2 SSD's in the 2nd optical bay on 2009 Pro?

[nanofrog]

Hi nano, sorry for sounding a bit frustrated. When I posted I was coming off a 18 hours long fight with attempting to save me the hassle of making a fresh install of Vista. I hate to do it since I have learned how easy life is in OS X when you clone it or migrate it. All this bull manure with endless key numbers, activation and endless refusals to install in an easy and reasonable way. You know I doubted that Acronis works under EFI but I have to admit it is probably the only way I can clone a copy on my RAID array as Windows refuses to install there.

No problem, I understand the frustration. Especially if you were trying to make it do something that it's not designed to do. Lot's of time and aggravation involved to discover it won't work.

I've discoverd that a clean install is actually less time in the end, as it prevents so many potential problems from occuring. Strange as that may seem.

I'd give the Acronis a shot (no problem reinstalling the trial in a new Windows install, as there's no hidden/left over garbage that prevent it from being active). It's only achiles heel, is the fact it can't deal with HSF/+ file systems. So you'd need another program to handle the OS X clones & backups, assuming you don't want to use Time Machine for the later.

The activation crap under Windows is a PITA. And no way around that one.

After two hours of failed attempts to get Vista to install on the array I made a fresh install on an old HD drive which was partitioned with MBR table and attached to a standard SATA port of my Mac Pro. The status of that install was full update, all drivers in BC 3.0. It was still running on legacy driver for SATA.

I had Acronis installed and used the clone function to copy Vista from the HDD to my freshly set up RAID0 array. I had to shut down Windows and on restart it gave me a black screen with white progress bars on the cloning progress. After it finished it told me I could now jumper my HDD from slave to master which was a bit of a surprise being on SATA. But I guess its caused by the driver emulating an IDE connection.

I took out the HDD with the working Vista and tried to boot the array. It did not work. I put the HDD back in and it booted of the HDD instead of the array. I called up Windows disk utility and saw that system disk had not transferred to the arrray.

So you tell me that I have to use the Acronis disk and do it by a backup process? Fine tradition of making it difficult for the user.

I have now done my AHCI driver on the HDD installation. For now I will take a break to watch the F1 race in Monza. Later I will check here for some advise how to clone my Vista on the array.

You're over complicating the Windows install to the array.

At this point, lets play it a little safe, with the first few steps, to make sure there's no GUID Partion Tables thet you may have forced on to the existing array. Ideally, it might even be better to do this from a PC (doing it via the firmware, not the Web interface), but let's see if you can do it in the MP first.

Under OS X, as you can't get into the firmware to do it.

1. Get into the Web Interface
2. Delete the partition
3. Recreate the partition

Get out of OS X (full shut down).

4. Begin the Windows Installation
5. When it gets to the point it shows possible drives to install on, select Load Driver, install the ARC-1210 driver.
6. Select Refresh, to make sure it will proceed with the installation once the array has been selected (highlighted & Continue has been pressed). (Some versions will give an error if you don't).
7. Proceed with installation
8. Once done, get the drivers in
9. Make sure it will boot

At this point, it should be operational, and it should really be this simple.

Assuming it will boot, then deal with the updates (saves you time, just in case something does go wrong).

If it does, get the card and drives into a PC, flash with BOOT.bin. Restart, and get into the firmware. Then delete the existing parition, and recreate it. Reflash with the EFI.bin. Shut down, and pull everything. Reinstall the hardware into the MP, and proceed directly with the Windows installation (step 4).

Hope this helps get you sorted.

nano.

 

[gugucom]

You're over complicating the Windows install to the array.

At this point, lets play it a little safe, with the first few steps, to make sure there's no GUID Partion Tables thet you may have forced on to the existing array. Ideally, it might even be better to do this from a PC (doing it via the firmware, not the Web interface), but let's see if you can do it in the MP first.

Under OS X, as you can't get into the firmware to do it.

1. Get into the Web Interface
2. Delete the partition
3. Recreate the partition

Get out of OS X (full shut down).

4. Begin the Windows Installation
5. When it gets to the point it shows possible drives to install on, select Load Driver, install the ARC-1210 driver.
6. Select Refresh, to make sure it will proceed with the installation once the array has been selected (highlighted & Continue has been pressed). (Some versions will give an error if you don't).
7. Proceed with installation
8. Once done, get the drivers in
9. Make sure it will boot

At this point, it should be operational, and it should really be this simple.

Assuming it will boot, then deal with the updates (saves you time, just in case something does go wrong).

If it does, get the card and drives into a PC, flash with BOOT.bin. Restart, and get into the firmware. Then delete the existing parition, and recreate it. Reflash with the EFI.bin. Shut down, and pull everything. Reinstall the hardware into the MP, and proceed directly with the Windows installation (step 4).

Hope this helps get you sorted.

nano.

And that is what is not working on the EFI32. If you have any experience doing this it was probably on an EFI64 machine.

Vista will not for any effort install on the array. The only way to get it to go there is by cloning.

1. try was cloning with the Acronis disk directly -> disk tells me this is not possible with the trial version

2. try was making a backup image on another MBR disk. I did that and used the Acronis disk to restore the image to the SSD array this time. The restored Vista did not start. It tells me I made a hardware change and I need to insert and boot my Vista64 Install DVD and activate repair option. I'm screwed again by EFI32 at this point because it will not boot 64-Bit Windows DVDs. To even install Vista-64 I had to strip the original DVD which included anytime upgrade multiple images with vLite down to one simple image, that EFI32 can boot. In the process I lost the repair options. Almost catch22.

There is only one option now left for me. I need to go back to vLite and try to make a version that EFI can read and keep the Repair Option.

 

[nanofrog]

And that is what is not working on the EFI32. If you have any experience doing this it was probably on an EFI64 machine.

It was. An '08 base Octad to be specific.

Vista will not for any effort install on the array. The only way to get it to go there is by cloning.

1. try was cloning with the Acronis disk directly -> disk tells me this is not possible with the trial version

2. try was making a backup image on another MBR disk. I did that and used the Acronis disk to restore the image to the SSD array this time. The restored Vista did not start. It tells me I made a hardware change and I need to insert and boot my Vista64 Install DVD and activate repair option. I'm screwed again by EFI32 at this point because it will not boot 64-Bit Windows DVDs. To even install Vista-64 I had to strip the original DVD which included anytime upgrade multiple images with vLite down to one simple image, that EFI32 can boot. In the process I lost the repair options. Almost catch22.

There is only one option now left for me. I need to go back to vLite and try to make a version that EFI can read and keep the Repair Option.

Crap. The EFI32 is killing you over this.

I hate to say it, but maybe the best solution is to get an '08 model, and sell off the '06 or retask it, and run it along side. I think this may be a good route in the long run, as you won't be left out in the cold as quickly with other hardware (i.e. graphics cards) or OS support (pure 64bit versions, w/o dual Kernels).

 

[gugucom]

I have a pair of W5590 coming but I need to find a cheap Octad for it. It will probably take some time to watch refurbished for a 2,26 Octad.

I got another thing to try. I have never tried to image from a MBR partioned disk with Winclone. Perhaps that can be done and the image can then be restored to array.

 

[nanofrog]

I have a pair of W5590 coming but I need to find a cheap Octad for it. It will probably take some time to watch refurbished for a 2,26 Octad.

I got another thing to try. I have never tried to image from a MBR partioned disk with Winclone. Perhaps that can be done and the image can then be restored to array.

A 2.26GHz Octad refurb will turn up, and may not take that long.

You'd have to deal with getting a bacplane extension cable and modding it with 2x SATA power connectors to use for the Intel SSD's (optical bay cable to provide the power). The ARC-1210 would be able to work in that system.

You can give it a shot (Winclone), but the EFI in the Areca would be 64bit (actually written for Itanium processor boards, not Apple, but Intel developed it for both I think, & Apple modded it to tie the OS to the system). It must be down to the different widths causing the issues that can't be worked around.

If I had to guess, Areca used an '08 model for testing.

 

[nanofrog]

Take a look at this. I've only given it a quick glance, but it is operational for EFI32, and is what you really needed from the beginning for the '06 model.

I know it's Highpoint, but it's the only EFI32 capable card I've ever seen.

You can stuff the ARC-1210 in the '09 Octad when you get it, and perhaps use one of these in the '06, if you need it. Otherwise, I'd say skip this one, and just place the Areca in the new system when you get it up and running.

 

[gugucom]

Take a look at this. I've only given it a quick glance, but it is operational for EFI32, and is what you really needed from the beginning for the '06 model.

I know it's Highpoint, but it's the only EFI32 capable card I've ever seen.

You can stuff the ARC-1210 in the '09 Octad when you get it, and perhaps use one of these in the '06, if you need it. Otherwise, I'd say skip this one, and just place the Areca in the new system when you get it up and running.

I'd bet it isn't capable to bootcamp a Windows RAID0, which is what I want. And I want it particularly to work with Apple's sort of GUID partition table.

After all I'm doing this to give Vista64 an equal shot at running dual SSD RAID0 wghich I do with OS X SW RAID0. I'm keen to see which system is faster in cinebench that way. My guess is Vista. But only with AHCI activated. It makes a factor of 2-3 compared with legacy HDDs.

 

[nanofrog]

I'd bet it isn't capable to bootcamp a Windows RAID0, which is what I want. And I want it particularly to work with Apple's sort of GUID partition table.

After all I'm doing this to give Vista64 an equal shot at running dual SSD RAID0 wghich I do with OS X SW RAID0. I'm keen to see which system is faster in cinebench that way. My guess is Vista. But only with AHCI activated. It makes a factor of 2-3 compared with legacy HDDs.

It doesn't list any other OS support beyond OS X, but it will boot EFI32/64.

This would be a custom model they've provided to Apple I think, but it would still be based on something, as it's likely still systems engineered of an existing product. What's interesting, it's 3rd party to a 3rd party, given the fact Highpoint doesn't design or manufacture their gear. Presumably, Highpoint provides the cards via their ODM. Not sure who came up with the firmware, but I'd guess Apple on that. Highpoint would have provided drivers for Windows, and possibly Linux, and it would be available on their site as well. Not just Apple's, and a Mac only product.

At any rate, it's very possible that it could use drivers from one of Highpoint's other products to support Windows (same ODM made product). It just couldn't work in a system that uses BIOS.

A gamble though, I admit.

 

[gugucom]

I'm getting to the bottom of my problems I believe. I think that the Areca driver or firmware is faulty. When you want to install any Vista CD to the a RAID drive it tells you that the target drive isn't suitable for installation.

I found a work around. If I call up the setup file on the install DVD from another Windows installation instead from the DVD menue it accepts the same target drive. At least that has worked so far with a single RAID HDD. I will run a trial on my SSD RAID0 shortly.

I also found that I can lift an image from a MSR partitioned drive and Winclone it to a Apple GUID drive. I hope that I can use that trick to get me back into a 100% Winclone environment. Keep the fingers crossed!!!

 

[Capt. Corduroy]

Take a look at this. I've only given it a quick glance, but it is operational for EFI32, and is what you really needed from the beginning for the '06 model.

I know it's Highpoint, but it's the only EFI32 capable card I've ever seen.

I believe it's based on the RR 2314, but with two fewer eSata connectors. But with different firmware. I have one and works quite well.

 

[Mr.McRAID]

Just search for 4x 2.5" backplane, and what you want should turn up. I'm not sure about the best locations available to you, but here's a model offered on span.com (NOT the best one to use though, as it uses a different cable; SFF-8484).

I'm sure you can find it much closer to home (faster & cheaper shipping), but some US based sources do ship internationally if need be. One such example.


Yes, the cable exists. Here's an example (SFF-8087 - 4i*7 pin SATA).

QUOTE]

Cable are also listed by WebConneXXion.com (Netherlands):

http://www.webconnexxion.com/raid/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=712

 

[ncc1701d]

I've Mroogled this thread searching for some answers, but it's doing my head in

I have MacPro 4.1 (2009), apple raid card.


Can I do the following:

Optical Bay 2: 1 SSD for OSX boot / apps and Bootcamp

HDD 1, 2, 3 & 4: Hardware Raid 0, 4 x 2TB for data storage.

 

[gugucom]

Better wait for the options with RAID card until nano shows up. The question with the optical "B" is a definite yes. But make your SSD huge or you will have problems. I'll recommend 160 or 320 GB. You also need to make sure you keep 10-20% of each partition empty to enable proper wear leveling or the SSD will level itself to death.

 

[ncc1701d]

Thanks. I already have the 2nd optical bay currently using 1TB drive for Bootcamp, but wasn't sure if it could also boot OSX. I will plan to switch that out with SSD. I also use hardware raid 0 for the other 4 HDD bays, but whether it can work with the combo I'm after... nano to the rescue

I'm doing this to reduce "beachballness", which I seem to get when the hdd's run down and then need sometimes up to 15 seconds to get going again, even when just doing something like opening "dictionary".

By reading as many threads as I can, I understand boot times and app opening will be snappy - how about when those apps need to access the data on the hdd (itunes accessing movies, imovie accessing home movies for editing)?


I just read a few other threads, talking about moving the home folder from the boot drive to another. Seems easy enough . Once this is all done, will my existing time machine back up (based purely off my current set up of 4x1TB drives in hardware raid 0), be able to put back all my data and / or settings to their respective new locations?

 

[nanofrog]

Can I do the following:

Optical Bay 2: 1 SSD for OSX boot / apps and Bootcamp[/QUOTE]
Yes. Pay close attention to the details gugucom provided, as they're highly important.

HDD 1, 2, 3 & 4: Hardware Raid 0, 4 x 2TB for data storage.

Generally speaking, Yes.

But I'd highly recommend dumping the Apple RAID card, as it's a POS. I'd be afraid it's too unstable (i.e. battery issue alone has never been solved - theres more info on this in MR), and possibly slow, even for a 4x stripe set. Keep in mind, the throughputs of the 2TB models is quite decent, especially for the 7200 rpm models (say 120MB/s per drive, so you could see 600MB/s for the set). The Apple card uses a 500MHz PPC on that model, and should be able to take it, as a stripe set is a small load.

But given how bad the card is, again, I say DUMP IT (I've told you this in other threads - it's really that bad a product), and go with another card. Say an ARC-1212 or RR4321 (cheaper option, 1.2GHz processor; both cards are 4 port models).

 

[disconap]

But given how bad the card is, again, I say DUMP IT (I've told you this in other threads - it's really that bad a product), and go with another card. Say an ARC-1212 or RR4321 (cheaper option, 1.2GHz processor; both cards are 4 port models).

I have no experience with this card (the Apple stock one) but I've read people saying they were achieving identical and sometimes superior performance just using software RAID over those piles.

 

[nanofrog]

I have no experience with this card (the Apple stock one) but I've read people saying they were achieving identical and sometimes superior performance just using software RAID over those piles.

I recall seeing things like that as well. It's S-L-O-W, and not a good card to have (unstable, slow, expensive, only works in one OS, and battery problems - just off the top of my head ).

 

[ncc1701d]

Thanks again nano! Well.... I think I'll try it without hardware raid to start off with. If the performance is ok with software raid 0, then there's probably no point. I'll chalk it up to another bad purchase decision

As for the raid card battery issue - that's come and gone I've had apple tech come to my house and sort that out and haven't had any problems since.

If I don't use it, can I just leave it in the machine and not raid anything or do I have to take it out?

Does the data from time machine backups need to go back to the same type of drive configuration that they came from? (ie, my system is currently hardware raid 0, if I make it software raid, will it accept it?)

 

[nanofrog]

If I don't use it, can I just leave it in the machine and not raid anything or do I have to take it out?

You could, but I'd pull it, as it has to load it's own firmware, which adds time to the boot sequence. It also happens to free up a slot for another device if it's needed.

Does the data from time machine backups need to go back to the same type of drive configuration that they came from? (ie, my system is currently hardware raid 0, if I make it software raid, will it accept it?)

No. It doesn't matter, and the existing data can be re-installed to a new drive or array (i.e. if you use the existing drives in a software RAID, the initialization process will wipe any data on them, so data must be restored from backup/s).

 

[ncc1701d]

Ok.... It's taken me a few days of researching all this and I am slowly, very slowly, getting somewhere close to maybeunderstanding what the OP is trying to achieve.

Obviously the Intel X-25M is the way to go, but then there's a size issue. It looks as though you can't raid 2 together and shove them in the optical bay two without a fair bit of messing about.

The 4SA disc array looks good, but it seems as though it needs a different raid card to what I have. Plus, from what nanofrog's says at post #42, I wouldn't be able to put bootcamp on it if it can only work with OSX.

I guess I'll have to get a larger but inferior to the X-25M ssd to put OSX and Bootcamp on one SSD in optical bay 2.

When using time machine to back up everything after moving the home folder off the SSD and onto the HDD array, will it back up ... everything (including apps etc) to my drobo as it does now when everything is on the one drive?

 

[nanofrog]

When using time machine to back up everything after moving the home folder off the SSD and onto the HDD array, will it back up ... everything (including apps etc) to my drobo as it does now when everything is on the one drive?

Yes. But you'll have to set it to do so, as the folders will be on different drives.

 

[disconap]

I recall seeing things like that as well. It's S-L-O-W, and not a good card to have (unstable, slow, expensive, only works in one OS, and battery problems - just off the top of my head ).

Yeah, you know something? For all the "pro" grade work I do and the performance I really do need (I know, out of a G5, but really my rig is still pretty solid), the only problem I've EVER had with the software RAID in OSX is a bad drive that would only mount half the time. Replaced the drive and haven't since had a problem, and for all the "processor overhead" people keep talking about, I notice a completely negligible difference in processor usage running the OSX RAID vs. just a standard drive, even using a PCI-X sata card. So I suppose if I constantly did HD video or 3d rendering or something I might need a card, but for the majority of users my advice would really be "do you really NEED a RAID card?" Because the answer is probably "no"; for most work a software RAID is still going to give you an incredible performance boost and, well, not cost you anything...

I'm not saying it's dumb to buy a premium card; if you need the advantages, have the money, and/or just like knowing you've got the fastest rig you can have, then by all means buy it (I would have a new MacPro decked out with SSDs on a dedicated RAID card if I could afford it). But it's sort of unnecessary IMO for the average user, even the pro graphics and audio user.

 

[nanofrog]

Yeah, you know something? For all the "pro" grade work I do and the performance I really do need (I know, out of a G5, but really my rig is still pretty solid), the only problem I've EVER had with the software RAID in OSX is a bad drive that would only mount half the time. Replaced the drive and haven't since had a problem, and for all the "processor overhead" people keep talking about, I notice a completely negligible difference in processor usage running the OSX RAID vs. just a standard drive, even using a PCI-X sata card. So I suppose if I constantly did HD video or 3d rendering or something I might need a card, but for the majority of users my advice would really be "do you really NEED a RAID card?" Because the answer is probably "no"; for most work a software RAID is still going to give you an incredible performance boost and, well, not cost you anything...

I'm not saying it's dumb to buy a premium card; if you need the advantages, have the money, and/or just like knowing you've got the fastest rig you can have, then by all means buy it (I would have a new MacPro decked out with SSDs on a dedicated RAID card if I could afford it). But it's sort of unnecessary IMO for the average user, even the pro graphics and audio user.

It all depends on the specifics though.

For example, if you're running a stripe set of mechanical drives and don't have other drives (more disks than ports), there's not going to be a need for a RAID card.

But once you get to the point of:
A. Drive count exceeds the port count on the board (SATA)
B. Throughput issues (i.e. stripe set of SSD's and/or mechanical drives accessed simultaneously) if attached to the logic board
C. SAS drives
D. RAID level not supported by OS X's software RAID functions (i.e. parity based arrays 5/6/50/60)

you hit a different situation.

 

[disconap]

Oh totally. I have a server in the office so I don't need to expand past the storage I already have (2 raids and a 4 drive port multiplied storage tower). But I think a lot of people just want speed, and really two SSDs striped using OSX is more than most people think...

 

[nanofrog]

Oh totally. I have a server in the office so I don't need to expand past the storage I already have (2 raids and a 4 drive port multiplied storage tower). But I think a lot of people just want speed, and really two SSDs striped using OSX is more than most people think...

For an enthusiast, that's likely more than adequate.

It's possible to run into throttling issues that way though (i.e. more than 2x SSD's in a stripe set), as the ICH has a limit of ~660MB/s. That's not a problem for single disk (SSD or HDD), or even HDD's in RAID.