’s first unified architecture designed to dynamically allocate compute, geometry, shading and pixel processing power to deliver optimized GPU performance.
* GPU Computing : NVIDIA CUDATM provides a C language environment and tool suite that unleashes new computational capabilities to solve complex, visualization challenges such as real-time ray tracing and interactive volume rendering.
* Shader Model 4.0: Next-Generation Vertex and Pixel Programmability: Reference standard for Shader Model 4.0, enabling a higher level of performance and ultra-realistic effects for next generation OpenGL and DirectX 10 professional applications.
* PCI Express 2.0 Support : Doubles the data transfer rate up to 5 GBps per lane, for an aggregate bandwidth of 16 GBps bi-directional (8 GBps in each direction).
* NVIDIA SLITM Technology: NVIDIA SLI technology enables dynamically scalable graphics performance, enhanced image quality, and expanded display real-estate.
* Ultra-Quiet Design : Acoustics at sub 40 db, for a quiet desktop environment.
* Full-Scene Antialiasing (FSAA): Up to 32x FSAA dramatically reduces visual aliasing artifacts of "jaggies," resulting in highly realistic scenes.
* Rotated-Grid Full-Scene Antialiasing (RG FSAA): The rotated grid FSAA sampling algorithm introduces far greater sophistication in the sampling pattern, significantly increasing color accuracy and visual quality for edges and lines, reducing "jaggies" while maintaining performance.
* Fast 3D Textures: Fast transfer and manipulation of 3D textures resulting in more interactive visualization of large volumetric dataset.
* nView® Multi-Display Technology (available spring, 2008):The NVIDIA nView hardware and software technology combination delivers maximum flexibility for multi-display options, and provides unprecedented end-user control of the desktop experience.
* NVIDIA® PureVideoTM Technology: NVIDIA PureVideo technology is the combination of high-definition video processors and software that delivers unprecedented picture clarity, smooth video, accurate color, and precise image scaling for SD and HD video content. Features include, high-quality scaling, spatial temporal de-interlacing, inverse telecine, and high quality HD video playback from DVD.
* Unified Driver Architecture: The NVIDIA UDA guarantees forward and backward compatibility with software drivers. Simplifies upgrading to a new NVIDIA product because all NVIDIA products work with the same driver software.
* Essential for Microsoft Windows Vista: Offering an enriched 3D user interface, increased application performance, and the highest image quality, NVIDIA Quadro graphics boards and NVIDIA OpenGL ICD drivers are optimized for 32and 64-bit architectures to enable the Windows® VistaTM experience.

Specifications

* General
o 512MB GDDR3 frame buffer
o 256-bit memory interface
o 51.2 GB/sec memory bandwidth
o Twin dual-link DVI-I 1.0 display connectors
o 3-pin mini-DIN stereo connector
o Single NVIDIA SLI 26-pin edge connector
o Single 6-pin PCI Express power connector
o PCI Express x16 bus interface
o 78 W maximum power consumption
o Auxiliary power connector - yes, 1
o Active fansink thermal management
o ATX form factor, 4.38" (H) x 9.0" (L)
o Number of slots, 1
* NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 by PNY Architecture
o 128-bit color precision
o Unlimited fragment instruction
o Unlimited vertex instruction
o 3D volumetric texture support
o 12 pixels per clock rendering engine
o Hardware accelerated antialiased points and lines
o Hardware OpenGL overlay planes
o Hardware accelerated two-sided lighting
o Hardware accelerated clipping planes
o 3rd generation occlusion culling
o 16 textures per pixel in fragment programs
o Window ID clipping functionality
o Hardware accelerated line stippling
* Shading Architecture
o Full Shader Model 4.0 (OpenGL 2.1/DirectX 10 class)
o Long fragment programs (unlimited instructions)
o Long vertex programs (unlimited instructions)
o Looping and subroutines (up to 256 loops per vertex program)
o Dynamic flow control
o Conditional execution
* High Level Shader Languages
o Optimized complier for Cg and Microsoft HLSL
o OpenGL 2.1 and DirectX 10 support
o Open source compiler
* Display Resolution Support
o Dual-link DVI-I outputs drive two digital displays at resolutions up to 2560 x 1600 @ 60Hz
o Internal 400MHz DACs drive two analog displays up to 2048 x 1536 at 85Hz
* Package Contains
o NVIDIA Quadro FX 3700 by PNY graphics board
o Two DVI-I to VGA adapters
o Drivers for Windows Vista and XP
o Detailed Installation Guide
o Quickstart Installation Guide
o Quadro Application Utilities on CD-ROM (MAXtremeTM, POWERdraftTM)
* Supported Operating Systems
o Microsoft® Windows® Vista (64-bit and 32-bit)
o Microsoft Windows XP (64-bit and 32-bit)
o Microsoft Windows 2000 (32-bit)
o Linux - full OpenGL implementation with NVIDIA and ARB extensions (64-bit and 32-bit)
o AMD64, Intel EM64T
o PCIE Express 2.0 Support

Minimum System Requirements

* PC compatible with Intel Pentium® 4/Xeon® or AMD Opteron® class processor or higher
* Open PCI Express or PCI Express 2.0 x16 slot
* Microsoft Windows Vista, XP, 2000, or Linux
* 512MB system memory
* 50MB of available disk space for full installation
* CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive
* VGA or DVI-I compatible display
* 450W power supply

Lifetime warranty.

Not interested in a card I can only run in windows. I don't even run windows on this machine.
I want a "it just works" solution for OSX
*sigh*
Guess I'll keep waiting. Not going to wait forever though.

SolidShadow said:

Not interested in a card I can only run in windows. I don't even run windows on this machine.
I want a "it just works" solution for OSX
*sigh*
Guess I'll keep waiting. Not going to wait forever though.

Click to expand...

Me neither, lots of people just want a gamers solution, if this card worked on Mac, it would be on its way. Sound like a perfect card for a pro. (if it were mac too) I use windoz for 3 apps not for mac..........

Every time I see one of Jobs's one line replies, I get a little glimmer of hope back. He's sent too many of these promises now to be able to risk not coming through with it. It would be a PR disaster if they never delivered after the CEO had personally sent out a number of assurances that it was going to happen.

What would be really nice would be if he actually applied a bit of business-sense to this whole issue and and surprised us all by providing the latest and greatest NVidia 9xxx or ATI's newest offering instead of the 8800. But hell - even the 8800 would be a welcome relief.

One thing is certain though. We absolutely have to keep this issue alive and keep the pressure on. It's the only way we're going to see a result in the end.

Snowshiro said:

Every time I see one of Jobs's one line replies, I get a little glimmer of hope back. He's sent too many of these promises now to be able to risk not coming through with it. It would be a PR disaster if they never delivered after the CEO had personally sent out a number of assurances that it was going to happen.

Click to expand...

If you stall long enough, the issue goes away. One more month, turns into two more months... then the 1st edition Mac Pro is two years old. That's really old in computer terms. Next, the message turns into "the platform is too old to develop for."

As for being a PR disaster, that would require a large mass of consumers to be viable. I was in the Apple store the other day and saw maybe 50 or 60 people shopping for Apple goodies. Out of all those people, maybe one person was interested in the Mac Pro. The amount of people who want a better graphics card for their older Mac Pros is rather insignificant. Don't hold your breath waiting.

THX1139 said:

If you stall long enough, the issue goes away. One more month, turns into two more months... then the 1st edition Mac Pro is two years old. That's really old in computer terms. Next, the message turns into "the platform is too old to develop for."

As for being a PR disaster, that would require a large mass of consumers to be viable. I was in the Apple store the other day and saw maybe 50 or 60 people shopping for Apple goodies. Out of all those people, maybe one person was interested in the Mac Pro. The amount of people who want a better graphics card for their older Mac Pros is rather insignificant. Don't hold your breath waiting.

Click to expand...

How many people in a Best Buy at any given time are buying a bad ass workstation? That doesn't mean there are not a lot of workstation users. Apple stores are in the mall so of course .. most of those 50-60 ppl probably dont even own an Apple computer.

antzona said:

The Plot Thickens

I email Steve Jobs every couple days about this issue. He replied once on February 9th, and he finally replied again this morning.

"nVidia didn't come through, so we're having to do it. Should be ready in about a month.

Steve


On Apr 3, 2008, at 11:03 PM, John Peterson wrote:

Come on. You said this thing was being engineered almost two months ago. What is the truth?
We've been had, haven't we?
John Peterson"

I've included my message to him for context. How much more bizarre can this situation become?

Click to expand...

Well it's now a real problem for me. My new MacBook Pro is as powerful as my 2.66 Mac Pro which is hence useless to me without a better graphics card. I was about to sell it and use the money to buy a PC but now there's another glimmer of hope. I just don't understand why Steve would say stuff like this on an e-mail to a random guy e-mailing him.