Can anyone confirm that a 9800GTx card works perfectly (in terms of performance and functionality) in the 'old' Mac Pros as long as you only boot under windows (in my case it would be Vista Premium). I just thought I could use my Mac Pro as windows only machine now I have my MacBook Pro. At least then I'll still have it as a backup should I drop my MacBook Pro.
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Upgrading old Mac Pro to 8800 GT graphics?
- Thread starter Fezzy
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Seems Apple should build a new mid range card from the ground up. Even if they get an 8800, or 9800, those were last spring's technology. How 'bout something fresh, fast, and NEW!!!!!!!!!!
I know you are right about this but I am going to give Apple the additional month before I start converting back to PC and Windows. Really the choice is would you rather be ripped off on hardware or software? As aggravating as the DRM stuff and "security are, there is a much bigger and technically sophisticated community creating workarounds for Windows.
The problem with Apple is that there few ways to work around their hardware cripples and the community lacks the technically ability to find solutions. A good example of this is the region lock on DVD players. Another artificial hardware/software cripple to force more dollars out of consumers much like the GPU cripple on the Mac Pros. PC workarounds have been around for years and some notebook DVD drives have dropped the lockout altogether. However, it is still impossible to get around these region locks on most of the Mac lineup. You basically need to buy an external drive which becomes a problem for notebooks.
I know no one has questioned the validity of my messages from Steve Jobs, but I thought I should post the long header just to make sure everyone knew it is legitimate. I replaced my actual email address with "antzona", and put spaces in Steve's email so it wasn't an active link:
From: sjobs @ apple.com
Subject: Re: 8800 GT in older Mac Pro
Date: April 4, 2008 7:29:32 AM PDT
To: antzona
X-Apparently-To: antzona via 68.142.201.32; Fri, 04 Apr 2008 07:29:33 -0700
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Message-Id: <08AD0168-BF7F-4E49-B0A2-A8C070B76CD5@apple.com>
In-Reply-To: <74F6974B-28E2-47CC-AF5D-40EBAC4D5A9A antzona>
References: <68326D0F-53C7-4686-925F-7DC8475EADFA antzona> <31C5BCB8-3845-4F37-9F16-2A0F52E0699E antzona> <6599B911-3557-48EA-86B3-8F8E2534982D@apple.com> <74F6974B-28E2-47CC-AF5D-40EBAC4D5A9A antzona>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2)
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I can't imagine why he would reply unless they were actually trying to solve this issue. He could easily just ignore the emails and wait for us to forget about it. This is twice that he has taken the time to reply, and I believe we will get something eventually. I am surprised that he has now passed a bit of the blame onto nVidia. No idea why they wouldn't come through. Too much work with not enough incentive? Looks like we have another month of waiting ahead of us. I wonder how many posts this thread will have before we finally get a card? I also wonder how many new people will stop by and tell us to stop worrying about it, it's just a video card, and it's not Apple's fault...
From: sjobs @ apple.com
Subject: Re: 8800 GT in older Mac Pro
Date: April 4, 2008 7:29:32 AM PDT
To: antzona
X-Apparently-To: antzona via 68.142.201.32; Fri, 04 Apr 2008 07:29:33 -0700
X-Originating-Ip: [17.254.13.23]
Authentication-Results: mta104.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com from=apple.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig)
Received: from 17.254.13.23 (EHLO mail-out4.apple.com) (17.254.13.23) by mta104.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 04 Apr 2008 07:29:33 -0700
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Received: from relay13.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 1062728050; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:29:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from earhart.apple.com (aldrin.apple.com [17.150.10.19]) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id D065E2804F for <antzona>; Fri, 4 Apr 2008 07:29:32 -0700 (PDT)
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Message-Id: <08AD0168-BF7F-4E49-B0A2-A8C070B76CD5@apple.com>
In-Reply-To: <74F6974B-28E2-47CC-AF5D-40EBAC4D5A9A antzona>
References: <68326D0F-53C7-4686-925F-7DC8475EADFA antzona> <31C5BCB8-3845-4F37-9F16-2A0F52E0699E antzona> <6599B911-3557-48EA-86B3-8F8E2534982D@apple.com> <74F6974B-28E2-47CC-AF5D-40EBAC4D5A9A antzona>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.919.2)
X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA==
I can't imagine why he would reply unless they were actually trying to solve this issue. He could easily just ignore the emails and wait for us to forget about it. This is twice that he has taken the time to reply, and I believe we will get something eventually. I am surprised that he has now passed a bit of the blame onto nVidia. No idea why they wouldn't come through. Too much work with not enough incentive? Looks like we have another month of waiting ahead of us. I wonder how many posts this thread will have before we finally get a card? I also wonder how many new people will stop by and tell us to stop worrying about it, it's just a video card, and it's not Apple's fault...
I've seen numerous posts from people who have used the new ATI HD 2600 in their older Mac Pros, including several who have claimed it worked as a drop-in replacement for their 7300.
My issue with the ATI is it is not a very good gaming card.
I'm just saying that the percentage of Mac Pro users who want to be able to use the new card is miniscule at best. A small percentage of total users own an early Mac Pro, and an even smaller percentage of those Mac Pro owners probably don't need to want the newer card. I'm willing to bet that most early Mac Pro power users (the type who would want the card) have sold off their machines and moved onto 8 cores. That's what I plan to do.
Not to mention the viability of 3rd party PC hardware. That's the part that makes Apple so special (that they control what goes into their boxes), but it also makes for a bad experience when something goes wrong or you want to upgrade. Case in point; my X1900 card died and my Mac Pro was out of warranty. Do you think I could just go to Fry's or Bestbuy and pickup a replacement video card? Eh, no. The shelf at Fry's was full of video cards... all for PC. The only thing they had was an ancient Radeon that was for the G5. When I took my computer to Apple to see if I could get a replacement, they told me that they would have to put in another X1900 for $400! Wow, a premium price for old technology! I asked if I could downgrade the card to something cheaper and more reliable. They told me no, they would have to replace with the same brand of card. Of course I could order online and do it myself... but you get the point. The options for video cards absolutely suck compared to the PC world.
Unless you bought the 8 core 2007 mac pro like me, in which case there's no real incentive to upgrade the whole machine...
I think you're ignoring the fact that Apple's sole professional stronghold is the creative industries (graphic design, video editing etc.) If they crap on their customers in this area too many times, they might as well forget the professional market and give it all up to Windows.
While Apple is no doubt doing very well in the consumer area these days, it's debatable just how much more they can really do with the iPod. It plays music, it has a screen; where can it go from here? Are people really going to be buying iPods in the numbers they have forever? And what if a competitor comes out with something better. The iPhone is doing very well, but can they continue to innovate - at the moment they have more or less the only product of it's type, but there are a whole raft of companies playing catch up, and will be putting out similar products with competitive specs soon (Flash anyone?). Apple would be stupid to think that their consumer products are going to be around forever, and the next one out of the door might be a flop (Apple TV has hardly set the world on fire - so far, they've failed to do with TV/movies what they've done with music).
The point is, that the creative industries have largely remained fairly loyal to Apple for 15 years and there's no reason for that to change. Industry doesn't go through phases and trends in the same way consumer markets do. Apple need to sort out their strategy for their high end workstations, before their professional base looks elsewhere.
So, is this a "Apple is gonna die" post?
Because industry pundits all over the computer biz have been predicting that event since about...1984.
Most high-end animation studios are on Linux. Even Pixar, the animation company that Steve owns doesn't use Macs. As for the graphic design industry, they don't need 8800's unless they are pushing a lot of pixels around. Motion graphics are a different thing... but Apple Motion hasn't really caught on like After Effects. Traditional print, they don't need high-end cards either. Video editors don't need high-end cards - they need raid solutions. Who does that leave? Oh, gamers.. but aren't most of them on Playstation, XBox or PC's?
You're mostly correct. But, I disagree regarding still-image photo editors. For professional photographers, more vRAM is better. Do you know how bogged down a system can get when mass batch editing hi-res photos? The most vRAM you can get on a single GPU for the old Mac Pros is 256MB. 512MB would make a HUGE difference for these creative professionals.
It's not just gamers that are complaining here.
Linux needs a good gpu too! Just the other day, I thought I would try the new Ubuntu "Hardy Heron" my Ati X1900 works fine to display a screen, but goes crazy when enabling the propriety drivers. So without full OpenGL enabled, I was playing with a graphics app called Maya. Just resizing a torus, (dough nut shaped primitive) , and my music that was playing suddenly got jerky, and sputtered. The cpu's were being taxed out without the gpu doing its job.
So I disagree. The new Quadro 3700 that I posted the specs here for specifically refers to full OpenGL for Linux as well as Windoz products
o Microsoft® Windows® Vista (64-bit and 32-bit)
o Microsoft Windows XP (64-bit and 32-bit)
o Microsoft Windows 2000 (32-bit)
o Linux - full OpenGL implementation with NVIDIA and ARB extensions (64-bit and 32-bit)
o AMD64, Intel EM64T
o PCIE Express 2.0 Support
I think it's safe to say that most people here wouldn't want to go "backwards" in vRAM technology. We would like to upgrade from the nVidia 7-series to the nVidia 8 or 9-series. A lot of folks don't like the ATIs (especially your particular model). No offense...
No offense taken.
Fortunately, I haven't had any trouble with mine in 8 months of use, including running games like Crysis in Windows. Since I got my Mac Pro last August, I assume that I received the so-called "fixed" version of the X1900XT. One thing I have done to help the overheating situation is clean the intake fins and fan on the card's cooling system periodically. Of course, the card will probably go south now that I have said it is working fine! Why did you have to get the splitter and extender?
Can you explain the reasons and the link for fry's to order?
I am quite interestd in 9800x myself and using macpro as Vista Premium only box.
Thanks.
Has anyone tried a 3850 or 3870x2 under windows with the Pro yet? Not looking for "it won't work in OSX", just looking for winders feedback.
I ran a few experiments..............
Been using Vista 64 sp1(bootcamp) for some 3d apps that can't exist in OS X
I yanked my Vista drive and did a bootcamp install on another 250 gig drive with XP Pro 64(This way xp's bootloader wont mess up Vista's) then seated the drive again.
Anyway, so now I have a Quad (native) boot, no VM (Ubuntu shares the Vista partition quite happily) I ran a series of tests with Maxon's Cinebench 9.5 on my X1900. In speaking in OpenGL speed-up......XP 64 wins hands down
OS X10.5.2 receives a score of 4715 CB @ 8.83x
Vista Ult. 64 sp1 gets a slow 4539 CB @ 7.65x
XP Pro 64 sp2 gets a speed of 5500 CB @ 10.73x
Here is my experiment.......Going to grab Kalaway 10.5.1 and see if it will install in XP in VMware. I've researched many posts saying it is possible.
If this works, you could build your Mac Pro on the XP OS with your card of choice, and still have your Mac in a VM . Sound like a challenge. Not the best solution, but hey, if you need the gpu power for apps, or games.....It just may be a solution.
Been using Vista 64 sp1(bootcamp) for some 3d apps that can't exist in OS X
I yanked my Vista drive and did a bootcamp install on another 250 gig drive with XP Pro 64(This way xp's bootloader wont mess up Vista's) then seated the drive again.
Anyway, so now I have a Quad (native) boot, no VM (Ubuntu shares the Vista partition quite happily) I ran a series of tests with Maxon's Cinebench 9.5 on my X1900. In speaking in OpenGL speed-up......XP 64 wins hands down
OS X10.5.2 receives a score of 4715 CB @ 8.83x
Vista Ult. 64 sp1 gets a slow 4539 CB @ 7.65x
XP Pro 64 sp2 gets a speed of 5500 CB @ 10.73x
Here is my experiment.......Going to grab Kalaway 10.5.1 and see if it will install in XP in VMware. I've researched many posts saying it is possible.
If this works, you could build your Mac Pro on the XP OS with your card of choice, and still have your Mac in a VM . Sound like a challenge. Not the best solution, but hey, if you need the gpu power for apps, or games.....It just may be a solution.
What are you talking about?? If it were say the utmost professional level, wouldnt they use the Nvidia Quadro FX card that bests all the other GPU that Apple offers (nvidia 8800gt,ATI X1900)??
So in the end, I wouldnt say professionals are disappointed with Apple in not providing a newer card, which the Nvidia Quadro FX can work on 06' Mac Pros or the 08' Mac Pros. All the people that are complaining are Prosumer/consumer of hobbiest not professionals that are wanting a cheaper solution for better gaming, myself included.
As others also stated that programs such as CS3 and other pro apps are not dependant on gpu and is on cpu so that would mean you would likely to upgrade to the faster processors in order to get an overall project done quicker. So the ability to upgrade your gpu comes as you upgrade your cpu anyway.
To me, since Apple has limited each mac pro to its mid level gpu card such as the ATI X1900 to the 06' Mac Pro and the 08' Mac Pro to the Nvidia 8800gt (well I guess backward compatible with the ATI X1900 which wouldnt really make any difference since its a given that people would get the nvidia 8800gt instead of the x1900 anyways) is that Apple is concentrating on the professional level use of the Mac Pro, rather than to the gaming/prosumer level.
But I do agree that Apple should let all the gpu cards work on the Mac Pros just so to make everyone happy.
Nope. The vast majority of professionals work in pretty small studios (just a handful of people), or freelance, and simply cannot justify an extra $2,000 per machine for a marginal improvement in performance. You seem to think that the word "professional" is a synonym for "more money than sense". Even with the potential to write it off as a tax loss, this doesn't always mean that an extra $10,000 added to the cost of upgrading say 5 workstations for a small studio is going to be immediately available when it's needed. Businesses stay alive because they're as, if not more, price-conscious than consumers. Just because one or two big companies might be able to throw money around like there's no tomorrow, doesn't mean the entire world operates this way.
I'm complaining. I'm a professional designer. So you're incorrect. With respect, you don't know the job of everyone in this thread so saying "all the people complaining" are not industry professionals is pretty presumptuous.
The Core Graphics Framework employs the GPU. Photoshop Extended, After Effects, Premiere all use the GPU so there's 3 CS3 apps right off the bat. Real time rendering in 3D apps uses the GPU. Would you like me to go on?
Well, I'm glad we agree on something.
... One thing I have done to help the overheating situation is clean the intake fins and fan on the card's cooling system periodically. Of course, the card will probably go south now that I have said it is working fine!
Keep your fingers crossed. I'm on my third one in less than two years. Can't believe how Apple is still selling such an outdated crappy card for $400. I think there are a few people in R&D who need to be fired.