2 SSD's in the 2nd optical bay on 2009 Pro?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by 2002cbr600f4i, Aug 3, 2009.

  1. 2002cbr600f4i macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    #1
    Ok, I haven't really dug around much inside my 2009 Pro. I currently have Hd's in all 4 3.5" drive bays, but I only have the single optical bay filled.

    I was wondering, since I've seen people talk about a 2 SSD into 1 Optical bay bracket, can you run 2 SSD's off that single bay in the 2009? Where are you getting the 2nd SATA connector into that bay?

    Basically what I'd like to have is:

    Optical
    SSD1, SSD2
    HD1
    HD2
    HD3
    HD4

    Do-able? And can the SSD's be bootable in that sort of setup?
     
  2. gugucom macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    May 21, 2009
    Location:
    Munich, Germany
    #2
    No, you will not be able to do it that way unless you fit an adapter with RAID0 controller. That will slow down the SSDs for the known offerings in the market. You will probably be better of by fitting a SATA card.
     
  3. geoffreak macrumors 68020

    geoffreak

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2008
    #3
    Don't bother. You will only have 1 free SATA port. You can use SATA splitters that allow two drives to connect, but each drive gets half the bandwidth, defeating the purpose of a SSD.

    A SATA card will let you use the full speed though.

    I haven't heard of an adapter to allow 2x 2.5" drives in the optical bay though.
     
  4. 2002cbr600f4i thread starter macrumors 6502

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    Jun 21, 2008
    #4
    Ooooh... Ok, so what about something like THIS along with a 4 port SATA PCI-E card?

    [​IMG]

    And again, question is, can I boot off them? I don't know how that works here in the Mac world... I know that with add-in controller cards on PC's its usually doable without too much trouble.

    Any recommendations on PCI-E 4 port SATA controllers that work well on the 2009 Pro? (Bonus points if it has eSATA as well...)
     
  5. JesterJJZ macrumors 68020

    JesterJJZ

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    Jul 21, 2004
  6. UltraNEO* macrumors 601

    UltraNEO*

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    Jun 16, 2007
    Location:
    近畿日本
    #6
    Well... This device originally came out for the PC market but it works fine on our Macs, with the 2006/2008 MP the internal layout is somewhat more flexible when compared to the current MP, mainly because the four standard drives was connected via an iPass connector. Thus various users on here would detach this cable from the logic board, then reattach it to an after-market RAID controller. To populate the above device/housing and give it access to the system, one would use a iPass breakout cable giving users the ability to install 8HD's + 1 Optical.
     
  7. nanofrog macrumors G4

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    #8
    One of the handiest internal cables I've ever used for drives. :) I like the metal locking tabs to hold it in place, and it can make for a cleaner installation if it's not too long. :D
     
  8. Data-Base macrumors member

    Data-Base

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Location:
    Norway
    #9
    That is a very nice solution :) where I can get in in Europe (Scandinavia)

    now I have an important question!
    I have early 2008 Mac Pro with apple Raid Card having 4 WD Raptors Raid 0
    I have all my files backed-up with TimeMachine to a 1TB Firewire Disk

    but my system dose not work with windows/Linux (because of Apple's RAID Card)

    so I need to have more HDDs so windows/Ubuntu will be able to see them

    I know there is SATA connectors on the Mac Pro's MB, but if I boot Ubuntu Live CD or use Windows CD they do not see the HDDs that is attached to these ports!



    is it possible to buy an iPass cable and connect to the Apple's MB (in the place where the 4 HDDs used to connected before moving it to Apple's Raid card)

    is Windows/Ubuntu recognize HDDs that are connected to the MB's iPass connection?



    cheers
     
  9. UltraNEO* macrumors 601

    UltraNEO*

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    近畿日本
    #10
    Your best bet is to use google and search, mate.
     
  10. Data-Base macrumors member

    Data-Base

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    Apr 5, 2009
    Location:
    Norway
    #11
    wow that was hard, G thanks mate you saved me!

    no seriously, do you think I did not try!
    I just hoped that some one "maybe" knows some good shop.


    any way, thanks ;-)
     
  11. gugucom macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    May 21, 2009
    Location:
    Munich, Germany
    #12
    I bought mine from an online shop in Holland.

    http://www.webconnexxion.com/raid/product_info.php?cPath=82_145&products_id=652

    I have 3 SSDs in it and will add a fourth soon.

    Two of those are connected to an Areca 1210 RAID card to run a RAID0 array for Windows Vista64. The Vista array is not running yet. I'm having some software problems there.

    Two other SSDs are connected to on board SATA ports and OS X SW RAID0 for OS X. Of those SSDs one sits in the Addonics enclosure and is connected to the 2nd ODD-SATA port. The other currently sits in the HDD port #4. I lack a 22-pin male to male adapter which would allow me to run a SATA cable off it to the ODD bay and put the fourth SSD also into the enclosure. I'm struggling to find something fitting.
     
  12. nanofrog macrumors G4

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    #13
    Just search for 4x 2.5" backplane, and what you want should turn up. I'm not sure about the best locations available to you, but here's a model offered on span.com (NOT the best one to use though, as it uses a different cable; SFF-8484).

    I'm sure you can find it much closer to home (faster & cheaper shipping), but some US based sources do ship internationally if need be. One such example. :)

    Yes, the cable exists. Here's an example (SFF-8087 - 4i*7 pin SATA).

    And they will be recognized. The ODD_SATA ports you tried need AHCI drivers to work, otherwise they're invisible to Windows and Linux as you found out. Using the cable you're after is much easier, and work without problems from what I've seen or heard from forum members that have done it. :)

    Hopefully, this should help a bit. ;)
     
  13. Data-Base macrumors member

    Data-Base

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    Apr 5, 2009
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    Norway
    #14
  14. gugucom macrumors 68020

    gugucom

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Location:
    Munich, Germany
    #15
    I'm still a bit in the dark about SATA cables and connectors myself.What I would love is a cable that has three combined Power and data HDD ports as in the 2006 Mac Pro and one with a standard SATA data cable on the end. I would run that into my Addonics and have a perfect solution. But I suspect that such things are not readily made.
     
  15. Capt. Corduroy macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Location:
    la
    #16
    I've been looking at this Patriot Convoy XL. Does built-in 2.5" RAID. Might make for a nice boot drive in my Mac Pro 2009

    [​IMG]
     
  16. VirtualRain macrumors 603

    VirtualRain

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    Aug 1, 2008
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    #17
    That appears to share a single SATA connection... which will throttle your performance.
     
  17. nanofrog macrumors G4

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    #18
    NP. :)

    Yes, the SFF-8087 end is what plugs into the logic board, or properly equiped RAID or HBA cards. The other end/s are also to be specified though, as it can come in multiple combinations, such as an SFF-8088 (external version of the SFF-8087), SFF-8470, 4*eSATA, 4*internal SATA, and a few others.

    That's the one you need for what you want to do. :)

    Unfortunately, those don't exist. You could get it made as a custom, but the minimum quantity would scare you. :p

    That uses a single eSATA port, and a Port Multiplier chip. At best, the total throughput is only 250MB/s, so you would definitely be throttled if you want to use it with SSD's. For mechanical drives, it's fine.
     
  18. Capt. Corduroy macrumors newbie

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    Aug 19, 2009
    Location:
    la
    #19
    Errmm. Good point. Might be tasty for two Caviars Blacks.
     
  19. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    May 6, 2008
    #20
    That model is for 2.5" drives, so the Caviar Blacks wouldn't fit. :eek: :p

    But there's 3.5" models that would. :)
     
  20. Capt. Corduroy macrumors newbie

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    Aug 19, 2009
    Location:
    la
    #21
    Scorpio Blacks. You know what I mean. :)

    Although...

    Are there any any similar enclosures for two 3.5" drives to go in an optical bay? I've actually been looking at RAID port multipliers, but I wouldn't want to have a jacked up hacky bay with one of those just stuffed in there.
     
  21. nanofrog macrumors G4

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    #22
    Actually, NO. :eek: I thought of Caviar Black when I saw your post. :p

    No, a 2x 3.5" backplane doesn't exist. The ones made use 3x 5.25" bays, and hold 4 or 5 drives. Obviously those won't fit. :(

    You could take an old optical drive apart, and use one of the metal shell parts as a mount. It may not be pretty, but it's cheap, and it works, assuming you can drill a few holes and work a screwdriver. :p
     
  22. gugucom macrumors 68020

    gugucom

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    May 21, 2009
    Location:
    Munich, Germany
    #23
    For those who consider to use a RAID card to build an array in Windows please be warned that it is not a trivial issue.

    Until now I had a very easy life with my backups by using GUID partition tabled disks only. That applied to OS X and Windows. Unfortunately all SATA cards that I have used so far keep the native Windows partition table MBR which is a mega PITA in my view.

    There is no cloning across different partition tables. GUID cloning works with Winclone, which is free and is extremely easy to use. It is also very efficient.

    MBR cloning works with Acronis which is bloated and costs money. The logistics of maintaining different drives with incompatible partition tables are as pleasant as having someone piss into your beer. If I had known what I was in for I had never attempted it.

    I had a perfectly good Windows drive with high performance AHCI SATA driver, all devices properly fitted with drivers to Bootcamp 3.0 level. All updates done and all the apps and utilities loaded which you already have in OS X but need in Windows and all that on Vista 64. Just to do this RAID thing I had to start from scratch to install Windows on a single MBR partitioned drive. Did all the updates, all the drivers, all the apps again, configure the blimming thing so that I can actually work with it. The master boot record patching and registry editing for AHCI drivers took me 3 hours alone allthough I had it done only some months ago.

    Now I have to figure out how to clone my single MBR partition tabled drive to my RAID0 array. My first attemp went wrong. I managed to clone the thing but it isn't running. The partition is active but it isn't shown as the system drive.

    How the hack do I get the cloned drive to actually boot?
     
  23. nanofrog macrumors G4

    Joined:
    May 6, 2008
    #24
    It comes back to how the GUID was done on each OS. It's not the same, and why they're not compatible, not just the filesystem. (Windows GUID /= OS X GUID. This is what I was talking about with the offsets).

    You've been working with the low level areas, and that's where they seem to be mortal enemies. :p If you keep to the higher level (file systems), you can get them to work with one another, albiet via a 3rd party application for full access (read + write).

    I don't know what it costs there, but I managed to find it for $30USD. Cheap for paid software that actually works these days. :rolleyes: ;)

    It does do a neat trick though, and you may not have tried it. Instead of a clone, just make a full backup of the Windows installation with Acronis (it makes a copy of the MBR, unless you elect not to. Don't do that). Burn the boot disk for Acronis. You can then reinstall that backup to a clean disk/array using the Acronis boot disk you just burned. I've done this, and it works for both Windows and Linux, as it can read/write the different file systems. IIRC, it does work on the trial version of the software. I know for certain it does for me in the full version.

    This can help reduce the need for multiple disks for backups, though it must be so for clones. NAS is even better, as the file system is a non issue. Again though, clones are the exception.

    Once the array was set up under the ARC-1210 (it will be MBR), you plop in the Windows disk, and go. During installation you will have to select Load Driver, install it, select Refresh, then select the array. Format to NTFS, and proceed with the installation.

    Its no more complicated than that for a clean installation. Then you have to do the rest of the associated bits with Windows (updates & drivers).

    Could you give some specifics?

    i.e. MBR, GUID partition, what it was set up under, what's trying to access it (say an OS X clone util attempting to access a Windows disk as an example),...

    It could really help, as I'm now a little lost as to exactly what you've done on this incarnation. :confused:
     
  24. gugucom macrumors 68020

    gugucom

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Location:
    Munich, Germany
    #25
    Hi nano, sorry for sounding a bit frustrated. When I posted I was coming off a 18 hours long fight with attempting to save me the hassle of making a fresh install of Vista. I hate to do it since I have learned how easy life is in OS X when you clone it or migrate it. All this bull manure with endless key numbers, activation and endless refusals to install in an easy and reasonable way. You know I doubted that Acronis works under EFI but I have to admit it is probably the only way I can clone a copy on my RAID array as Windows refuses to install there.

    After two hours of failed attempts to get Vista to install on the array I made a fresh install on an old HD drive which was partitioned with MBR table and attached to a standard SATA port of my Mac Pro. The status of that install was full update, all drivers in BC 3.0. It was still running on legacy driver for SATA.

    I had Acronis installed and used the clone function to copy Vista from the HDD to my freshly set up RAID0 array. I had to shut down Windows and on restart it gave me a black screen with white progress bars on the cloning progress. After it finished it told me I could now jumper my HDD from slave to master which was a bit of a surprise being on SATA. But I guess its caused by the driver emulating an IDE connection.

    I took out the HDD with the working Vista and tried to boot the array. It did not work. I put the HDD back in and it booted of the HDD instead of the array. I called up Windows disk utility and saw that system disk had not transferred to the arrray.

    So you tell me that I have to use the Acronis disk and do it by a backup process? Fine tradition of making it difficult for the user. ;)

    I have now done my AHCI driver on the HDD installation. For now I will take a break to watch the F1 race in Monza. Later I will check here for some advise how to clone my Vista on the array.
     

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