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And you use a Mac for what reason????? Or do you? :rolleyes:

Touchy or too sensitive today are we? Maybe it's just a good question.

For the record I use a late 2008 MBP (2.4GHz 8GB, 750GB), a late 2009 mini (2.66GHz 4GB, 500GB) and a 2010 MP 3.2GHz quad, 24GB, 5 WD RE4 2TB). All three are running Lion while the MBP and the MP also have W7 Pro on a Bootcamp partition and on a separate HD respectively.

Why I use Mac;

While I prefer Windows' UI, its faster response and the backward compatibility there are several categories where Windows is inferior to Mac. UI and computer adjustments have traditionally been far easier (and more understandable) on a Mac. The (pre-Lion) Mac UI is better looking. Mac OS looks as if it was designed for people who appreciate beauty. Windows looks like it was designed for IT personnel.

My main reason to use a Mac is what's often referred to as the Mac software ecosystem. Microsoft hasn't yet figured out that "it's the software, stupid", not the OS that really counts. The combination of Mail, iCal, Contacts, iPhoto, iTunes, etc. is just unbeatable. The comparable Windows Live applications look and work oh so 1999. Beyond that there is a wealth of third party applications like RipIt, A Better Finder Rename and Carbon Copy Cloner that are unbeatable.

Hope that answers your question.
 
Snap desktops.
"maximize" button on the taskbar that expands to fill the window up to maximum desktop space available.

Windows Task bar preview with mouse over


Being able to use mulitple displays if i have something maximized / fullscreened on one desktop.
 
I'll give you that one. Probably the only real useful feature since that's the main one people are shaking pom poms at here.

Ok....we're good so far...

LOL, I'm surprised you wrote that one with a straight face. Useless feature. Surprised that people would bark at Mission Control when Windows has something far worse and completely stupid. I beg to differ that hardly anyone is shaking windows on their screen to get to the desktop. That's a super dumb feature in Windows 7 and it's more ridiculous than Windows Flip 3D.

I'm not sure what you're going on about? When I had my Windows 7 machine, Shake was one of the most useful things. When I had multiple windows open, especially when constantly switching from Photoshop to Illustrator, It was really nice when I had a billion windows open to easily get my focus on one specific window, then I can just CONTROL + ALT + TAB to easily pull up a menu, and click on which window I want. It's extremely useful.

One could argue that Open CL offers better, depends on the user and the applications in question so that's subjective.

They're equivalent with both having benefits over the other, so that's probably not the best example to pick. a

Joos24:14101665 said:
Sorry but Multi-touch what?? If you're referring to those touchscreen PC's that are overstocked and undersold then that's quite a loser "feature". And why doesn't Multitouch Trackpad count? Are you trying to work the argument so Windows 7 wins and Lion loses? Sorry but Multi-touch trackpad in Snow Leopard and Lion are quite celebrated and no other company offers such a complete touch trackpad yet. Probably because Windows 7 doesn't support it. I'm sure you can enjoy some multitouch trackpad features when you navigate through that awesome Metro UI in the upcoming W8.

Computers like the HP Touchsmart or Dell Inspiron One may not be selling well, The Lenovo ThinkPad X220 Convertible Notebook is extremely popular in the education business. The multi-touch builds on the very well worked out using a pen (Coming from a background of using both Pen tablets and multitouch tablets, I find a pen + multitouch combination is AMAZING to use, and it works great in Windows 7). I say the multi-touch trackpad doesn't count as having multi-touch features in Mac OS X. Windows 7 does support such devices. Logitech sells a multi-touch trackpad and a keyboard with a trackpad built in designed for Windows 7, as well as the Microsoft Touch Mouse (which in my opinion having used the Magic Mouse and Touch Mouse, the Touch Mouse feels more natural, as well as being true two button).

???? I have no idea what you're talking about. Please elaborate.

Better media (audio/video/imagery) file format support out-of-the-box.

Oh that complicated set up for most users? Uh...no.

Complicated? It was really easy to set up for my mom and I...

Again, you're posting another lesser known feature. I could call out a number of things in OS X you may have never heard of. If you're going to post a lesser known feature at least post what it does.

Device Stage to my understanding was pretty obvious. You had to use it to add a printer or any device....It was an upgraded much more friendly and simple to use/monitor device manager...

There's nothing I need to face, I'm perfectly happy with Mac OS X Lion and I don't need or want Windows. Sorry but until Windows has SPACES, STACKS and a way to manage windows such as Mission Control I don't see any real productivity innovations. It's YOU and some others here that need to face reality, if Windows offers so much for you then a Mac isn't for you. You should be running a Windows system PC full time. Is there some reason why you have a Mac? If you don't have a Mac then is there some reason you're on this forum?

Maybe I wanted a Mac because I wanted one? I'm Pro-Mac AND Pro-Windows. YES! It's possible! Shocker, right? :eek:

It's really...I can't really think of the word...when people just assume that if you're a fan of one OS or features from one OS that isn't in your preferred OS, they're not allowed to like or use another OS and also be a fan of it.
 
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Snap desktops.
"maximize" button on the taskbar that expands to fill the window up to maximum desktop space available.




Being able to use mulitple displays if i have something maximized / fullscreened on one desktop.

BetterSnapTool will do all that. it's not exactly "full screen", but close enough for me.
 
I'm SO sorry that I happen to have both like Mac OS X and Windows! I'm sorry if you didn't realize it was possible.


I feel ya. i dont understand this logic that if you like X feature from one OS, you must clearly have no use for another OS.

I've used enough OS's. OSx, Windows (any flavour), few different linuxes, heck, I've used BEos and OS/2 Warp in my time.
There are things from All different OS's that i would like to see no matter what platform i use.

I loved BEOs' windowshade mode (cdouble click the header of the window, and it folds up into itself)

I Love OSx's gestures and simple ease of navigation

I love windows task bar and start menu combination

I love Linux's ... well ok, I preffer the server aspects of linux, not os much their GUI's.

Why should I, because i like features from Different OS's be told "get off our OS if you like a feature from another one better".
 
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:confused:

Of course Apple did.

Preview, Pages, Numbers, Keynote… all the Apple applications have dropped Save As and implemented Duplicate.

So yes. Apple is responsible for this new inconvenient two-step.

**** me if I know why they did.

The solution for the iWork Save As issue is Office for Mac 2011. While not quite as nice to use under Mac OS as under Windows (End key, etc) Excel and Word work great and are, let's face it, the standard of the world.

iWork has a great simplicity and ease of use but I eventually needed more functionality. The Save As issue killed it for good.
 
Whether it's called "Safe as" or "Duplicate" doesn't really make a difference, does it?

MS Office seems more powerful than iWork (which actually stopped existing) at this point. I'm using keynote, but pages was always confusing to me, MS Word is more accessible to me. I wonder what Keynote 2012 will bring to the table, buy I'm already considering giving PowerPoint a try.
 
Duplicate is Not the same as "Save As". Here's why. Open a file in an application that uses versions. Press Duplicate. Did it save anything?.

Why yes it did. You now have 2 identical POT snapshots in Versions of the same document.

In order to save something you need to chose another menu option that isn't duplicate. Therefore, Duplicate isn't "Save As". It is a part of a process that (badly) approximates a simpler methodology that Save As achieved. Seriously, I'm embarrassed at the state of denial you seem to be in on this. Like someone swearing black is white.

And I'm embarassed at how much importance you're granting to the procedure rather than the result.

Save As.
Duplicate. Close.
Quit App. Copy. Paste. Rename. Open new document.
Quit App. Terminal. cp -p document newdocument. Open new document.

All ways to achieve the same result.

However, Versions brings other benefits Save/Save As couldn't, such as POT snapshots. Did you really think of doing a Save As when you made that change ? What if you want to revert to an earlier version to start a new branch ? Do you have that earlier version still somewhere ?

Snapshotting is just that great, be it your NAS snapshotting, ZFS snapshotting, LVM snapshotting or now this document level snapshotting called Versions.

You're too focused on how to do it and the loss of your 1 way. You're not focused enough on the result, which in the end is all that matters to me.

Hate? Really? For what purpose?

If you're really interested, PM me and we'll discuss it. It's quite off-topic and has nothing to do with technical features of OSes.



The things that you mention (with the exception of Versions) are all Optional. Again.....This is my problem with Versions. If I had the option to use the initial file management paradigm that has served me well for decades in any application in Lion, I would not be typing these words right now.

Versions is an API. The option is not yours, it's your software vendors'. Ask them to provide either a Versions-less version of their software or to simply Add "Save As" to their File menu. Feedback is important. If there's really enough of you out there that dearly miss the "Save As" method (instead of the resulting 2 documents at the same POT), then the software vendor might reimplement it.



I earn my living from my computers, so there is an investment and ongoing concern that the OS environment in which I work continues to facilitate earning that living.

Really ? What a coincidence, so do I! However, having been "in the biz" for so long, there's 2 things I learned :

- These are machines, don't become emotionally involved.
- Learn to adapt. It'll save you a lot of grief. Think of results rather than methods. Methods come and go, but as long as the results are the same, adapt to the new methods. While they may look awkward at first, there's probably quite a few Pros that came with them.

You and I would not be having this conversation had you not entirely incorrectly stated that Duplicate is the same as Save As when clearly it isn't.....

Again, you're focused on the method, I'm focused on the result. "Incorrect" is your subjective opinion, since you're not getting my point : The result is the same.

Now move along, you've been rehashing this stuff for 6 months. It's probably not doing any good for your personal stress levels.

----------

Geez there are too many. . .

#1 is to close the application with the red X, no menu, no CMD-Q, just one simple click.

What if I have 2 documents open ? Should the red X also close the application ? What if I close a document and want to open a new one ? Do I have to re-open the application, why not just go File -> New ?

No media eject error message

A check box "Do not warn me again" ? Because some people like the OS telling that there's potential for data loss (did the FS driver finish flushing all the writes to the device before you pulled it out ?).

PrintScreen button

What's wrong with CMD-ALT-3, CMD-ALT-4 and others ? Heck I can never remember the key bindings in Windows, is it alt-printscreen or just print-screen. Not to mention using MSPaint to paste the result whereas OS X simply saves it directly to the desktop.


CTRL-E, CTRL-A. I like these because they're the same key bindings that Bash uses and they are much more efficient since I can use these without my hands leaving the normal typing position. Makes it much faster.

Select and deselect front application with a click in the Taskbar

What for ? OS X implements lazy focus unlike Windows, no need to "deselect" the front app.

CTRL key is much easier to use than CMD

Really, I always end up using CMD even when I'm stuck on my work PC.
 
Why yes it did. You now have 2 identical POT snapshots in Versions of the same document.

Why, no it didn't. It merely duplicated the document without saving anything. Nothing is saved until the application is quit. Even then, it is a kind of pseudo save since until you decide to save the document via the file menu, where exactly has Lion put it when you quit?

For example:

Open a new blank document in Pages.
Type something.
Save it on the desktop.
Duplicate the document
Type something extra in the duplicated document
quit pages.

Result? Pages quits without telling you you're about to lose your duplicate because it appears again once you open pages.

OK, so far so...Well, whatever. Because if you open pages again and try and close the duplicated document without attempting a save, pages asks if you want to save the changes you made to the duplicated document. Say yes and you're prompted with a file dialog box asking where to save it.....Say no and the duplicate is gone forever. Both options make it clear that the document has not been saved in any way other than a temporary state invoked by closing the application, not by duplicating the document.

At what point did selecting duplicate save anything???????



And I'm embarassed at how much importance you're granting to the procedure rather than the result

Save As.
Duplicate. Close.
Quit App. Copy. Paste. Rename. Open new document.
Quit App. Terminal. cp -p document newdocument. Open new document.

Except that we've just established that it was the act of choosing close that saved anything at all, and even then, this is only a temporary save of the document until it is opened again with the same application. The second line should correctly read:

Duplicate. Save. Close.

Just try it if you don't believe me. Or even do this:

Duplicate a document.
Add something to it.
Close the document (not the application).
Say no when Lion asks if you want to save the document (this is a big clue as to whether or not Duplicate saves anything at all).

So now where is the document you duplicated and made a change to?? According to you, it should be somewhere because according to you Duplicate saves....So tell me where it is? Can you even tell me where the duplicated document was saved before a change was even made to it? Of course you can't because it wasn't saved anywhere.



However, Versions brings other benefits Save/Save As couldn't, such as POT snapshots.

A search on Apple.com yields exactly zero results on the term "pot snapshots" or "POT snapshots". Seems like you're inventing features for Apple now.....

Did you really think of doing a Save As when you made that change ?

Yes! And if I didn't, I will live with the consequences because when, where and what I call my saved files is my responsibility. I delight in it.

What if you want to revert to an earlier version to start a new branch ?

Why, I would revert to a previous version that I Saved As a previous version.

Do you have that earlier version still somewhere ?

Yes! Refer to the above mentioned Previous version that I saved because that is the purpose of "Save As".


You're too focused on how to do it and the loss of your 1 way. You're not focused enough on the result, which in the end is all that matters to me.


No, I'm focused on keeping the OS the hell out of my way and allowing me to work how I want to......I'm the customer here and after 30 years of programming, design, animation and music production using computers, I think I have the authority, and frankly the god given right, to demand it.



If you're really interested, PM me and we'll discuss it. It's quite off-topic and has nothing to do with technical features of OSes.

Thanks but I'll pass.



Versions is an API. The option is not yours, it's your software vendors'. Ask them to provide either a Versions-less version of their software or to simply Add "Save As" to their File menu. Feedback is important. If there's really enough of you out there that dearly miss the "Save As" method (instead of the resulting 2 documents at the same POT), then the software vendor might reimplement it.

Or....Just don't boot to Lion, or even OS X if this flawed system isn't fixed by the time Snow Leopard becomes artificially obsolete or I need to buy a new computer.


Really ? What a coincidence, so do I! However, having been "in the biz" for so long, there's 2 things I learned :

I did you the favour of not including the patronising tosh.

Again, you're focused on the method, I'm focused on the result. "Incorrect" is your subjective opinion, since you're not getting my point : The result is the same.

No, I'm focused on your untrue assertion that Duplicate = Save As. Duplicate + Save is a poor imitation of Save As that requires an extra step and leaves you with two identical documents open. I still fail to see how this is more efficient, simpler, or better in any way whatsoever.

Now move along, you've been rehashing this stuff for 6 months.

I'm sure there's nothing you'd like more in order to save your blushes, but we both know that's not going to happen.


It's probably not doing any good for your personal stress levels.

I appreciate your concern, but I'm just fine thanks.
 
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No, I'm focused on your untrue assertion that Duplicate = Save As. Duplicate + Save is a poor imitation of Save As that requires an extra step and leaves you with two identical documents open. I still fail to see how this is more efficient, simpler, or better in any way whatsoever.

Somebody in charge of the UI thought it would be a good idea. I must say I agree that it's counter intuitive to anybody that has used a computer before.

I also hate what they've done to Finder by default. All My Files??? Come on. Directories and files is not a concept that is hard to understand for people and there is no reason to abstract it any further. Not like this anyway.

Fine, hide the files you don't want people to see or manipulate. Windows does the same thing, but don't ruin the file manager with the default settings.
 
A search on Apple.com yields exactly zero results on the term "pot snapshots" or "POT snapshots". Seems like you're inventing features for Apple now.....

Getting kind of tired of your whole ignoring "the result is the same" and your constant focus on your "1 and only method!" that is Save As. Duplicate is the same, that it does require extra steps is what it is. Learn to adapt or forever be left behind (or switch to an OS that doesn't have Versions).

No, I'll reply to this 1 point. You say you're a programmer right ? You searched for POT Snapshots and found nothing ?

Point In Time Snapshots. That's what Versions is. Apple doesn't call it Point in Time Snapshots, so don't search their site for it, but the fact remains : That's what the versions API is. It's a snapshot that is dated, thus has a point in the flow of time, contrary to a revision based snapshot, which is a snapshot taken on a change.

You do understand the difference right ? Anyway, Duplicate, Save, Close, whatever. Same result. 2 Point in Time identical documents that can now be branched in 2 directions. Hit Save As/Duplicate-Save-Close again and you've now got 3.

Again, Versions brings a different working method (that you might or might not like, besides the point), the same results and the added benefits of automated Point In Time snapshotting which was entirely a manual before with Save As (how many times did you Save As per day vs just Save ? With Versions, every Save is a Save As and the system even throws in a few itself to boot).

Conversation getting tiring, we'll never agree. You're focused on your lost method, I'm glad with the result, no matter how much I need to "re-learn" because vendors don't implement the old way once they moved to the new. Frankly, it's been one big non-issue for me as I've yet to even run into software that implements Versions.

I'll take my own advice, I'll move on. Much easier to simply move the people that are still whining 6 months later to the ignore list then read again their drivel about how they don't like Lion and can't seem to grasp that different doesn't mean bad, just different.
 
Somebody in charge of the UI thought it would be a good idea. I must say I agree that it's counter intuitive to anybody that has used a computer before.

I wonder what is behind this change. Maybe some iCloud thing?

I have to say, "save as" did not always work for me as intended. Sometimes I edit a file (lets call it myfile) and I want to save a snapshot of it before I potentially mess it up. I hit "save as" and save it as myfile_save. What happens then is that this new file becomes the active file in my editor - I have to close it and reopen myfile to continue working on it.
 
I wonder what is behind this change. Maybe some iCloud thing?

I have to say, "save as" did not always work for me as intended. Sometimes I edit a file (lets call it myfile) and I want to save a snapshot of it before I potentially mess it up. I hit "save as" and save it as myfile_save. What happens then is that this new file becomes the active file in my editor - I have to close it and reopen myfile to continue working on it.

When you do a save as the new file becomes the active file. That sounds like standard functionality across Windows and OSX or am I too tired?
 
When you do a save as the new file becomes the active file. That sounds like standard functionality across Windows and OSX or am I too tired?

Yes, thats standard I think even in stuff like emacs and vim. I'm just saying that sometimes I would have wished for a different behavior. Something like the Xcode "save snapshot" function. Duplicate seems to come closer to this.
 
Duplicate = "Creates a copy of a document and places it next to the original, so you can start fresh using the original as a template." -Apple

Save As = save the current state of the document with a new name and location -- but here there are at least three possible motivations: The user wants to make a new "version" of the current file, The user wants to create a "checkpoint" of the current file, The user wants to create an entirely new file, using the existing file as a "template" or base.


"Duplicate" is Apple's customized version of "Save as", but at the core, they are the same thing.
 
Give me a "save as" option and don't make me autosave. I want to save when I want to, not when Apple wants to
 
Let's see if I can stir up the pot even more. :)

"Rename" as a right-click option. Whether it's the "click" then press "enter" or "click-wait-and-click-again", they both feel cumbersome. Microsoft at least has done this right.
 
Let's see if I can stir up the pot even more. :)

"Rename" as a right-click option. Whether it's the "click" then press "enter" or "click-wait-and-click-again", they both feel cumbersome. Microsoft at least has done this right.

You don't know Windows as well as you think you do. The Rename option in the contextual menu might be the only thing they got right. LOL. Sorry but file renaming is king in OS X and it sucks royally in Windows. Go right ahead and vote my post down if you will but I'm not wrong about this one.

File renaming has great limitations in Windows. , especially anything with punctuations outside of a period or exclamation point just won't happen in Windows. On Mac OS since day one of any version files names with punctuations and almost any symbol can be within file name. Windows pitches a hissy fit it you even try to add most punctuations within the same name, it's limited to only a few.
Go ahead and try to add forward slash, question mark. asterisk, colon, < or> symbol or quotations when renaming a file in Windows 7, it won't work, but it does on Mac OS X Lion. :D

Being easier to right-click in the contextual menu is really nonsense if I can't rename the file the way I want it.
 
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You don't know Windows as well as you think you do. The Rename option in the contextual menu might be the only thing they got right. LOL. Sorry but file renaming is king in OS X and it sucks royally in Windows. Go right ahead and vote my post down if you will but I'm not wrong about this one.

File renaming has great limitations in Windows. , especially anything with punctuations outside of a period or exclamation point just won't happen in Windows. On Mac OS since day one of any version files names with punctuations and almost any symbol can be within file name. Windows pitches a hissy fit it you even try to add punctuations and spaces within the same name.
Go ahead and try to add forward slash or question mark when renaming a file in Windows 7, it won't work. :D
You're talking HFS vs NTFS. He is talking about the UI aspects of renaming. The two things are related, but you have missed the point.
 
You're talking HFS vs NTFS. He is talking about the UI aspects of renaming. The two things are related, but you have missed the point.

Nice try, but you failed here. He's talking about ease of use when renaming files such as right-clicking to activate the option. He says Windows does that better.....BIG WOW.... My counterpoint was spot on, Mac OS X Lion is much better when it comes to file renaming. :p
 
Nice try, but you failed here. He's talking about ease of use when renaming files such as right-clicking to activate the option. He says Windows does that better.....BIG WOW.... My counterpoint was spot on, Mac OS X Lion is much better when it comes to file renaming. :p

Again, you're still talking about two different things. Your counterpoint has very little to do with his point. You even agreed to that in your first sentence and then it's slam dunk for you? Fabulous logic.

I don't have the time for this high school animosity.
 
File renaming has great limitations in Windows. , especially anything with punctuations outside of a period or exclamation point just won't happen in Windows. On Mac OS since day one of any version files names with punctuations and almost any symbol can be within file name. Windows pitches a hissy fit it you even try to add most punctuations within the same name, it's limited to only a few.
Go ahead and try to add forward slash, question mark. asterisk, colon, < or> symbol or quotations when renaming a file in Windows 7, it won't work, but it does on Mac OS X Lion. :D

Being easier to right-click in the contextual menu is really nonsense if I can't rename the file the way I want it.

It is true that because of NTFS' limitations you cannot use certain characters in a file name but how is that "easier" It limit a user's ability to make a descriptive file name but it does not effect effort. FWIW, windows offers more flexible, easier to use mechanisms to actually invoke the renaming once you determine the file name you wish to change too.
 
Look, Finder sucks as a file manager, we know. I bet Apple knows too, since I think it was basically their goal when making it : Make it as simple as possible. The disadvantage of such a goal is that they lost all flexibility.

Windows Explorer however sucks as much. I think its contextual menu is over-bloated with options, it changes based on context and frankly, after close to 20 years of using Windows (either at home or at work), I still have to read through the options instead of instinctively knowing where they are located in the menu.

If you ask me, File management is done right by the command line. Fastest, most efficient method to do it. Of course, I was raised on DOS and then Unix shells.
 
I think renaming is actually pretty efficient in OS X's Finder. What's easier than pressing Enter? Especially if you have to go through a list of files. Unless the task can be automated or you're a command line guru, I don't see how Apple could improve it by much.





By the way, do you really have to press F2 on Windows to rename? :confused:
 
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