Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I'm pretty sure Apple isn't doing anything because they are concerned about their EULA. Its easier to allow a small company make something which won't really catch on (if you want to run OS X on a PC, its easy as it is) exist, then challenge them, lose, and then possibly be challenged further in court over not allowing software updates.

I know that if the roles between MS and Apple were reversed here in europe, Apple would be paying huge fines for their OS with their bundling, and their EULA would be considered illegal. I'm pretty sure Apple wants to avoid a situation like that, although this is of course getting off topic.
 
Doesn't your statement implicitly assume that the retail price of OS X today is the same as what Apple would set if they were selling it for generic X86 machines? I doubt they would sell it for $129.

The retail price of OSX today is $129. That is a fact. Of course Apple can raise the price should they choose to. So far they haven't.

Apple is getting exactly what they have asked for when PsyStar sells a computer with OSX.

On the other hand, the OSX86 crowd downloads pirated copie of OSX. I doubt that most of them walk into an Apple store a buy a copy of OSX to make their Hackintoshes legal. It is theft if they don't pay Apple the $129 that OSX costs.

As far as we know Apple has not taken any legal action against the OSX86 crowd.
 
Doesn't your statement implicitly assume that the retail price of OS X today is the same as what Apple would set if they were selling it for generic X86 machines? I doubt they would sell it for $129.

Well, let me dispose of all irony then and simply state: "pirates" do not pay full retail. That was actually the claim that I was addressing.

Now let me take up what you were interested in. One clarification: I am not aware that Apple would be obligated in any way, shape or form to support "generic X86 machines". However, they do have an obligation to support the particular X86 machines that they sell, and as the category "X86 machine" suggests, there is considerable genericity there right from the start.

Further genericity is imposed by the fact (blithely ignored by all-too-many users of OSX) that we are talking about yet another Unix distribution, with an open-source foundation. I think that people underestimate, rather dramatically, just how much of the crucial work was done for Apple, for free, by the software community. Fortunately, those within Apple are not so ignorant of this fact, and thus, so far, Apple has by and large been playing nice (in sharp contrast to, for example, Microsoft).

Apple may, in the future, choose to charge a different amount for their operating system; in all likelihood, Psystar would change the price accordingly, but in any case, there is nothing to indicate that they would "pirate" the operating system.

If anyone has any indication to the contrary, please let us know--I'm sure we are all interested to hear about it.

Regarding the so-called "true cost" of OSX: what fantasy are people entertaining in that regard? I have no expertise in the matter of running a software company, but if someone told me that I had to design, code and maintain a user-friendliest GUI for a stable Unix operating system, along with drivers for a fairly restricted list of hardware items of reasonably hight quality, then I would hope to be able to do it with a staff of about 100 coders at a salary of about $100,000-200,000 each (please don't flame me for hiring too many coders--I am trying to make an estimate that errs on the side of higher costs). So the first million copies of the OS sold per year, more or less, would cover that cost; put another, what, million dollars or two for their computers...

So given that there are hundreds of millions of computers out there capable of running that great operating system, and a deplorable alternative trumpeted night and day as "the only alternative", well, I would expect this to be a pretty easy path to profit.

But like I said, I have no personal expertise on the matter. There are other expenses besides the coders (e.g. those test sessions where newbie-like reactions are gauged). Maybe the company would go bust--but I suspect that there would be plenty of well-heeled investors willing to take up the challenge in the expectation of it turning it out otherwise.

Of course, if in the pursuit of even fatter profits, that company were to price the OS much higher than $129, then unfortunately that would encourage people to share a single copy even more, and the decrease in volume may well cause an actual decrease in profit in comparison to the above scenario.

There are advantages in playing nice, and so far, Apple has seen this (as opposed to their history before the return of Steve Jobs). What they have not seen yet--and maybe from where they sit, this is either invisible or clearly unattainable--is the benefit from owning the right to distribute an operating system (with a GUI of their own making!) that can displace any competing product from Microsoft with relative ease, at least among those consumers that are free to make that choice. It sounds like a huge win to me, but so far they have not jumped on that bandwagon.

We'll see what the future brings. By the year 2010, we should have some very interesting information to consider, as I expect by then to see some very enticing offers from the Ubuntu community as well. Thanks to OSX, one seemingly immortal myth has had the proverbial stake driven through its heart: that Unix is too complicated to ever succeed as an operating system for the "typical" computer user. We'll see what other myths are kicking the bucket by then.
 
The copy is not illegal if Apple is paid their $129. How do you think Dell, IBM, and all the other PC vendors load Windows onto their hard drives? They clone hard drives 16 at a time from a master image. Some include Vista CDs or restore CDs that have never been opened.

Apple can file a breech of contract suit against the user claiming violation of the EULA. So far they have never done so for a user running OSX on non-Apple labeled hardware.

Dell, HP, and the other PC vendors (IBM is not a PC vendor anymore; they sold their PC business to Lenovo) can legally install Windows because they signed a contract with Microsoft that allows them to make copies. Small vendors can legally install Windows by buying OEM versions of Windows, where the license explicitly allows such installation. Psystar does not have a contract with Apple that allows them to make multiple copies of one DVD, and Apple does not sell any OEM versions.

If Psystar gives a customer a computer with MacOS X installed, plus an unopened Leopard package, then installing the copy on the computer was copyright infringement by Psystar; I wouldn't want to judge what the legal situation of a customer is if they use this illegally copied version. On the other hand, the unopened Leopard package can be used by the customer in any way they like, limited by copyright law and the EULA as far as it applies legally.

What this means is that if Psystar tries to safe some time by creating a disk image of a working MacOS X installation and duplicating it, instead of installing every copy from a different Leopard DVD, then their actions are plain copyright infringement, without any doubt.

The Supreme Court said that according to the "first sale" doctrine, once a copyright owner places a copyrighted item in the stream of commerce, it has no further right to control its distribution. Thus any lawful purchaser of such products may dispose of them as they please without further obligation.

This is not about distribution, it is about copying. It is quite possible that Apple cannot prevent Psystar from buying boxes with Leopard and selling them on to their customers. That is distribution, no copying happening, and falls under the "first sale" doctrine. However, as soon as the software is installed, copyright law comes into the play, and copyright law allows the copyright holder to determine where and when and how copies can be made.

There’s another issue that bears some thought. If Apple sues someone over violation of the EULA then they will have to go through legal discovery and turn over internal Apple documents and emails related to OSX and hardware. They may not want to do that as the documents would become public at some point. Discovery requests are always a pain and I’m sure Steve Jobs has some emails that he doesn’t want to become public.

What you suggest would likely get a response like "overly broad, overly burdensome, not related to the case in question" and could lead to sanctions against the lawyers making such a request. Or could you explain to us how any informations about Apple hardware, for example, could help a court decide whether or not Psystar is in violation of Apple's EULA?

Regarding the so-called "true cost" of OSX: what fantasy are people entertaining in that regard? I have no expertise in the matter of running a software company, but if someone told me that I had to design, code and maintain a user-friendliest GUI for a stable Unix operating system, along with drivers for a fairly restricted list of hardware items of reasonably hight quality, then I would hope to be able to do it with a staff of about 100 coders at a salary of about $100,000-200,000 each (please don't flame me for hiring too many coders--I am trying to make an estimate that errs on the side of higher costs). So the first million copies of the OS sold per year, more or less, would cover that cost; put another, what, million dollars or two for their computers...

So you think that developing Leopard cost Apple about $12 million. For comparison, the estimated cost of developing Vista is about $6000 million, five hundred times as much. Now I can believe that Apple is very, very efficient, but not _that_ efficient :D

And it doesn't matter what the cost is. If developing Leopard was cheap, then you could easily find the money to develop a competitor, and license it to all the Psystars of this world. As long as you don't, Apple is the copyright holder and _they_ have the say what they do with their software and how they sell it and nobody else.
 
The copy is not illegal if Apple is paid their $129. How do you think Dell, IBM, and all the other PC vendors load Windows onto their hard drives? They clone hard drives 16 at a time from a master image. Some include Vista CDs or restore CDs that have never been opened.

Apple can file a breech of contract suit against the user claiming violation of the EULA. So far they have never done so for a user running OSX on non-Apple labeled hardware.

True, but aren't those vendors licensed by MS. There is a business agreement between the two parties.

Psystar has no contract with Apple for mass installing OSX on to it's computers. So technically aren't they installing an illegal copy of the software. Isn't it like uploading music from one purchased CD to multiple users and then sending them all a purchased copy of the music. You can claim that the music companies were justly compensated but the act of uploading the music is still an illegal act because you had no agreement with the music companies. There was a violation of the music companies property rights.
 
Dell, HP, and the other PC vendors (IBM is not a PC vendor anymore; they sold their PC business to Lenovo) can legally install Windows because they signed a contract with Microsoft that allows them to make copies. Small vendors can legally install Windows by buying OEM versions of Windows, where the license explicitly allows such installation. Psystar does not have a contract with Apple that allows them to make multiple copies of one DVD, and Apple does not sell any OEM versions.

I'm curious, what is your source for this information?

What you suggest would likely get a response like "overly broad, overly burdensome, not related to the case in question" and could lead to sanctions against the lawyers making such a request.

Oh come on, now you're just making stuff up. :rolleyes:

So you think that developing Leopard cost Apple about $12 million. For comparison, the estimated cost of developing Vista is about $6000 million, five hundred times as much. Now I can believe that Apple is very, very efficient, but not _that_ efficient :D

And it doesn't matter what the cost is. If developing Leopard was cheap, then you could easily find the money to develop a competitor, and license it to all the Psystars of this world. As long as you don't, Apple is the copyright holder and _they_ have the say what they do with their software and how they sell it and nobody else.

So do you think that Apple can forbid the sale of their software to someone who is Jewish? I think this simple question demonstrates the extent to which you are denying the limitations that any company is subject to, such as for example the rule of law.
 
Further genericity is imposed by the fact (blithely ignored by all-too-many users of OSX) that we are talking about yet another Unix distribution, with an open-source foundation. I think that people underestimate, rather dramatically, just how much of the crucial work was done for Apple, for free, by the software community.

What open-source foundation and what software community are you referring to?
 
What you suggest would likely get a response like "overly broad, overly burdensome, not related to the case in question" and could lead to sanctions against the lawyers making such a request. Or could you explain to us how any informations about Apple hardware, for example, could help a court decide whether or not Psystar is in violation of Apple's EULA?

All replies to discovery requests contain such language. In the last 7 years I've been through around 15 discovery battles and my experience has been that judges are fairly liberal in requirering the documents to be produced (excepting for privileged documents). While everyone tries to restrict what documents are produced, no one wants to risk sanctions for not producing documents. My practice has been to turn everything over to our lawyers and they decide what is responsive.

My point is simply that Apple may not want to get involved in a discovery battle. While we assume that the legal battle will be about the EULA, Apple may decide take a different approach. Until Apple takes some legal action we can only speculate on their reasons for not taking legal action or what action they might take.

.....

What this means is that if Psystar tries to safe some time by creating a disk image of a working MacOS X installation and duplicating it, instead of installing every copy from a different Leopard DVD, then their actions are plain copyright infringement, without any doubt.

There is plenty of doubt that it is copyright infringement. If there wasn't any doubt that there was a copyright infringement, Apple would have sued by now. They haven't. Why?

What we think doesn't matter. It will take a court to determine that there is an infringement. Until that time comes, it is just speculation on our part to say that there is or is not infringement of Apple's copyrights.
 
There is plenty of doubt that it is copyright infringement. If there wasn't any doubt that there was a copyright infringement, Apple would have sued by now. They haven't. Why?

I'm speculating that Apple is monitoring the situation and as yet hasn't concluded that Psystar is enough of a threat to Apple's bottom line.

I mean who but a few geeks and the curious(Macworld, ect.) would actually spend money on something as half baked as the Psystar Open Computer.

These Psystar jokers probably have little or no visible assets to attach so why bother going to court.

If someone such as Dell tried this(Michael developed a brain tumor or something) of course Apple would be in court in a nano second.

That's my take on it.

I'm no Apple fan boy and for a serious hobbyist creating music an upgradable mini tower Mac has been on my wish list for some time but I guess Apple has other plans.

The Psystar solution looks like just a cruel joke to me.
 
Since Apple based their software on an Open Source Unix platform, the EULA may actually be invalid either in part or entirely. If it went before a court, and this was determined to be the case, Apple would be in an extremely vulnerable position. Suits would spring up like wildflowers, and the cost immeasurable. Therefore it's not in their best interest, so it is likely that they won't pursue the matter in a court room.

I think it more likely that they would adapt the next update to recognize the "hack", and disable it, rendering the installation of OS X useless.
 
I think it more likely that they would adapt the next update to recognize the "hack", and disable it, rendering the installation of OS X useless.

It seems that technically this ranges somewhere between very tricky, highly difficult or practically impossible. We'll see soon enough...
 
Since Apple based their software on an Open Source Unix platform, the EULA may actually be invalid either in part or entirely. If it went before a court, and this was determined to be the case, Apple would be in an extremely vulnerable position. Suits would spring up like wildflowers, and the cost immeasurable. Therefore it's not in their best interest, so it is likely that they won't pursue the matter in a court room.

Yes and no. The BSD license is not like the GPL. It doesn't prevent you from forking BSD code into closed source apps (although Apple seems to have avoided doing this for the most part).

I don't think the OSS nature of Darwin would have an impact on Apple's ability to defend the IP in OS X. The EULA is either valid in the eyes of the judge or it isn't.

EDIT: There is one interesting thing, if shrinkwrap EULAs are unenforcable, then it likely sets a precedent that the GPL and other OSS licenses are also unenforcable. Striking down shrinkwrap EULAs would hurt the OSS movement just as much as it would hurt closed source businesses. (This doesn't mean that if one of the clauses in Apple's EULA is invalid, then the GPL goes with it, only if shrinkwrap EULAs themselves go)
 
There is one interesting thing, if shrinkwrap EULAs are unenforcable, then it likely sets a precedent that the GPL and other OSS licenses are also unenforcable. Striking down shrinkwrap EULAs would hurt the OSS movement just as much as it would hurt closed source businesses. (This doesn't mean that if one of the clauses in Apple's EULA is invalid, then the GPL goes with it, only if shrinkwrap EULAs themselves go)

Oh no, not that one again.

When you acquire software in any legal way, with no license in place, then you are allowed to do with it what copyright law allows you, not more and not less. That means for example installing on one (not two) computers, making backups, and incidental copies, like copies when the software is loaded into memory, or ends up in a swap file, or if a copy is made while a disk defragmenter is running.

Most software comes with a shrinkwrap license that restricts these rights. For example, Leopard comes with a license that restricts you to not install the software on any computer, but only on Apple computers. The GPL, on the other hand, allows you to do things that you would otherwise not be allowed to do. If the GPL license were invalid, it would stop giving you the right to make copies of the GPL'd software.

There is plenty of doubt that it is copyright infringement. If there wasn't any doubt that there was a copyright infringement, Apple would have sued by now. They haven't. Why?

Because Psystar is a "company" run by one man and his dog and at this point not worth suing. Look at what they offer; you would have to be particularly stupid to buy any of their wares. If I wanted to run MacOS X on a non-Apple computer, I would educate myself on the Internet, and then buy a quality computer from a reputable company, and install MacOS X myself. The risk of buying a dud is much lower, and I think the risk of legal problems is lower as well.
 
Because Psystar is a "company" run by one man and his dog and at this point not worth suing. ....l.

Look up the legal concept of Latches. If Apple fails to defend their rights they may loose them - even if it's only a guy and his dog.

Since they haven't sued anyone in the OSX86 crowd in two years of existance, a judge could bar Apple from pursuing PsyStar or anyone else who runs OSX on non-Apple hardware.

For the record, they sent the OSX86 forum a DMCA letter forcing the OSX86 forum to remove links to certian files Apple felt were infringing, they never took any action against the CREATORS or users of said utilities.

Oh no, not that one again.

....Most software comes with a shrinkwrap license that restricts these rights. For example, Leopard comes with a license that restricts you to not install the software on any computer, but only on Apple computers. ....

The copyright law grants the holder of the copyright 6 exclusive rights. While the copyright holder can claim other rights, the courts will/have strike/struck down those claims even in the context of a license (EULA).

See Title 17, section 106, paragraph 2.

If a user negotiates the EULA with the copyright holder prior to purchase he can of course waive such rights but with shrinkwrap, non-negotiated licenses such waivors have been struck. The courts have been on both sides of the issue.

Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd. is a case to read.



As for the exclusive platform requirement by Apple argument, I've posted in this thread a California case which ruled that you can't tie an OS to your hardware.

DigiDyne Corp. Vs. Data General (734 F.2d 1336 (9th circuit, 1984))

What don't you understand about the DigiDyne case?

In the end it's all a paper tiger if the copyright holder doesn't take action to preserve his rights.
 
Oh no, not that one again.

When you acquire software in any legal way, with no license in place, then you are allowed to do with it what copyright law allows you, not more and not less. That means for example installing on one (not two) computers, making backups, and incidental copies, like copies when the software is loaded into memory, or ends up in a swap file, or if a copy is made while a disk defragmenter is running.

Most software comes with a shrinkwrap license that restricts these rights. For example, Leopard comes with a license that restricts you to not install the software on any computer, but only on Apple computers. The GPL, on the other hand, allows you to do things that you would otherwise not be allowed to do. If the GPL license were invalid, it would stop giving you the right to make copies of the GPL'd software.

You misunderstood my comment, read it again. :)

I mentioned if shrinkwrap EULAs are unenforcable, then the GPL goes with it. I even make the distinction between an invalid clause, and invalidity of EULAs themselves.

Myself said:
(This doesn't mean that if one of the clauses in Apple's EULA is invalid, then the GPL goes with it, only if shrinkwrap EULAs themselves go)

Sure, if the GPL suddenly became invalid, it wouldn't stop you from /consuming/ OSS, but it would certainly make things rather interesting (not to mention create a hostile environment for OSS devs) if you got morons using legal injunctions to prevent someone from forking code and the like.

Now, depending on your jurisdiction, a particular EULA with an invalid clause seems like it has different results. Some jurisdictions only strike the invalid clause. Others strike the entire contract. It would be interesting to see how all these interactions play out in court, to be honest.

But yeah, you missed a couple details in the earlier random comment I made.
 
You misunderstood my comment, read it again. :)

I mentioned if shrinkwrap EULAs are unenforcable, then the GPL goes with it. I even make the distinction between an invalid clause, and invalidity of EULAs themselves.

I don't understand why you think that a EULA like Apple's is similar to the GPL. I'd love to see the look on rms' face if you ever get the chance to warn him about this impending peril. :D

The GPL does not allow someone to take some code and redistribute it with a more restrictive license. You can't re-brand emacs and try to pass it off as something else, basically, or hide the source code when you redistribute it.

The GPL forbids distributors from restricting the rights of their distributees to do as much with the original code as the distributors could do.

If a distributor wishes to have a more restrictive license applied to the code that he destributes, then he simply has to avoid using GPL code.

At no point, however, is the GPL code forbidding anyone from using it in a particular hardware environment, or for a particular purpose--except if the purpose is to break the GPL concept to begin with.

So it seems to me that a GPL author has a much easier claim to uphold... "But judge, that guy took my code, which I specifically donated to all the world for all eternity on the condition that anyone that distributes it cannot interfere with my intention for it to be free, and he distributes it without telling people about the conditions under which he acquired it."

It's pretty recursive (you knew it would be). Apple's EULA is not, since it tries to tell you what hardware you can use with the software; its only recursiveness is in the restriction to the Apple brand, but branding is hardly something that we are bound to obey. :)

In any case, the GPL is as old as the hills and in spite of how it has bothered some people, it's still around and respected. It seems to have as much weight as a code of honor than as a legal barrier. Apple's EULA is just not in the same league, and if it were not for some people's conviction that the well-moneyed corporation MUST win, we would not be entertaining much consideration that said EULA would be enforced by the courts.
 
In any case, the GPL is as old as the hills and in spite of how it has bothered some people, it's still around and respected. It seems to have as much weight as a code of honor than as a legal barrier. Apple's EULA is just not in the same league, and if it were not for some people's conviction that the well-moneyed corporation MUST win, we would not be entertaining much consideration that said EULA would be enforced by the courts.

There is one key similarity... they are both EULAs. The GPL is a license (hence GNU Public License), to the end-user, in which the end user agrees to a set of conditions.

Now, you can argue that the conditions in the EULA make one EULA more valid than another, but if EULAs as a whole are invalid, the GPL does follow. Which is a really crappy double-edged sword if you think about it.

I never claimed that Apple's EULA is /as valid/ as the GPL, but rather if you attack the validity of all EULAs, you attack the validity of other less-restrictive EULAs as well. ;)
 
I apologize if I wasn't clear. My comments were aimed at the "hardware restriction" in Apple's EULA, and how this may be affected by the use of Open Source code, no matter how modified.

I agree that this issue would likely be unsolved until it enters a court.

I was just thinking that if this did make it to court, a precedent may be set, opening Apple to cases in other jurisdictions, both domestic and foreign.
 
This shows how people really love the MAC OX........

That brings interesting images to mind. ;)

They will try every means to get their hands on it...even if it means..not getting it with the original apple hardware...

The issue is not so much the OS as the fact that Apple refuses to market a system with similar specs. As others have pointed out, the cost of a Mac mini is not much different than that of the Psystar. But the Psystar is an expandable, upgradeable system with better performance. If Apple sold a system like this, I would consider it a better choice even for higher cost. But they don't.
 
This shows how people really love the MAC OX........

They will try every means to get their hands on it...even if it means..not getting it with the original apple hardware...

Or they'll just settle on a machine that doesn't come close to meeting their needs to get it. Its funny we have Microsoft who is brilliant at marketing software but couldn't write a decent piece of it to save their life and Apple whose biases and personalities lead them to not quite understand what they really have or how vulnerable Microsoft really is.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.