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Just out of curiosity, and don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering why you need the expandability? What can it do that an iMac can't, that you actually will do?

jW

What it can do is let me add features down the road I may or may not know I'll need at the time. I'll give two examples. Keep in mind recently I upgraded a PowerMac and bought a new PC in November, which I did assemble myself using what I wanted to put in it. I'm not saying other people have to put their own computers together, but it's nice to be able to get a computer with the features you actually WANT as opposed to one with features someone else has decided they want to sell you.

I had a dual 533 G4 Digital Audio PowerMac. I was looking for 6+ month at buying a new Intel Mac. The problem was that no iMac at the time had a decent video card (they were all laptop cards) and so that meant I had to look at MacPros. Already, I went from the $1200-1800 range to the $2400-$3000+ range JUST because I needed a better video card than what the iMac offered. Now you can view this as an expansion need or simply a case of the iMac not offering WHAT I needed at a REASONABLE price. Keep in mind I was willing to pay more for a Mac than a PC because I prefer the OS. What do I use/need them for? First of all, I've had it with Microsoft and I do not want to go to Vista. I do not like Vista. XP is "OK" but MacOSX is better. So part of it is not so much a need for Mac software but a desire to get away from Microsoft. But that does not change WHAT I do on a computer.

On the Mac side, I was planning to use a Mac to power a whole house audio system in the background (basically have iTunes serve to AppleTV and Airport Express units around the house as needed). At some point, I also plant to get Logic Pro to start using with my Roland synth and Fender guitar rigs to record music, but that will probably wait for a laptop purchase. Other applications are available for the Mac that I use all the time regardless (e.g. Firefox, Thunderbird, Messengers, Photoshop, etc.) so that is/was a matter of getting the Mac versions at whatever point along the way for that new purchase.

On the PC side of things (again, I was planning on using BootCamp and either Parallels or Fusion to integrate whatever I needed), I make pinball games as a side hobby and thing (The Ultrapin commercial platform uses several of my table conversions) so I need XP for some time to come as a development platform (the sofware is only available for Windows). I also do occasionally play PC games and hence I need a quality graphics card. I do occasional word processing, etc. and I do have the software for XP, so clearly it would save me money in the short term to be able to continue to use legacy Windows software and slowly replace it with Mac equivalents over time.

What I WANTED to do was buy ONE Mac that woud fit all my needs and ween off Windows software. What I was forced to do was buy a PC because no Mac out there including the MacPro at the time fit my needs (it was pretty darn sad that a $2400+ computer had an out-of-date poor graphics card at the time). For $800, I was able to put together a PC that met my needs on the PC side of things (AMD 5600+, 2Gigs of 800MHz low latency ram, NVidia 7900GS, Sata 500Gig drives, 6.1 sound, Gigabit Ethernet, 20x DVD-RW drive, etc.) My PowerMac was more than a little long in the tooth, but I still needed a solution for my whole house audio system (true, iTunes does run on Windows, but it sucks compared to the Mac version in some respects and Windows is not a stable environment to leave running 24/7). So instead of buying a new Mac, I upgraded the old one to a 1.8GHz 7448, 1.5 Gigs of ram, USB 2.0 PCI card, Sata PCI card with two 500 Gig drives, an 18x DVD-RW 'super' drive and an internal USB 2.0/Firewire hub replacing the old Jaz drive, all for less than the cheapest iMac out there. It works great for my whole house audio system (which has been up and running for some time now) and as an Internet browsing and secure banking system. And I didn't have to clutter up my desk with all kinds of external hard drives, etc. that would have been required with an iMac to achieve the same results. Is the CPU as fast? No. Does it need to be? No.

So as you can see, an iMac would not have met my PC needs (slow graphics card) and even the new $2200 one with a good graphics card is well...$2200! There should be something comparable on the Mac side in hte $800-1400 range and there isn't, which is why some of us that WANT tower/expansion capability (be it for neatness on desk or upgradeable graphics in a market where Apple is slow to come up with the latest GPUs), we have no options but a $2400+ Mac Pro, which is well, ridiculously overpriced and in some respects overpowered for consumer use. Apple isn't getting a cannibalized sale situation with me, it's getting a LOST SALE because some of us aren't willing to pay $2400 these days for a desktop tower. And we all do NOT go running to the iMac line because for some of us, it's not a good fit. I've got multiple large monitors already. I prefer CRT for pinball, for example because even the newest LCDs are slow to draw really fast moving objects (i.e. you get ball blur). An iMac gives me a monitor I don't want and makes me buy other features on a monitor-size basis and has NO storage expansion internally, which means that beautiful looking clean desk you get with a stock model disappears when you start stacking up external boxes on top and power bricks underneath. That is not acceptable to me.

Maybe I'm not a 'typical' Mac user. I do see myself as largely a typical PC user, though, although with perhaps a larger knowledge base than the average user as I'm in engineering work wise and I know Linux, etc. as well and run it as a 2nd OS on the new PC. The question for users like me that WANT to use MacOSX and get away from the MESS that is Vista and Microsoft is why can't I get the hardware I *NEED* with that OS instead of someone like Steve Jobs telling me what hardware he wants to sell me??? The operating system doesn't care what hardware I'm using and yet the whole problem with Apple today for potential PC switchers is finding the right hardware. To some out there, there's no issue. iMacs are great for them. But some of us NEED or WANT towers for the various reasons above (even if you never upgrade them, you STILL get to pick what goes into them initially and that is NOT true with iMacs to a large degree). So to us, there's this GIANT GLARING HOLE in the Mac lineup that is NOT served by the MacPro. I don't need the fastest processor in the world (the 5600+ I got is fine for pinball game development and light office work). I DO need a reasonably fast GPU (even the 7900GS DirectX 9 only GPU I ended up with can run any current game out there, which cannot be said for all the but the $2200 custom option iMac).

So no offense to the countless Mac users out there that 'don't get' why some people would want anything other than an iMac or a MacPro, but quite frankly, I think you guys aren't imagining a very big world out there. Maybe the iMac and MacPro (along with the various Mac laptops) have fit the 6% Mac market share just fine in the past and even the current users are happy because they fit that niche. But 6% isn't even CLOSE to 100% and that means there are a LOT of PC users out there that buy towers and mini-towers and don't pay $2400 for them and are used to being able to pick out what they WANT instead of being told what they can buy. If Apple ever wants to get out of this less than 10% mode, they need to stop thinking about the old style "Let's milk the Mac community for every cent we can get" and start thinking about the bigger overall picture of a market that is currently RIPE for the picking. Microsoft has made a MAJOR blunder with Vista. People hate it. They're looking for alternatives and Microsoft is trying to take XP away as an option in the near future. There is NO BETTER TIME than the present for Apple to stop ignoring the traditional mid-range PC market and start catering to a whole new market share. Those aren't cannibalized sales of Mac Pros! They're BRAND NEW USERS waiting to convert! Some will like iMacs. Most will wonder why they can't get a small tower with what they WANT in it.

To me, the whole concept of the iMac is flawed in the sense that if the default package doesn't fit your needs (and increasingly with things like Time Machine that BEG for a 2nd drive, it seems less and less so), you have to go to EXTERNAL boxes and that completely defeats the point of a neat box-less package in a monitor chassis that the iMac is designed to be. If Steve weren't so obsessed with 'thin' then he could make the thing a little thicker and have room for a 2nd internal drive and that would alleviate one of the two major drawbacks. Similarly, a larger case could allow non-laptop parts to be used and it could be a TRUE desktop, not a laptop-inside-a-monitor(tm).

But what frustrates some of us out here is that when we point these things out, we get labeled as a few renegades or told "Apple knows best" etc. etc. Yet Apple for all its financial success lately, is STILL less than 7% of the market share. If the courts ever took away their "tying" of the OS to ONLY their hardware (and it seems this Psystar thing could eventually be the catalyst), they would HAVE to start looking to larger market share instead of just squeezing the grapevine for all its worth and making their offerings compared to Dell for certain markets look like a joke ($2200+ just to play a modern 3D game for example? Get real. That's $800 on a Dell). But Mac users don't play games!!! Or they have an Xbox or whatever. That's not a REASON. That's an EXCUSE. IF the Mac had reasonable GPU hardware (ironic for a traditionally 'graphic' orientated computer, IMO), it MIGHT then HAVE a gaming market for it. Chicken meet stubborn egg!

Instead of all the fanboy excuses I read every day on here, why can't some of these people see that a BETTER Mac = a better experience for all in the long run? Apple needs to stop artificially trying to push people to higher margin computers, which may work for a small but rabid and loyal computing base that can afford it; the traditional Mac "yuppee" of the '90s, but it doesn't work for the general PC computing population. Apple needs to decide if it wants to be a minor player forever or whether it wants to make a move towards displacing Microsoft. If they want the latter, the time is ripe. If they want the former, I guess I'm better off waiting for Windows7 or whatever to correct Vistas mistakes and hold onto XP in the mean time and leave my Mac for niche uses like the whole house audio server. I want a general computing solution with MacOSX, not just a limited use box that happens to be stable (that sounds more like Linux at the moment than Mac to me anyway).
 
But can it run Crysis? You know... at all. That's a modern game. $800 barely covers a decent (by your standards) PSU and GPU.

Who gives a crap about Crysis? It's a) not available on the Mac and b) by far the most extreme test of a graphics card out there. CoD4, Quake Wars, and UT3 are will will be soon and unlike times in the past (PPC days included) the majority of machines sold cannot take advantage.
 
Instead of all the fanboy excuses I read every day on here, why can't some of these people see that a BETTER Mac = a better experience for all in the long run? Apple needs to stop artificially trying to push people to higher margin computers, which may work for a small but rabid and loyal computing base that can afford it; the traditional Mac "yuppee" of the '90s, but it doesn't work for the general PC computing population..

As one of those 90s mac yuppies, its the ones who joined in the 2000s that you have to worry about. We actually used the think part of Think Different. The new ones adhere to different and pretty much follow without question. The rest of it, I can't find much fault in.
 
As one of those 90s mac yuppies, its the ones who joined in the 2000s that you have to worry about. We actually used the think part of Think Different. The new ones adhere to different and pretty much follow without question. The rest of it, I can't find much fault in.

IAWTP.
Some of the newer cult members are scary, insisting that there is something wrong with wanting something so that is so easily within the window of feasibility.

30+ years ago it wasn't just the suits at Xerox that missed the boat. Some of the people working under Bob Taylor openly sneered at hobbyists such as Gates and Allen, Jobs and Woz. After all PARC made serious computers, not toys from common parts.

JMHO.
 
But can it run Crysis? You know... at all. That's a modern game. $800 barely covers a decent (by your standards) PSU and GPU.

I haven't tried Crysis so I can't comment to that effect. (I've already got 3 other FPS shooters waiting to play after I finish the RPG games I've started). What I can say is that I mentioned an $800-1400 price range that Apple should be aiming for a basic gaming compatible Mac that doesn't need the "Pro" parts of the MacPro (i.e. you don't need 4-8 CPUs today to play games; in fact, they're wasted on almost all of them).

So, even if you don't like the 'midrange' system I put together for my uses, $1400 represents an extra $600 to spend on hardware. That'd buy a faster Intel CPU and a high-end graphics card (once you subtract the rebated price of $140 I spent on the then $190 Nvidia 7900GS I got last year) so say an extra $300 for a CPU and an extra $540 for a SLI style card and yes, I think you could run Crysis with little trouble. Meanwhile even my lowly 7900GS and 5600+ AMD fits the minimum spec sheet on every game at the local Best Buy. I've been playing Test Drive Unlimited with a G25 steering wheel setup on the 2nd head of my 7900GS (so I can leave the driving rig set up all the time) and it runs just fine. The game is what? A year old? My hardware is about half a year old. In other words, I'm not worried about one inefficently coded game out there when everything else runs fine and most games from the next two years will run OK, even if I have to use reduced resolutions or graphics settings. As I said, I'm using 20" CRT monitors for most games (I use a 24" LCD for driving games, though). 1024x768 and 1280x1024 run and look just fine. Unlike LCDs which require native resolutions to look their sharpest, CRTS can use any resolution to full effect. And believe me, Half Life 2 doesn't look miles better at 1920x1080 than 1280x1024. But the GPU power needed is a LOT more.

Of course, an iMac requires you use the monitor it came with or run two monitors. It's one of the reasons I don't like iMacs. You can get a brand new 20" CRT for $200 (I got a used one for my PowerMac at a computer show last year for $30 that works just fine; I'm using it right now). Or you can pay $600-800 for a 24" Wide-screen LCD with similar 4:3 screen real estate. To me, CRTs aren't dead just because Steve says so. Downstairs, I use a 720P LCD projector with a 93" screen. I'm hoping Apple will adopt the new 98xx series of mobile chips for the MBP sooner rather than later as it could make easy transportable gaming a reality for a Mac/Win laptop on my home theater system without needing a dedicated tower rig. I could get a PS3 and probably will for Blu-ray (I currently use AppleTV 720P HD for rentals and cable HD with a DVR for TV shows), but the PS3 game offerings still suck.
 
But what frustrates some of us out here is that when we point these things out, we get labeled as a few renegades or told "Apple knows best" etc. etc. Yet Apple for all its financial success lately, is STILL less than 7% of the market share.
What wigs me out are the folks that write off market share as totally irrelevant - they conveniently redefine "success" to not include that particular metric. They either don't realize or refuse to realize that market share is critically important to the strength of a platform, because it dictates how third-party developers prioritize for it - assuming they choose to write for it at all. And contrary to what some people within their own bubble-universes believe, third parties and their AAA-list productivity titles (Office, Creative Suite, Maya, etc.) are everything; the Mac could not survive on Apple's software alone, slick as it may be. Apple's own poster, created during a time when the open-as-hell Apple ][ was in full swing (and financing a few famous flops with its revenue), acknowledges this basic fact. Market share is why there's a release gap, sometimes months or years long, between Windows and OS X versions of the same software. Market share is why people are constantly complaining about feature disparity between the two. Market share is why you sometimes see rumors of companies cancelling OS X versions (there's a constant anxiety about Microsoft killing off Mac Office), because underneath all the bluster and the marketing-speak, people know that Windows dominates, that a company could kill off an OS X version of its product and continue unabated.

The feature disparity is an important point, and ties into our discussion of hardware. Some insist that what we get from Apple is either good enough, or adequately compensated for by other companies. When did "good enough" become the standard by which the Mac is judged? Macs are supposed to be leading-edge - shouldn't we be constantly making sure there's actual evidence of that, instead of just assuming its truth? Isn't that what true supporters of a platform - of anything - do? Keep their common core, in this case a company, on its toes? Be honest, brutally honest, about perceived deficiencies in current offerings?

The biggest defense, by far, that I see of the Mac lineup is "That's just what Apple does!" So much of the tortured reasoning that I see displayed in xMac threads boils down to that statement. It often comes after other defenses have been put forward and destroyed: "an xMac would ruin the elegance/simplicity of the Mac!" (Really? You don't think Apple is talented enough to maintain those qualities in a cheaper expandable computer? You think that little of them?) "It would cannibalize sales of the Mac Pro!" (The target markets for an xMac and the Mac Pro are vastly different, and even if they weren't, it's Apple cannibalizing Apple, trading higher per-unit revenue and lower sales for lower per-unit revenue and higher sales.) "It's a niche market - there aren't enough potential xMac users in the first place!" (A glance at the PC market is enough to prove otherwise: the vast majority of machines sold there are of the modular variety that Apple has spurned.)

"That's just what Apple does!" Fold arms, turn up nose, close eyes in defiance. That's not the end of the conversation, it's the beginning of the conversation.
 
Who gives a crap about Crysis?

Bingo. An $800 PC can't run the newest games. If you only have an $800 PC, you don't care about the newest games. Games are not important to Apple. If you want to game, do it in Boot Camp on an iMac. That's the most elegant solution.

The xMac won't happen until Steve changes ideology. Game companies have an incentive to create games for the Mac until the vaunted marketshare goes up.
 
The biggest defense, by far, that I see of the Mac lineup is "That's just what Apple does!"

...

"That's just what Apple does!" Fold arms, turn up nose, close eyes in defiance. That's not the end of the conversation, it's the beginning of the conversation.

I'd go along with that, but I'd probably put it more along the lines of "Steve Jobs knows best!" So often, we see rhetoric along the lines of, "When YOU become the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company, then maybe I'll listen to your comments about Apple," inferring of course, that the consumer couldn't POSSIBLY be right for wanting something OTHER than what Steve wants to sell you! I might as well just say, "You're just a Mac user. You don't know what you want because you're computer illiterate" and that would be true of a LOT of Mac users, but certainly not even close to all of them. Some of them rejoice in that kind of labeling because "The Mac just works!" Fair enough, but if Steve is only designing computers for the unwashed computer illiterate masses (admittedly in 2008, these figures are vastly smaller than in 1998 or 1988 when you were a GEEK if you used a computer; I know as I was labeled one and had my first computer in 1982) and for certain "professionals" then Steve is ignoring the 3rd most important computer market out there and that is general computing (i.e. consumers that aren't totally computer illiterate and like to ORDER their computers with custom specs or at least shop for a model that best suits them at a place like Best Buy). I'd wager that market is at least 50% of the PC/Windows market and almost all of the Linux market. I wouldn't want to even guess which percentage of the Macbook or iMac market knows very much about computers in general or could deal with even simple Unix/Linux commands if need be, even on their own Macs.
 
Bingo. An $800 PC can't run the newest games. If you only have an $800 PC, you don't care about the newest games. Games are not important to Apple. If you want to game, do it in Boot Camp on an iMac. That's the most elegant solution.

What good is elegant if it can run the games? Short of the $2200 custom 24" iMac, I have to think your comments are ignorant of iMac hardware and yet you're apparently is willing to jump on my $800 personal example of a machine that is running on the games I'd want to play made in the past 2 years. I've seen one example (Crysis) as a game that MIGHT not run on my system (again I don't own the game to see how its performance is), but I bet if I ran it at 1024x768 or certainly at 800x600 with medium detail, it'd run just fine from what I've read online.

In fact, why don't I post the "recommended" system requirements here (no, not the MINIMUM ones, but the recommended ones!):

Recommended Requirements

CPU: Core 2 Duo/Athlon X2 or better
RAM: 1.5GB
Video Card: NVIDIA 7800 Series, ATI Radeon 1800 Series or better
VRAM: 512MB of Graphics Memory
Storage: 12GB
Sound Card: DirectX 9.0c Compatible
ODD: DVD-ROM
OS: Microsoft Windows XP or Vista
DirectX: DX9.0c or DX10

Let's see my $800 PC has

CPU: AthlonAMD 5600+ (above X2 so check)
Ram: 2GB 800MHz L2 ram (check)
Video card: 7900GS (higher than 7800 series so check)
Storage (320GB on initial config at $800 so check)
Sound Card: Game Theater XP (check)
ODD: DVD-RW at 22x (check)
OS: XP (check)
DirectX: 9.0c (check)

Gee, guess what? That $800 system exceeds the RECOMMENDED specs for Crysis. Is that at maximum settings? I don't think so. That's beside the point. This isn't a "max performance" system we're talking about, but simply one that is adequate to play current games. Now try playing it on an iMac other than the 24" one with the 8800 series GPU (they're all slow laptop GPUs). Good luck getting a useful frame rate.

Now if I had sprung for an additional $250 or so, I could get a high-end GPU, putting the total system price around $1050. For another $400, I could have a high-end SLI setup. What kind of performance can you get on a $1450 Macintosh, eh???? Zilch. Will a $2600 or even a $3200 MacPro setup beat that $1500 PC at playing Crysis? NO FLIPPING WAY.

So IF we're going to talk about Crysis, let's talk about how all Macs save the 24" iMac with custom GPU and MacPro with upgraded GPU are going to SUCK at such gaming adventures in Boot Camp.

NOW maybe you can see why I went with an upgraded PowerMac (hey, if you don't play games, you don't necessarily NEED high-end GPUs or the latest CPUs; I didn't for my primary uses which is running my whole house iTunes server system, secure browsing, word processing, chat, etc.). If I'm going to GAME, though, I need a different system and I'm not paying $2200+ to get it when almost half that will beat those systems.

But no, I'll get another argument how my PC sucks and iMacs rule or something and we don't need no stinking mid-range tower Mac, etc. Please spare me. I've heard it before.

Get an iMac out there in the $1500-1700 range with a 20"-24" monitor and an 8800 or better series GPU, 2Gigs minimum ram and room for 2 hard drives internal and I'll think about getting one.

Otherwise, I'll continue to voice my opinion that the Mac market needs a mid-range expandable Mac with a decent GPU because that market is not covered by current offerings period. Even the MacMini should have a REASONABLE GPU (by reasonable I mean something that is NOT Intel integrated graphics). It and the Macbook are useless for almost all 3D (that isn't 4+ years old). That's obscene, IMO. The Mac is supposed to be BETTER than a PC, especially in graphics and yet the GPU is the #1 sore-point for Macs today and for NO GOOD REASON. If iMacs get too hot with a real card then they should make them a bit thicker. What good is thin if it can't run anything with real 3D requirements? The Mini used to have a separate GPU in it and BRAGGED about it until Jobs thought it'd be smarter to make himself look stupid and ditch what he was bragging about. Macbooks are a nice portable size but have darn near useless 3D in them. Why can't size be about size of the screen and NOT the other specs? Why does "Pro" mean I have to carry around a 15" or 17" screen? That's just NOT the case in the PC market.

Again, it comes down to what Jobs wants to sell you for X profit versus what you might want to buy. Mac users have simply gotten used to the idea of paying more for features they don't need or doing without. To me, that's a darn shame for such a great operating system and it's why operating system software should not be allowed to be artificially tied to one company only hardware. If Apple can't serve the needs of the market and/or is overpricing purely for obscenely high profit margins, then it's something the DOJ should be looking at. They don't look at it because they figure Apple is small potatoes and isn't worth pursuing. If Apple's figures ever do start approaching 15-20% of the market share, I'd expect that all to change in a hurry. Psystar is just the first echo of that.
 
"
Apple v. Psystar - Answer & Counterclaim Filed
Friday, 29 August 2008 12:11
Palo Alto, CA -- August 28, 2008 - Psystar Corporation today filed their answer to Apple Inc.'s allegations of copyright infringement along with a countersuit charging Apple with restraint of trade, unfair competition and other violations of antitrust law. Among those violations are allegations of illegal tying, monopoly maintenance, exclusionary dealing, and copyright misuse. Apple filed suit against Psystar, a Florida-based provider of information technology solutions, for violating its end-user licensing agreement by selling its OpenComputer, a hardware product with the MAC OS X Operating System pre-installed. In a press conference held at Carr & Ferrell's Palo Alto office, Psystar, directly countered Apple's claims of copyright infringement by insisting that each OpenComputer sold to clients is shipped with a legitimately purchased retail copy of MAC OS X. Psystar further claims that they have simply leveraged open source-licensed code including code licensed under Apple's public source license to allow for the operating of the MAC OS.



Psystar's attorney, Colby Springer, states that "the present litigation is more complex than the misinformed and mischaracterized allegations of copyright infringement. The litigation involves the anti-competitive nature of the Apple EULA and similar anti-competitive tactics related to the misuse of Apple's copyrights. Issues related to the fair use of various intellectual properties by Psystar also come into play."



Since Apple filed suit against Psystar, "we have seen increased interest in OpenComputer with only a slight decrease in sales" says Rudy Pedraza, Psystar's CEO. With OpenComputer, "we are allowing more people to take advantage of a great operating system that Apple has created at a more accessible cost than the pricey MAC," continues Pedraza.



Members of the Carr & Ferrell Litigation team include partner, Robert Yorio; of counsel, Colby Springer; and associate, Christine Watson. For additional information regarding this matter, please contact Katy Citron (650.812.3463 / kcitron@carrferrell.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spambots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it ).
"

Looks like this company is doing pretty good for itself afterall. They even check the updates to see if it'll brick your system. They also offer the restore disks now. Looks tempting :rolleyes:

http://www.psystar.com/
 
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