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Which connector is your new unibody Macbook pro

  • Sata I - 1.5Gbit

    Votes: 218 69.6%
  • Sata II - 3.0Gbit

    Votes: 95 30.4%

  • Total voters
    313
One thing I noticed after posting the OCZ Vertex SSD data showing a 50% hit in throughput on sequential read/write drive benchmarks is many people think that because there is no I/O (FW800/GigE/USB2/ No eSATA) on the new 13"/15" Macbook Pro that exceeds ~90MB/sec, that the SATA 1.5 won't make a difference.

Granted, even with a fast SSD, average users may not notice too much of a hit because the greatest performance boosting aspect of an SSD is the random read performance. So the interface and applications should feel faster.

However, power users (the kind who spend $500+ on a good SSD) who are going to use the laptop as a desktop replacement and work with large files are certainly going to notice. When you are working with large amounts of data (whether large PSDs, video files, data sets, etc) the laptop's storage system is going to be maxed out loading data in and out of RAM and constantly shuffling the page file. Especially since 4GB DDR3 DIMMS are so expensive, the MB Pro will mostly be maxed out at 4GB (2x2GB) for most people.

The data from the OCZ Vertex test showed a reduction in sequential read speeds from over 220MB/sec to ~115 MB/sec. You can forget about using the MB Pro for editing high-bitrate and HD video files with such a constrained storage system.

Anyways, it is still to early and we don't have enough real-world data to see what the effects are going to be. In the meantime, I'm sure the Apple apologists will continue their defend-Apple-to-the-death distractions and excuses. The bottom line is that this IS a legitimate issue, and will have a serious impact on performance for those who are used to maxing out machines and need all the speed they can get.
 
I emailed sjobs@apple.com the other day and a representative just called me up and said they're aware of the problem and that Apple would probably be issuing an answer soon.

That's good news! Did they hint that the problem would be solved? If they worded it as a "problem" it pretty much guarantees they'll be fixing it. :)
 
That's good news! Did they hint that the problem would be solved? If they worded it as a "problem" it pretty much guarantees they'll be fixing it. :)

sadly no. He couldn't give me an answer himself so I said "but will apple probably release an answer soon?" and he said "oh for sure" and something about them being aware of the issue

and while I was reiterating the problem he was like "right, right" as if he had probably heard the problem before and knew what i meant
 
I tried downgrading to 10.5.6 and even tried using 10.5.7 from Apple's website.

It won't let me install either one, telling me the computer doesn't meet specifications..

Does anyone have a Leopard CD that DIDN't come with their MBP? It would interesting to test out...
 
No, please don't take my question out of context. The question I have is what real-world scenario is shown that this so-called downgrade is effectively hamstringing anyone's productivity?

I'm not sure how all the coverage is going to explain what you are clearly guessing at (Apple having craniums in rectums, machine "hamstringing", and for price/battery).

Still don't have an answer to anyone who's maxing out this bus. Please let us know your real-world experience with this downgraded controller?
 
I tried downgrading to 10.5.6 and even tried using 10.5.7 from Apple's website.

It won't let me install either one, telling me the computer doesn't meet specifications..

Does anyone have a Leopard CD that DIDN't come with their MBP? It would interesting to test out...

That won't work:

x-virge said:
[kb] Don't install a version of Mac OS X earlier than what came with your Mac

[kb] What's a "computer-specific Mac OS X release"?

[kb] Mac OS X versions (builds) included with Intel-based Macs

Let's say this happens:

General build of 10.5.5 is released. People rejoice and upgrade. The build that ships is 9F33.

New hardware is released. This hardware also ships with "10.5.5", but it has a bunch of extra drivers for the new hardware. This build is then called 9F2088.

At this point in time, if you were to try to run 9F33 on the new hardware, it wouldn't work. This is where people get the idea that you can't bring Mac OS X across hardware revisions.

Then 10.5.6 is released. This build is 9G55 and should include everything that 9F33 had *and* the extra drivers for the new hardware in 9F2088.

Now as long as you use 10.5.6 and your Mac's drivers shipped with a build released *before* 10.5.6, you should be able to take that installation across computers just fine.
 
Says who? What's your engineering background? The fundamentals are exactly the same.

I'm not the OP, but your reasoning is flawed. You are correct that a SATA3 controller running at twice the frequency will use more power if they are made on the same process technology, but its of no consequence.
I don't know any specifics, but based on total chipset power consumption, there is no way that the SATA controller logic uses much power at all, and power savings from downgrading to SATA I would be negligible compared to overall power consumption. There are a million better ways to lower power consumption without dramatically affecting performance.

Additionally, if it served any real purpose -- power usage or not --- Apple would have done the same thing to all the notebooks based on the Nvidia 9400/MCP7 chipset. Yet, both The 13" Macbook and the Macbook Air don't have the SATA I issue.


do you have evidence that its not evident....no....so then you use logic.

argumentum ad ignorantiam...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
 
If it is firmware and not drivers then perhaps someone can compile a grub.efi module to set the 9400 to switch to 3 Gbit/s and boot it to see what happens ? Any linux hackers here ?

If it is firmware, I suspect Apple would do an EFI update soonish. If not ... perhaps they'll fix later revisions. At this point we just don't know enough. Time for Apple to step in and clear everything up.

I'm really waiting to buy the new 13" ... the faster CPUs, updated screen and FireWire port make it so much better than the old 13" :)
 
I tried downgrading to 10.5.6 and even tried using 10.5.7 from Apple's website.

It won't let me install either one, telling me the computer doesn't meet specifications..

Does anyone have a Leopard CD that DIDN't come with their MBP? It would interesting to test out...


If you downgrade your mbp won't recognize your fw, sd slot, & any other hardware that is in the new build
 
Below is a table from Intel's ICH8 Thermal design guide. The 9400m uses a smaller process but what is of interest to us is the difference in power consumption between 4 and 6 SATA 3.0 Gbit devices. It's 3.3W - 3.7W ... :eek:
While that's very interesting, it has absolutely nothing to do with the power required to operate the bus itself. In all of the examples you listed, the SATA bus is running at 3.0gbps. The number of devices attached is inconsequential in terms of the overhead required to power the bus itself. Aside from a little extra signaling and bus overhead, the number of attached devices is mostly irrelevant.
That's right. An additional 2 SATA 3.0 Gbit/s devices caused an additional draw of 0.4W. Now extrapolate that with knownikko's spouting of square law and everyone can draw their own conclusions for power consumption for 1.5 Gbit/s devices and the difference.
What conclusions are there to be drawn when your example provides no data at all on the chipset operating at the slower speed? Overall power savings for this single design change may be small, on the order of 1W or less, but if it's one piece of an overall efficiency campaign, they start to add up quickly.

This seems at the very least plausible to me given that the improved battery life these machines are exhibiting seems to be far surpassing what can be explained through the increased capacity of the batteries alone.

Sometimes knownikko it is better to keep quiet and let people merely suspect that you're not the sharpest tool than flaunt your "knowledge" and remove all doubt of it
Couldn't agree more. When you have some data relevant to the discussion at hand, I'll be here waiting.

An interesting aside, the wikipedia article on SATA specifically lists one of the potential pitfalls to the next generation 6.0gbps SATA interface is "higher power consumption for supporting chips, factors that new process technologies and power management techniques are expected to mitigate".


But you're right... I'm sure it's 100% completely inconsequential. :rolleyes:
 
At last view, I count 1072 posts in this thread from people who have been affected by this problem
Really? So their new macs suddenly lurched to a screeching halt because of this? All at the same time? Amazing...

I won't deny that a few egos have been bruised and maybe some feelings have been hurt because beloved Apple scorned them though. :D
 
I tried downgrading to 10.5.6 and even tried using 10.5.7 from Apple's website.

It won't let me install either one, telling me the computer doesn't meet specifications..

Does anyone have a Leopard CD that DIDN't come with their MBP? It would interesting to test out...

I installed retail 10.5.6 and updated to 10.5.7 and it installed without issue on my 13" MBP 2.53.. the sata readings didn't change.
 
Still don't have an answer to anyone who's maxing out this bus. Please let us know your real-world experience with this downgraded controller?

I have the new 13", I've installed the X25M. Please explain how I prove what you want to know? Can only prove it IF :apple: releases my same machine at 3.0
 
Does anyone else think it's weird that Apple hasn't commented on this yet? With the speed at which this story is spreading, every moment's delay will cost them significant amounts of money, especially if they can just announce that an upcoming firmware upgrade will fix the issue.

I think that is the point. If this was just a firmware issue then we would have heard from them. But they don't redesign a laptop and limit the bus speed of the sata port just to save a fraction of a watt. There is something else going on and I suspect a firmware update won't solve it(just my guess).

I still have not heard back from Apple support over this issue. I escalated the problem to an engineer and nobody has gotten back to me. I will call them tomorrow to find out why.
 
I think that is the point. If this was just a firmware issue then we would have heard from them. But they don't redesign a laptop and limit the bus speed of the sata port just to save a fraction of a watt. There is something else going on and I suspect a firmware update won't solve it(just my guess).

This came out over the weekend.

Having dealt with Apple engineering on these sorts of hardware issues, it could take two-three weeks to get a response, if not longer. Be patient.
 
I still have not heard back from Apple support over this issue. I escalated the problem to an engineer and nobody has gotten back to me. I will call them tomorrow to find out why.

Mine was escalated to engineering as well. I got a call back today from Apple but of course I was at work and the only message they left was to call back. Arrrggh.
 
From Gizmodo:

UPDATE: Hubert from UberGizmo, a guy who knows his Nvidia hardware, sees a software issue at most:


First of all, I believe that NVIDIA has never produced a single GeForce 9400M motherboard chipset (aka ION) that doesn't handle SATA-2 (3Gbps). And even if they did, it would not really save a buck on the chip, as long as the chip size is identical. Most importantly, a 1.5 Gbps SATA-I Geforce 9400M chipset does not exist, as far as I know.
Then what happened? We're not sure, but consider these scenarios: what if some computer shipped with a SATA-I disk? What if 1.5Gbps consumes less power? Because the hardware supports SATA-II, there is a slight chance that this can be updated in the future. We'll be waiting for an official statement from Apple.

Let's just make sure Apple releases firmware for this.
 
This came out over the weekend.

Having dealt with Apple engineering on these sorts of hardware issues, it could take two-three weeks to get a response, if not longer. Be patient.

I hope we get an answer really soon...I'm supposed to get my uMBP this week and i don't want to open it if I'm gonna return it...it's gonna be hard to just look at the box without being able to use it.
 
Maybe it's just hardware profile reporter glitch? Not sure if anyone notice this, under Disk Utility, both HDD and DVD reported as Connection Bus: SATA 2. But then again, this does not explain disk performance drop from people who have tested.
 
Maybe it's just hardware profile reporter glitch? Not sure if anyone notice this, under Disk Utility, both HDD and DVD reported as Connection Bus: SATA 2. But then again, this does not explain disk performance drop from people who have tested.
Uhh, this dude is right. Screen shot of my disk utility (on a 13" uMBP) attached.
 

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Maybe it's just hardware profile reporter glitch? Not sure if anyone notice this, under Disk Utility, both HDD and DVD reported as Connection Bus: SATA 2. But then again, this does not explain disk performance drop from people who have tested.

Would that explain why the SSD speeds are only limited to SATA I speeds (not being sarcastic, I have no idea what the answer is)?
 
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