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12inch and 17inch Powerbooks Released

Re: Re: New 12 Inch Ibook

Originally posted by NitroPye


Well maybe you got a better deal for what you use it for but for the bang for the buck its indisputable the AlBook is a better deal. And the price you quoted for the Albook is out of wack assuming you got the printer at macmall for free with the ibook. Plus their is no tax online im pretty sure unless your in a specific state (correct me if I am wrong)
Click to expand...

How is the AluBook more "bang for the buck". Other than the built-in Bluetooth I don't really see getting more value from an AluBook than what I currently have. I agree that the $900 price difference sounds waaaaay out of whack, though - the price difference is essentially the $500 difference in base price. So what are you getting for that $500?

- G4 vs. G3: OK granted this is important if you really want to do Photoshop on your 12.1" screen, but if you're like me and most people, you really don't benefit that much from Altivec.

- GeForce4 vs ATI Radeon 7500: from what I've read the Radeon may even be faster

- 10GB more drive space: Ok this is nice, but how much is it worth?

- Built-in Bluetooth: OK this is very cool

- Airport Extreme ready: won't make a difference for most people

- DDR RAM: This I think is the second best enhancement after Bluetooth, but again it just wouldn't be worth $500 more to me.

In fact even $1300 was a lot for me since I really didn't need a CD-RW. I would've rather had the $50 DVD upgrade of the low-end iBook, if that was available.

iBook still rules!
 
your right the ibook rules, but the albook is meant to be the next evolutionary step. Like I said, this is my first mac, I plan to use my new 12" albook to edit things in imovie, use photoshop, play games, surf the net, burn cds. All of these things use lots of hard drive space, thats why I opted for the 60gig, where the ibook tops out 40. I just think that the 12" albook is good for people like me who need more power than the ibook can provide. I don't look at the 12" albook as a pro-user portable, but a "prosumer"portable.
 
Apple Store has tax becuase they have stores to most states and they are represented in each state..... I dident get the printer for free i got the Lexmark Z55? how doe shte alubook give u more bang for the buck it would if it had a L3 and a better graphics card..... but without that i dont think its worth a 1000 extra...... All a G4 is a pretty much a G3 with AltiVec and the G3 in the Ibook are nice, there .13 microns comparied to the G4 which is .18 they use very little power run cool and support DDR (not fake DDR like the G4s but true DDR) but apple doesent utalize this...... but then again the chip is made by microsoft i have to admit the bigger hard drive would be nice but other than that thery are the same computer, one has altivec the other one doesent, one has fake DDR the other one doesent and i think the gains made by altivec will be offset by the cripaling 256k of L2 and no L3........oh yea different case
 
this is very similar to the P4 vs. Celeron issue on the PC side of things. Something tells me that Apple wouldn't have bothered making the 12"albook if it's slower than the less expensive ibook, Apple is too smart for that, the backlash from customers would be horrible for them, when they are trying to get every customer they can right now
 
Originally posted by blueBomber
your right the ibook rules, but the albook is meant to be the next evolutionary step. Like I said, this is my first mac, I plan to use my new 12" albook to edit things in imovie, use photoshop, play games, surf the net, burn cds. All of these things use lots of hard drive space, thats why I opted for the 60gig, where the ibook tops out 40. I just think that the 12" albook is good for people like me who need more power than the ibook can provide. I don't look at the 12" albook as a pro-user portable, but a "prosumer"portable.
Click to expand...

Well hopefully someday I'll have the financial wherewithal to join the "prosumer" ranks.

For now I'm a "poorsumer" :p
 
L3 CACHE AND L2 CACHE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT HERE!!! People Notice how the new DDR 1ghz powermacs arnt that much better than the last revision even thow they got DDR becuase they half 1/2 the L3 and this thing has NONE that makes it essencally a L3 and altivec is great if the program is altivec enhanced IE OS X PhtotShop and thats about it!!!! Its not some miracle thing most of it is hype the G5 wasent even supposed to have Altivec(the motorola one)

so ur paying 500 extra base prise for 10 gig bigger hard drive bring that up to 550.
Bluetooth-go by adapter thats half the size of a stick of gum www.linksys.com if its that important to you... Airport Extreme...USELESS
Fake DRR... Allright but doesent do much with out the L3 and fsb still being 133 and w WORSE video Card..........I dont know what apple was thinking... now the 17inch that machine should FLY!!! anyone here remember how cripled the RevB powerbooks where without the L3 my friend has one and my ibook was faster than it in alot of things (given i had more ram) but i payed less than him... hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm and the new G3 chips are alot better than the ones in my comp.......i dont see anything thats worth 500????

ahh that 100 dollars that apple takes off isent really worth much its worth less than the tax so in most cases its cheep to by it from macmall or clubmac or general cybernetics or somewhere....but wait they dont ahve them in yet and wont for a while......
 
Finally, here are some REAL benchmarks

Bare Feats was able to sneak some comparative Benchmarks at Macworld of the new 12" and 17" Books. YOu will notice that, indeed, the little 12" PB does not do that well and, in some areas is beat out by the iBook. Guess that L3 Cache(or lack of) and slower graphics chip does matter after all. Here is the link:

http://www.barefeats.com/pb17.html

Tariq
 
First of all, the Radeon 7500 graphics card is faster than the GeForce4 Go 420 and even the GeForce4 Go 440 according to www.tomshardware.com. But there are two main differences between the iBook and the 12" Powerbook: 32mb DDR memory in the Powerbook and 4x AGP instead of 2x. Presumably, this would be why the 12" performed better on the OpenGL test, but would not explain why it didn't perform better on the Quartz Extreme test. However, these are only benchmarks and do not have a lot to do with day-to-day use of the computers.

Jaguar is using the Altivec instructions in many parts of the OS to increase functionality and overall snappiness of the computer. Altivec is becoming more important, not less-important in the future of Apple computers and the OS. And the G5 WAS suppose to have the Altivec, but Motorola was having problems with it... the clockspeeds and overall performace of the G5 was fine... it was crashes and unstability of the Altivec that was delaying progress on that chip. Most likely, it is the same problem that Motorola has with the G4 and the clock speeds. Although IBM has said that the 970 has "compatible" instruction sets as the Altivec, they are by no means saying that it is identical to Motorolas. In fact, IBM could be downclocking or having a separate chip to handle the Altivec instructions and not letting it limit the speed and production of the 970 core. It might be that the 900mhz bus would be an internal connection between these two elements... there are too many unknowns.

However, to talk about the value of the AiBook compared to the iBook... http://macspeedzone.com has benchmarks comparing the 800mhz iBook and the Powerbook 15" 867. Summing all of the results together, there is 137.4% increase in overall performance between these two machines... some of it has to do with bus and other features, but the 12" is almost identical in every way to the 15" except for the L3 cache and the video card. There is an 108.4% increase in speed just in pure mhz alone not counting any other factors. I would estimate that the 12" Powerbook would rank approximately 122.9% -- an average between the two.

lmalave was not taking into account the difference in the processor speed... just assuming that they were equal. They are not. Even though the iBook has the 512k cache instead of the 256k cache, the 12" Powerbook has DDR cache instead... so that cancels out the other (effective performace). Also, the cache would be running slightly faster on the 12" Powerbook (108.4%). Because this is on-die cache, it would not be the "fake" DDR that the main-board memory MIGHT be, so it would have 216.8% increase in access to the cache than the 800mhz iBook.

Back up to that estimated figure of 122.9%... if you multiply the value of the iBook -- $1299 by the increase in performance of the processor you get $1596.47 instead. The other new features including the DDR and faster bus speed will more than make up the difference between the two machines.

For me -- I'm getting the one with the Superdrive.
 
One more thing I wanted to add -- Look at the difference in the memory test performed by http://www.barefeats.com with Xbench...

Everyone of the Powerbook computers were nearly or over twice as fast as the iBook. These benchmarks do not show a good representation of normal performance, but this result shows that any application on the Powerbook 12" will have nearly 2x faster responsiness to the memory.

Applications like Photoshop will increase also because of the G4 processor, but other applications that more than average memory hogs would really benefit. I would suspect that iMovie and iPhoto would have significant improvements in their speed compared to the iBook. No doubt applications like Lightwave or other 3D modeling applications will benefit from the increased memory bandwidth.

I am a graphic artist, and memory and large files are everyday things for me. I bought a 12" iBook from Fry's but returned it when I found out about this new machine, and what I have heard about the 12" Powerbook from a friend of mine that has been able to test several major apps including... Maya, Shake, Combustion, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects... and they all work great.

I was debating back and forth between the two for quite a while, but now I am satisfied an about to place my order.
 

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Originally posted by nighthawk
Back up to that estimated figure of 122.9%... if you multiply the value of the iBook -- $1299 by the increase in performance of the processor you get $1596.47 instead. The other new features including the DDR and faster bus speed will more than make up the difference between the two machines.
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Your logic makes little sense to me. So price should be in proportion to performance benchmarks? Since when is that the case in the computer industry? It isn't, because of the economic principle of diminishing marginal utility. Twice the performance is NOT twice the utility. That's why the iBook is a great machine - because I don't need more than an 800MHz G3. I really could care less about additional CPU - in fact I'll give it a negative marginal utility because it would make my machine run hotter.
 
At the end of the day the market will set the price based on the product's percieved worth. Differnet thigns matter to differnt people. Some people wnat an ibook as an oversized pda they can do work processing, e-mail and chat on that is durable as hell and portable and thus don't give two ****s about DDR. People want a 12" powerbook becase it gives them portable power to do some powerful work on thus processor and memory bandwidth are everything.. Personally i'm getting a 17" becase i want a desktop replacement that lets my work move with me.
 
Originally posted by lmalave


Your logic makes little sense to me. So price should be in proportion to performance benchmarks? Since when is that the case in the computer industry? It isn't, because of the economic principle of diminishing marginal utility. Twice the performance is NOT twice the utility. That's why the iBook is a great machine - because I don't need more than an 800MHz G3. I really could care less about additional CPU - in fact I'll give it a negative marginal utility because it would make my machine run hotter.
Click to expand...

In the case of notebook computers, yes, performace would directly affect the value of the notebook. There are no known upgrades for the old iBooks, even though they were around the same time that the Pismos were (which have upgrades). Even upgrading an iMac is very hard and you have very few options, but a pro machine is not hard to upgrade. If on average the Powerbook 12" is 122.9% faster in all of the tasks that I would do compared to the iBook, then yes, it is a higher value to me.

As far as the machine running hot, we haven't heard anything about that yet.
 
how's this...

I cancelled my order for the 12" powerbook, simply because we can argue all we want, but until someone can sit down and compare the two using a variety of programs. I'll stick with my PC for now, and just hang until the debate settles before I choose between the ibook or the 12"pb
 
Originally posted by t^3
Anybody know if these PB's have the new G4 (7457) that actually takes advantage of the DDR RAM, unlike the current PowerMacs?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately not, as the L2 size listed in the specs is 256k. The 7457 will boost a 512k L2 and will be made on a .13 process (vs. a old .18 for the actual G4), which means nearly half the die size and half the power dissipation at a given frequency.

Frankly, knowing how hot run an iBook600, the 12' PB is probably going to be more useful as a toaster than computing device. :)
 
Re: Re: Re: New 12 Inch Ibook

Originally posted by lmalave


How is the AluBook more "bang for the buck". Other than the built-in Bluetooth I don't really see getting more value from an AluBook than what I currently have. I agree that the $900 price difference sounds waaaaay out of whack, though - the price difference is essentially the $500 difference in base price. So what are you getting for that $500?

iBook still rules!
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A G4 is a large improvement. Dont forget DDR video ram too. Base price yes $500 but the $999 ibook isnt really a machine for anyone other then the super average consumer. The person who buys that machine will not be playing games other then snood and pop pop. I wouldnt really compare the base prices. I would compare the superdrive AlBook to the high end 14.1" book. Plus people want more power in a 12" machine rather then getting that power in a awkward 14""
 
Originally posted by blueBomber
how's this...

I cancelled my order for the 12" powerbook, simply because we can argue all we want, but until someone can sit down and compare the two using a variety of programs. I'll stick with my PC for now, and just hang until the debate settles before I choose between the ibook or the 12"pb
Click to expand...
I wouldnt really take to much faith in what anyone else says but by acualy trying the machine youll be able to make the decision. Basicaly dont look to much into the benchmarks or what i say or someone else says. Goto apple store, try one doing the things that yud normally do (ie webbrowse, email) see if it fits your needs and make a decision.
 
I plan on the 17" to replace my G4/500 AND Pismo. It has as much or more screen real estate than my huge 21" CRT. And with moderate portability, will be good for production work. I just tried a bench test on my G4, and it looks like the 17" runs about 2.5 times faster overall. That upgrade will be worth it.

My friend made a comment about the keyboard being set back quite a bit from the front and wondered if it would still be comfortable to type with as opposed to the 12" whose keyboard goes right to the edge. Otherwise, it's a nice system.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: New 12 Inch Ibook

Originally posted by NitroPye


Base price yes $500 but the $999 ibook isnt really a machine for anyone other then the super average consumer. The person who buys that machine will not be playing games other then snood and pop pop.
Click to expand...

Thank you for making my argument for me. I wholeheartedly agree, for the "super average consumer" the $999 iBook is enough. But, um, wouldn't the vast majority of consumers be "average"? So for the vast majority of consumers (including myself), spending money on a more expensive computer that has features they don't even need is basically just throwing money away.
 
Fickle sounds in here!

First off I've heard or rather read nothing but hoping for more Video Ram for the TiBook, or SuperDrive within or hoping for FireWire 800 inside or faster DDR Ram. Well we got it all inside albiet for different configurations. Even myself wanted more.

I'm now satisfied that I can justify buying not just an iBook G3 @800Mhz for my daughter & girlfriend to use but also, A 12.1" PowerBook G4@867Mhz. Yes I wished it had L3 cache even at half or 1/4 speed (I have a question about L3 cache, is L3 cache running on the backside bus speed or on the full system bus speed????), but I'm ok. Why?? I'll tell you.

Didnt anyone notice the HardDisk Drive interface of the 12.1" and the 17.1" PowerBooks???? Ultra ATA/100!!!! Yes I'm aware that the HDD runs at only 4200Rpm but IBM is coming out later this summer of a 5400/7200RPM Ultra ATA/100 laptop drive!!!! No longer does the hard-drive half to run at a hurting hickup speed......I used to own a Compaq E500 laptop with 12GB HDD at 4200RPM with the ATA/66 interface. Faster HDD speed faster data gets to the Memory(DDR SDRAM) and the faster the CPU gets it and the faster you can interact with it. Sorry 15.1/15.2" TiBook users

I'm still currently watching the webcast albeit late but wanted to know what is the 12.1" case made of??? Aluminum like the 17"?? or Polycarbonate like the iBook?? Also like the AGP 4x graphics

Now what I'm hoping for is this: Is the PowerPC G4 CPU upgradeable on the 12.1" like the old Bronze PowerBook G3's???? Can someone look into this????

I think we'll see the PowerMacs have 8xAGP if ATi can get the Radeon 9700Pro over to Apple since its 8x AGP already!
 
Storage to go
The hard drive in the 12-inch PowerBook is rubber-mounted to a magnesium frame to provide an impact-resistant buffer to safeguard your data. And with capacities up to 60GB, there is more than enough space for all your files, MP3s, movies and more.



humm Ruuber-mounted, magnesium frame. this sounds even more like a ibook with a g4!!!!!!! humm The size of it would also put it at the same size as the ibook with out the plexiglass cover....humm hummmmmmmm mesa thinks this is a ibook in disguise with a g4 in it and cost alot more..

Ata/100 wont make that much of a difference in a laptop laptops can barley use the ATA/66 in there maybe the new 7200 rpm drives can but those suckers should drain BATTERY.......
 
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this in any of the theads but I'm interested in the fact that the new PBs still only have one button on the trackpad... Guess those Apple multi-button mouse rumours should be put on hold. Oh well. I thought Apple would use new 2003 'pro' machines to debut this.
 
For those who, like me, crave screen real estate, particularly in laptops, and what to compare:

PowerBook 12" 1024x768 = 0.79 Mpx, 106.7 ppi
PowerBook 15" 1152x768 = 0.88 Mpx, 92.3 ppi
PowerBook 15" 1280x854 = 1.09 Mpx, 102.6 ppi
PowerBook 17" 1440x900 = 1.30 Mpx, 99.9 ppi
15" Studio Display 1024x768 = 0.79 Mpx, 85.3 ppi
17" Studio Display 1280x1024 = 1.31 Mpx, 96.4 ppi
22" Cinema Display 1600x1024 = 1.64 Mpx, 86.3 ppi
23" Cinema HD 1920x1200 = 2.30 Mpx, 98.4 ppi

(Mpx = megapixels, ppi = pixels per inch)

Given Mac OS X's typically larger font sizes, menu and other controls. I prefer the denser displays in the PowerBook 12" (106.7 ppi) & newer PowerBook 15" (102.6 ppi). I wonder if Apple would ever try to fit more pixels in the PowerBook 17" at some later date, say:

PowerBook 17" 1536x960 = 1.47 Mpx, 106.5 ppi

Would be lovely, wouldn't it?
 
Apple still hasn't implemented full-sized "inverted T" arrow keys. I find the PowerBook's half-sized ones a bit tough for my fingers to home to.

Though, I'm guessing they'd rather keep the PowerBook's clean straight line across the bottom edge of the keyboard.
 
Originally posted by Huked on Fonick


Uh where you getting that??

12 inch 100 off
12 inch with superdrive 110 off
15 inch combo 100 off
15 inch super drive 150 off
17 inch 150 off... i dont see 300 there???

ADC?? but thats trickey and u only get 1 purchace a lifetime and u gona prove that your takeing a development corse....??

ADC PRICES

12 inch 360 off
12 inch with superdrive 400 off
15 inch combo 460 off
15 inch super drive 560 off
17 inch 660 off...

Humm thats more than 300?? are u talking about ADC prices??? cuz thats a little more than the education store and i think apple checks up on ADC orders oh yea add 100 to those orders cuz u gota by the ADC Plan- student ADC=99 dollars...

Edit- Added ADC Prices
Click to expand...


http://store.apple.com/1-800-800-AP...1AqGTCAM/2.3.0.3.27.33.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?100,83


When I log in with my school selected this what I see:



$1,499.00

12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4

256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/100
Combo Drive
NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
32MB DDR video memory
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth built-in
VGA & S-Video out
Discounted from $1,799 retail price








$1,679.00

12.1-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4

256MB DDR266 SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/100
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go
32MB DDR video memory
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Extreme Ready
Bluetooth built-in
VGA & S-Video out
Discounted from $1,999 retail price








$1,999.00

15.2-inch TFT Display
1280x854 resolution
867MHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
256MB SDRAM
40GB Ultra ATA/66
Combo Drive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9000
32MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort Ready
Bluetooth optional
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $2,299 retail price








$2,499.00

15.2-inch TFT Display
1280x854 resolution
1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
512MB SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/66
SuperDrive
ATI Mobility Radeon 9000
64MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400

AirPort built-in
Bluetooth optional
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $2,799 retail price








$2,999.00

17-inch TFT Display
1440x900 resolution
1GHz PowerPC G4
1MB L3 cache
512MB DDR333 SDRAM
60GB Ultra ATA/100
SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go
64MB DDR video memory
Gigabit Ethernet
FireWire 400
FireWire 800
AirPort Extreme built-in
Bluetooth built-in
DVI & S-Video out
Discounted from $3,299 retail price
 
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