Now that looks really sweet, actually !
For practical reasons, you might want to keep the handles, though.
Also, add a G5-like clear inner shell, for those who want to maintain airflow while still being able to see them UV-reactive cables !
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The 2009 (Gainestown) Mac Pro: Everything We Know
- Thread starter Tallest Skil
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
- Status
Now that looks really sweet, actually !
For practical reasons, you might want to keep the handles, though.
Also, add a G5-like clear inner shell, for those who want to maintain airflow while still being able to see them UV-reactive cables !
Now that looks really sweet, actually !
For practical reasons, you might want to keep the handles, though.
Also, add a G5-like clear inner shell, for those who want to maintain airflow while still being able to see them UV-reactive cables !
Oh, they're still there, but you can't see them on his mockup of my design. Look at the picture in my first post with words for their location; they're just recessed.
And a clear panel inside would be nice. Even though I didn't like the look of the G5 internals (at least, not as much as the Intel internals), I loved the clear panel letting you see inside.
Very nice mockups there. Tallest Skil, how about a post or a section in your first post that links to all the mockups, if such a section is needed?
And I don't know if any Xserve discussion is appropriate in this thread (because it and the Mac Pro have similar CPUs and release dates), but if Apple wants to keep the 80 W TDP of the current Xserve Harpertowns, the maximum speed that can be used is 2.53 GHz ($744 as opposed to the $915 of the 3.0 GHz Harpertown). That 2.53 GHz CPU is also the top of the 1067 MHz RAM Gainestowns.
I'll see if I can find the time to have a go, but really these things take months to get properly right... I certainly don't have that much time particularly as I think it is a bit of a fools game - I'm about 90% sure the new design will be the same or an evolution of the current one.
Maybe a Mechanical Drafting/CAD course is in order?
Once I get these gen-eds out of the way. Ugh.
Any idea as to how the ACDs are going to be changed for the Mac Pro? One thing holding me back from just buying a Mac Pro right now is me wanting the new ACD, but it doesn't work with the current Mac Pro.
Is it going to strictly going to be an adapter?
Is it going to strictly going to be an adapter?
I talked about that a few posts back and then threw it in the original:
I believe that Apple will include cards with dual Mini DisplayPort out only, and then include two Mini DisplayPort-DVI (single link) adapters in the box for compatibility with both THEIR line of displays and others (because it's a workstation. You won't be replacing displays with it).
Also, the 30" LED Cinema Display will logically be launched with the Gainestown Mac Pro, since it didn't come out at MacWorld.
Yeah that's what I'm afraid of if I buy now... I'd rather have the mini DVI ports.
Don't you think the price of a 30" LED Display would be a lot cheaper than the current 30"? It seems like a ridiculous price jump from the 24" LED to the current 30" LCD. Seems like they would adjust the price, but then again people are still buying the 30" at the $1800 or whatever it is right now.
Don't you think the price of a 30" LED Display would be a lot cheaper than the current 30"? It seems like a ridiculous price jump from the 24" LED to the current 30" LCD. Seems like they would adjust the price, but then again people are still buying the 30" at the $1800 or whatever it is right now.
Google DVI.
Google DisplayPort.
They're not the same.
No. The 30" LED Cinema Display... will most likely stay the exact same price as it is now.
That's reasonable. I wonder if the 20" ACD will be discontinued and a 40" 3840x2400 display be added.
I'm betting on the discontinuation of the 20", but a 40"... Ehh...
Is there evidence to support it?
Slight niggle here: Please, please, PLEASE keep this discussion limited to the Mac Pro. If someone wants to make a thread for the xMac like this, I would be happy to see one, but don't post any xMac ramblings here, please. Thank you in advance.
Updated to reflect posts as of 1/19/2009; 6:09 A.M. Now with epic mockup action!
This thread exists because I acknowledge that, while I have been very good at getting future specs correct in the past, I'm a little out of my league here. I don't know much about Intel's workstation hardware. I just want to learn more, is all! It's never a bad thing to learn. Also, it's nice to have a repository of information. Remember Multimedia's huge thread? I just hope that I don't wind up banned because of this one...
This first post will be edited as we gain more and more clarified information. The newest additions to general information will be in red. For everything underlined, I would personally like clarification on my points and information based on what everyone thinks will happen to said point, either for or against what I have said.
Points yet to be decided upon:
Gainestown production status: Unknown, presumed not begun
Release Date: H1 2009, before Snow Leopard (WWDC 2009 inclusive)
Base Price: $2,999
Ethernet: Dual gigabit or dual 10G
FireWire: two 800, two 3200, or two 400/two 800 (unlikely)
Hardware RAID: Does Tylersburg support it?
Fiber card: Will a better fiber card stop us from getting 10G Ethernet?
2TB HDD: Only possible if the WD HDDs are released before the Mac Pro... will they be?
SSD: What is the capacity of available 3.5" SSDs?
AirPort Extreme: Will it be standard? Apple had a rationale last time for not making it standard.
Hardware Specifications:
2.66, 2.8, 2.93, and 3.2GHz 8-core Gainestown Xeon processors
2 risers with 12 slots for 1333MHz ECC DDR3 RAM. It will not be FB-DIMMs. They must be added in sets of three DIMMs at once. Up to 96GB of RAM will be physically possible at release.
The ODDs will change to SATA
The three graphics options will be: up to four GeForce 9600GT or Radeon 4670, the GTX 260, and the nVidia Quadro FX 4800 or 5800
500GB HDD standard, with options for 750, 1TB, and 2TB*, as well as an SSD option (potential size?) and a 300, 450, or 600GB SAS option.
I/O:
PCIe 2.0 expansion: two 16x and two 4x, or four 16x (here's something I just thought of: two double-wide 16x?)
Bluetooth 2.1 EDR
5 (minimum) USB 2.0
Optical audio I/O
Analog audio I/O
Things we won't see:
USB 3.0 (2010, people)
WiMax (just making sure you're paying attention)
Blu-ray (see below)
Narrative:
SO! It's almost that time of the cycle again! We're getting closer to the beloved 518 days since a Mac Pro update, and boy, oh, boy, are things heating up! Or at least, they SHOULD have been. In fact, Gainestown was scheduled for a November 2008 production back in the middle of last year, but, along with everything else in the Nehalem line (except for Core i7...dorks...), has been pushed back. We have been hearing "Q1 production" for a while, but haven't heard anything recently.
The processor, Gainestown:
Gainestown is the two-processor variant of the Nehalem Xeon. The two most likely candidates for the Nehalem Mac Pro are the W5580 and the X5570. It will also include either (both?) the X5560 or the X5550. These four processors clock in at 3.2, 2.93, 2.8, and 2.66GHz, respectively. In 1,000 count lots, these processors cost $3,200, $2,772, $2,344, and $1,916, respectively.
That's a lot of money for the upper three, folks. I'll get into why those prices are significant later.
Assuming the 2.8GHz chip as the standard configuration, the base model price is expected to jump to around $3,000. Assuming the 2.66GHz chip as a BTO option to make it cheaper, the lowest price for the Mac Pro would become around $2,500.
The chipset, Tylersburg:
Gainestown goes in the Tylersburg chipset. Tylersburg supports two I/O hubs, meaning that we could see up to 4 PCIe 2.0 16x slots and 2 PCIe 2.0 4x slots. That's cool. I, personally, refuse to believe that Apple would do that, for various reasons known only to them. I think that we might see either two 16x and two 4x or four 16x.
Now the little things:
AirPort Extreme (802.11 a/b/g/n). Will it remain optional? I thought the reasoning behind this was that some businesses didn't want Wi-Fi in their computers, but I could be way off. It's been QUITE a while since I've heard any rationale on leaving it out.
FireWire: The current Mac Pro has two 400 and two 800. Here are two actually plausible scenarios: two 800 only or two 3200 (does Tylersburg support it?) I do not believe that Apple will retain the FireWire 400, given they removed it from their other pro product, the MacBook Pro, and failed to add it to the 17" model after three months' time to see the response.
GPUs: Discussion on what GPUs will be available is open, as well, but what about Mini DisplayPort? I believe that Apple will have all models include two Mini DisplayPort ports, and include IN THE BOX two Mini DisplayPort to single-link DVI adapters (making the dual-link DVI adapter a BTO thing at, perhaps, a slight discount?)
Blu-ray: Ugh. Here it is. Apple will be forced to add Blu-ray around 2015 to remain competitive with video media.
400GB Blu-ray disks will be in production in 2012-3. Whats the point? you ask. Super Hi-Vision. Super Hi-Vision is the next video format. Its 7680x4320. Thats 4320p. Super Hi-Vision in MPEG-2 is 600Mb/s.
U.S. Internet speeds WILL NOT keep up with this. Heck, most of us cant get 1080p in anywhere near a decent amount of time. To top it off, many of the major ISPs are putting monthly caps on bandwidth and time limits on the maximum advertised speed of their service.
We wont be able to download 4320p movies in iTunes because our ISPs will give us the freaking shaft. Itll be days to the download, even in 2015. Well all mostly have the bandwidth for very quick 1080p movie downloads, so iTunes will be able to offer that, but itll be the same situation in the future as it is now: Instead of people having 1920x1080 TVs with their SD iTunes movies playing on them through an Apple TV, people will have 7680x4320 TVs with 1080p movies playing on them through an Apple TV.
Where do I get my date for Super Hi-Vision adoption? Well, Japan will start 4320p television broadcasts in 2012, and the 400GB Blu-ray disks go into production in 2013 Television manufacturers are starting to make half-Super Hi-Vision TVs (4096x2160) on the highest-end already.
Redesign talk:
I have never been a proponent of a Mac Pro case redesign. Well, I was, but I was young and naïve. Now, I see no case redesign for three reasons:
1. WHY. It STILL looks amazing; the cheese grater is timeless.
2. The Mac Pro's audience generally tucks the tower out of the way after purchase, anyway. As much as it could be, it isn't a "show" computer.
3. Most importantly... what would it be changed to? For the past year, I've been trying to come up with a new design, and I couldn't do it because I just have no idea how to make it look better... because there isn't a lot that you can do to make it look better.
Explanation Section:
Release date: Based on the pushing back of production dates and the build time required thereafter, late spring or WWDC 2009 are good dates for release. Coincidentally, WWDC 2009 takes place exactly 518 days after the release of the Penryn Mac Pro. For those of you following my "518 days" complaint, you know what I'm talking about.
$2,999: Apple should be getting a better price than that of the 1,000 lot price, because they'll be ordering more. However, the per-consumer price of Harpertown was the same as the 1,000 lot price for those chips so we'll see something very similar with Gainestown.
SATA ODDs: Based on the change for the MacBook line. Besides, even though ODDs don't get anywhere close to saturating the SATA transfer rate, ATA is old, man! Tylersburg supports six SATA ports, so that's four for HDDs, and then the other two (which exist on the current logic board hidden behind the fanssome people use them) can be used for the ODDs.
2TB HDD: Based on the fiasco associated with Seagate's 1.5TB drives and based on the time it takes to actually get this computer out to us, Apple might have 2TB 3.5" drives available to take advantage of as a stupidly expensive BTO option.
More to be added: your input is greatly appreciated. Discussion, ho!
**Contributors:
Umbongo: Tylersburg I/O clarification, GPU suggestions, real-world RAM limits, and better thread title than my unposted original
RobLS: reminding me about AirPort
Mattww: reminding me to add RAM clock speed and ECC
Greenhoe: reminding me about Mini DisplayPort on the GPUs.
rylin: for giving me the color timestamp idea
Eidorian: Radeon 4670 correction
J the Ninja: convincing me that they'll only use two risers. It makes sense.
iMacmatician: multiple lowest-end GPU reminder, CPU speculation, and Blu-ray placement fix
bradleykavin: I needed to add downtime between production and release
What we don't know Apple's intentions or product configurations.
Additions.
Tylersburg configurations:
Tylersburg exists in four variants: SP/24, SP/36, DP/24, DP/36. The SP or DP refers to whether it has a single QPI link for a single CPU or twin QPI links for dual CPUs. The number indicates whether it has 24 or 36 PCI-express lanes. All variants are SLI/Crossfire compatible. This single platform is intended to replace both x48 for high end single socket desktops and the 5400 chipset in dual-CPU xeon workstations.
Bloomfield/Gainestown. With the exception of a second QPI link for dual CPU configurations, these two chips are identical. Both will work in either SP or DP tylersburg motherboards, though bloomfield will be limited to a single CPU in DP motherboards. Gainestown (Branded Xeon 5500), however will be produced in a wider array of frequencies than Bloomfield (branded core i7 and Xeon 3500)
ECC memory support: There is some miss information about the Nehalem platform not supporting ECC memory. This is both true and false. Bloomfield CPUs with the consumer Core i7 branding have ECC memory support disabled. Bloomsfield CPUs with the Xeon 3500 branding and Gainstown Xeon 5500s have full ECC-support up to DDR3 1333.
Single CPU configuration:
When Apple moved to the PowerPC 970 (G5) they created a revolutionary new northbridge to accompany it called U3. U3 was designed be modular. U3 and U3H were designed for use in dual CPU workstations and servers. It was designed to connect to the K2 southbridge with an optional PCI-X controller between them at 1.6, 3.2, or 4.8 GBps through 8 and 16-bit Hypertransport buses. This allowed Apple to offer its G5s with single or dual CPUs, PCI or PCI-X, with 4 or 8 DIMM slots. The family also consisted of U3L designed for desktops. It was paired with a southbridge called shasta. U3L used a physically smaller motherboard and showed up in both the 1.8ghz single CPU PMG5 and the AGP iMac G5.
What does an old PPC G5 chipset have to do with the next revision of the Mac Pro? Perhaps quite a lot. On the intel platform, there was a divide. Desktops and servers/workstations used slightly different chips, with different sockets, different memory, and different chipsets. These factors have kept the base single CPU MacPro as a very expensive proposition as an entry-level Core 2 PowerMac would have been a completely different beast. With Nehalem/Tylersburg, this is no longer the case. The situation is much the same as G5/U3, same basic CPU core, variations of the same chipset, same socket, same memory. Xeon 3500/5500 and Tylersburg SP/DP are for the most part interchangeable. What this means for configurations is unknown, but the hurdles that have kept the line well over the $2000 mark are potentially solved.
Design and innovation.
The future of the cheese grater design depends a lot on its ability to adapt to using triple channel DDR3 memory. The integrated controllers on the CPUs each have support for three DDR3 DIMMs for a max of 9 in a single CPU configuration or a whopping 18 in a dual CPU configuration. They may also not be mountable on a riser card like FB-DIMMs. While this may seem a challenge, it also gives Apple a chance to innovate. So what could it possibly use?
First are the drives. With the Xserve and now MacPro, Apple is well versed in easy swap drives. There is even a rumor that the next Mac Mini could have an option to remove the optical drive for a second hard drive. There exists the possibility to take it one step further. Modular front bays. Yes, there are ideas like this out there like Cooler Masters' stacker series. But they haven't been used in any real first party system and quite frankly they look a bit like crap. Apple could do much better. A single 5.25" bay can house a single full size optical drive, dual slim notebook optical drives, a single 3.5" hard drive or card reader, a front I/O panel, or any 5.25 or 3.5" device not listed here. 2 bays can house fans up to 88mm (80MM standard) and 3 can house fans up to 133mm (120mm standard).
Another area where they could improve is possibly using an external power supply although, I can't think of one being used in the wattage the Mac Pro would require. It would have the advantage of freeing up room in the case and would lesson the cooling requirements for both the CPU and the power supply being in cooler air away from the CPU and motherboard.
my god man, how big of displays do people need!?
here i am thinking 40inch is huge for a tv sitting 10ft back lol
This statement would mean Apple having custom graphics cards made. I would think it is cheaper for them to just produce a DisplayPort to Mini DisplayPort cable. The potential GPUs we have talked about all have versions available with DisplayPort already. I can't see Apple having a custom Quadro FX 5800 made, being as the two manufacturers of them use the same design anyway (which has 2xD-DVI and 1xDisplayPort.
Added to the OP. Why did you quote the whole thing, by the way?
Do you think a single 2.8 is more likely than a quad 2.66 on the low end?
I thought that it was 12 DIMMs...
It's Apple. The company that pushed every single button and port on all of their other computers to the back isn't going to cut more holes in the front of their tower, so expect side, tray-loading HDDs for a while.
I didn't quote anything.
Single CPU, quad cores. Single and dual core desktop/workstation CPUs are just about extinct with Nehalem.
They support up to 9 a piece, but 6 (12 in dual CPU setup) is much more likely to be the standard configuration because of real-estate concerns.
The hole is already cut, the front panel of the G5/Mac-Pro line is a mesh screen.
My entire first post is in your post!
On the design, Apple wants clean lines. There HAVE to be holes for the drives in front, but they wouldn't cut more for removable HDD bays.
What was the purpose of the unibody notebooks, again? Getting rid of all the seams.
Seamless integration of software with itself and other software, seamless integration of hardware and software, and now seamless integration of hardware with itself...
My entire first post is in your post!
Oh. I thought you were talking about the stuff about Tylersburg possibly being quoted from a site.
Use black mesh and the lines will be much less visible while updating the design to fit with designs of the new Macbooks and cinema display.
Of course it takes months to design such a machine properly, but it is fun doing something quickly just to think about it, and just for fun, I think.
Anywhere here is an update to mine to show Tallest Skils idea with the handles. Thanks for the other feedback.
Attachments
You totally rock, you know that? Great mockup. Here I am, at one of the best computer engineering schools in the country, and all I have this entire month is one gen-ed class, because that's all they let us take (one class)...
LOTS of down time, lots of boringness, no major-related classes, and I was in Ireland last semester, so I don't KNOW anyone in my field that has the passion I do for this stuff... I've been trying to teach myself this stuff (CS4, 3D mockup software, etc.) but it isn't going too well...
So which of the four Tylersburgs are they going to use?
yummmmm loves me some mac pro oreo
you could always play around with the student version of maya or blender (freeware), google sketchup for just rough designs
nice mockup
very professional, but Apple wont release one looking like that.They're going through this phase of removing everything possible until your left with the bare essentials
or thats what that dopey English guy who designs all the products said on the Apple site when he was talking about the new aluminium unibody designs.
- Status