20 inch iMac Released

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by jxyama
consumers in apple's market are not gamers. please, get over this.

macs have higher entry price. people who can afford them are NOT teenagers and college students playing video games.

apple cannot target its products to gamers. their video cards aren't good, CPU is slow, blah blah.

So, Apple makes machines that are too expensive and too slow for gamers, and this is a good thing??

Apple can't afford to ignore the gaming market, it's a key driver in consumer sales. Plus, you won't find many gamers with 3+ year old machines, they need to buy new machines to play the latest and greatest games, hence valuable customers to have.

It's not as if the iMac is a stellar performer apart from games either.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
the point is consumers are gamers

Nope, sorry.

Gamers are a (small) subset of consumers. They are vocal, and tend to be overwhelmingly represented by the "the world owes me everything" crowd, but they are a distinct minority.

If you are a gamer in any "serious" capacity, Apple does NOT have a platform for you. That's okay. I think you can deal with it.

If you want to play games on occasion, then even this Mac is decent enough. People where I work get together for a Quake frag-fest a couple nights a week, and most of them are on two-year-old Macs. Not my thing, personally, but they sure seem to enjoy themselves despite having hardware a good generation or two behind the "crappy" current nVidia midline graphics card.

If you have to be getting 200fps out of a game to enjoy it, then Apple does not have a product for you. Sorry. Live with it!

That's Wintel is there for. That's what XBox is there for. That's what PlayStation is there for. Mac need not be all things for all people all the time.

 

[Lancetx]

Originally posted by AirUncleP
A 17" iMac and a 20g iPod ($2198) vs. a 20" iMac ($2199). It's a no brainer.

Better yet how's about a 17" CRT eMac w/SuperDrive and a 20GB iPod for $1,498 vs. a 17" iMac for $1,799 (muchless a 20" iMac for $2,199). Now that to me that's a real no brainer too.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

so true whooleytoo, games are a big drive in the market and unlike that person who has photoshop a mac gamer will have many more programs therefore sustaining the mac market and supporting it. the simple fact is motostagnation is still with us, and since apples cpu's are so slow they can keep feeding us cheap videocards/chips. i refuse to think apple can not make a high performance machine for the prosumer. the window between a single g4 at 1.25 and the dual 2 gig G5 is a big one to say the least. the fact is apple's crippled consumer machines are very slow.

 

[jocknerd]

Will the 20" cause problems with the arm?

There have been a lot of imacs that went back for service because the arm got loose. My mom bought her 17" last April and it just went in for service last week because she couldn't keep the screen from dropping to the desk. Thats not very good quality for something just over 6 months old. So has Apple improved the arms on the 20"? If not, there are going to be a lot of unhappy users down the road. My mom's not the only 17" to have this problem. There have been a lot of discussion in the Apple forums.

 

[jxyama]

i never said it's a good thing. all i said is that to dismiss iMac solely based on its ability as a gaming machine is wrong.

at the moment, with game developers and videocard manufacturers slow to port to macs, gaming market is one area apple can overlook. afterall, what is apple to do? there's no top of the line videocard. there's no affordable g5. if you are just asking for prices to be lowered - then wait a bit because prices WILL come down if not catering to gamers is as important as you make it out to be and starts to hurt apple's bottom line. we'll see about that.

it will do far more damage to the apple's strength as "all in-one computing solution" if they started offering infinite customizability in iMacs. most basic consumers want simple solution. they look at their budget, buy a computer with the money and start using it. they are probably not very interested in how much RAM is in the videocard, etc.

the other sales model is dell's model. advertise a computer for $500 with a 3 year old processor (celeron) with a shared RAM and CD-ROM. if joe shmoe doesn't know any better and gets the thing as is, he will be either fine with it because he does nothing but a very basic tasks or find it fairly unusable. or if he knows anything about computers, try to get him to upgrade and the price goes up significantly.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

imac needs to be rethinked and they need to ditch the arm monitor, build a headless pci slotted agp slotted single g5 computer that is less than half the size of the towers with wireless keyboard and mouse and wrap it in cool colors and or shape add a cool monitor option you can buy if you want to. they would sell millions. i know this has been said before. 1 more comment on those i hate mac games and refuse to use my mac as a gaming machine though it cost me a arm & leg. go to inside mac games for the latest ! Halo will be out on Mac dec3! better have a newer mac if you want to play.

 

[jxyama]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
so true whooleytoo, games are a big drive in the market and unlike that person who has photoshop a mac gamer will have many more programs therefore sustaining the mac market and supporting it. the simple fact is motostagnation is still with us, and since apples cpu's are so slow they can keep feeding us cheap videocards/chips. i refuse to think apple can not make a high performance machine for the prosumer. the window between a single g4 at 1.25 and the dual 2 gig G5 is a big one to say the least. the fact is apple's crippled consumer machines are very slow.

oh please, a copy of photoshop is worth how much more than games?

games may direct the technology but clearly, it doesn't get the same respect when it comes to $$$. if gamers drive the market by spending money as you seem to be implying, then just go get the dual G5. gamers aren't sustaining the mac market - video/music/art professionals dropping $3k on dual G5's and $1k on Adobe suites do.

apple will not cannibalize the sale of their PM or iMac buy introducing a prosumer machine targeting gamers. just because you want one doesn't mean apple should spend it's R&D/marketing money to make it. jobs created a very good 2x2 matrix of pro/consumer/desktop/laptop. i think it would be rather foolish to slip something in the middle, jeopardizing all sales, just to cater to minority (but vocal) gamers. can you justify, beyond "oh, it would be cool and i'd buy one" why a headless iMacs would do so well? what if the headless iMac with a margin of $200 sold half a million but ate 90% of the sales of iMacs and eMacs with margins of $300 to $400? still a viable product then?

again, your point has been made. do you have more useful things to add to this?

and, please, use complete sentences.

 

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Nope, sorry.

Gamers are a (small) subset of consumers.

Gaming is a multi-billion dollar market... It's no "small subset" of consumers.. It's a vast growing amount of consumers and many of them are young an impressionable. Apple should take advantage of this as much as possible if they want to garner more market share.. Get'em while they're young and hot... You can't do that with under performing expensive hardware.

Many gamers want to use the personal computer as their main gaming piece because it's too expensive to get a console and own a pc... So Apple should hit this market hard...

Apple actually caters to a subset of consumers right nowÉ They also cater to a subset of professional users. The graphics and pro audio market is a subset of the professional business marketÉ Look at the percentages of any company. ItÕs the graphics department with the Macs and the rest of the organization on pc.

 

[jxyama]

yes, gaming market is big. that doesn't mean apple has to "cater" to it. do you see IBM catering their machines to gaming? do you think apple should eat and kill their margins (and, thus far, profitable business model) so it can take something away from alienware, console makers, etc.?

portable phone market is huge. what did jobs say about apple entering that market?

just because the pie is big doesn't mean anyone can get in and grab a piece. if the market is 10 times bigger but 100 times more competitive, you'd better think twice before making drastic changes to your business plan to venture into such an area.

it's a market apple should keep an eye on. but with the slowness of game and videocard porting to macs, i don't think it's wise for macs to simply lower prices for the sake of catering to gamers. there are other non-gamers apple has been successfully catering to.

 

[cr2sh]

I am seriously going to start a '20" Powerbook' Chant here in about 5 minutes....

Its not a very practical addition.. the 17" iMac is fine for most consumers.. but I think it'll sell well for a while.. christ, why not?

A big screen is nice.. but how about higher density resolutions? its gotta be the better solution... just a little tighter? This 15" Latitude has a 1600x1200 native and its really nice... please?

Powermacs.. CHECK
Powerbooks.. CHECK
iMacs... CHECK
iBooks... CHECK
eMac... CHECK
xServe... nope...
Displays... nope...

 

[Dreadnought]

The point is:

The proc is to slow for this machine, and it is tooooooooooooo expensive! You can have a g5 1.6 for that money with a good screen from a third party. Sorry Apple , first put a G5 in there and then a 20" screen. There is one pluspoint: It looks even cooler then before!!

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
im sorry but if you expect me to think you are running your games at 1440 x 900 and they are even remotely smooth on a 4mx then you must think iam a newbie. i think you mean your screen is 1440 x 900 also you cant turn on some things with a 4mx anyways go ahead and pay top dollar for the worst videochip(not card fx5200 and top dollar for a stuck in the same old mud G41.25. then when the machine is obsolete you have to get rid of the monitor. this is a stop gap measure thats why no hoopla. the real machine comes out next year lets just hope they get off the g4 and get off the mx series of cards which by the way the fx5200 is a rebranded mx. so this year imac went from 1 gig to 1.25 gig! WOW!

Concerning "obsolescence" ... Mac's have historically very high resale value. When your new 20" is obsolete, you will likely be able to sell it for 1000-1500.

Personally, my PC at home has a first-generation gForce256 in it (and an 800MHz P3 on a 100MHz FSB). I'm not a massive FPS shooter fan, but I played through Icewind Dale on it last year without any gameplay problems, and Return to Castle Wolfenstein a year or so before. Did it look as "nice" as it would have on a Radeon 9800? I'm sure it didn't. But it was an enjoyable game.

Please. Buy a PC and spend every dime of your inheritance on the highest-end graphics card every six months. It funds the development of hardware for the rest of us. Thanks!

 

[pgwalsh]

Originally posted by jxyama
do you see IBM catering their machines to gaming? do you think apple should eat and kill their margins (and, thus far, profitable business model) so it can take something away from alienware, console makers, etc.?

IBM caters to corporations and not consumers... Dell and Gateway cater to consumers and they both have specialized gaming machines.

portable phone market is huge. what did jobs say about apple entering that market?

That's a completely different market... Phone chips and pda/personal computer chips are totally different.

just because the pie is big doesn't mean anyone can get in and grab a piece. if the market is 10 times bigger but 100 times more competitive, you'd better think twice before making drastic changes to your business plan to venture into such an area.

Anyone can get in, but it there's no guarantee of success... Micro$oft does it all the time.

it's a market apple should keep an eye on. but with the slowness of game and videocard porting to macs, i don't think it's wise for macs to simply lower prices for the sake of catering to gamers. there are other non-gamers apple has been successfully catering to. [/B]

You're right, they should lower the prices of consumer machines to cater to consumers.

 

[Flowbee]

Originally posted by pgwalsh
IBM caters to corporations and not consumers... Dell and Gateway cater to consumers and they both have specialized gaming machines.

Oh, that must be one of the keys to Gateway's success.

 

[sethypoo]

20" PowerBook, 20" PowerBook.....

 

[ZildjianKX]

What a waste of money...

If you want to upgrade from your iMac later, guess what? You can't use the 20" LCD that you just paid a grand for.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

shame shame shame on all of us for even hinting a mac should be used for gaming? what were we thinking? macs should be slow, should have lousey video chips sets that cant be replaced, no pci slots and a slow cpu and we will put a shiney new display on it and consumers across the world will rejoice in our wisdom! really does a 20 incher even need to be on a arm when you can see it anywhere in the room? its time to can this turkey.

 

[jxyama]

i've wasted enough of today on this silly discussion, so this is my last post here. but geez, anyone can get in so apple should?

and why should apple lower the price when it's still selling ok? i'm sure they got their share of market analysts and concluded that:

current price(margin) x current number of units sold = current total revenue(profit)

is better than

lower price(margin) x increased number of units sold = projected total revenue (profit)

"lowering the price to cater to the consumer" is true if you are in a commodity market and apple isn't a commodity.

i hate analogies, but do you see porche making $10,000 cars to cater to the "consumers"?

 

[scat999999]

Wow...so many of you are missing the point. >

Apple isn't and never was about gaming. Want to game, buy a G5PM or a Dell XPS. Most people don't use their computers for gaming. I spoke to enough people when I worked at Dell's call center to know that.
Apple knows who their bread and butter market is... creative professionals and people that value esthetics and design.
All you have to do is look at the design elements of the current line to see that.

Introducing this 20" iMac is brilliant marketing. Most people will buy the middle model in a lineup. This is the best way to drive the sales of the 17" version. I even bought my 15" IMac partly because it was between the eMac and 17" one I really wanted. My brain (wallet) said to buy another eMac, but my heart said to buy the 17" iMac. So I "compromised" and bought the 15". This is a very shrewd move by Apple entering the holiday shopping season.

 

[jxyama]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
shame shame shame on all of us for even hinting a mac should be used for gaming? what were we thinking? macs should be slow, should have lousey video chips sets that cant be replaced, no pci slots and a slow cpu and we will put a shiney new display on it and consumers across the world will rejoice in our wisdom! really does a 20 incher even need to be on a arm when you can see it anywhere in the room? its time to can this turkey.

you didn't HINT that macs should be used for gaming. you dismissed the entire iMac line by saying it's useless because it can't be used for gaming.

i'm done here.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

hey if you want to pay protower price for emac performance thats fine. im sure there will be lot of people buying who dont know anymore the difference between a g4 and g5 then they do the fx5200 vs 9800. this machine is a performance dog and would say any pc for half the price would put it to shame. if you are looking for value it is not in the imac line. they couldnt put a mobile 9600 in it? bumped the g4 just a little even if its just for looks?how about more ram? or fatter bus or something?? i predict this will be the shortest lived imac of all time in its current form.

 

[pgwalsh]

This thread got really funny... We have one side that wants to use the iMac to play games and the other that doesn't.. They want if for something else however they don't want it for gaming... WTF is that.

There is no reason it shouldn't be used for games... You should try to make a product that appeals to multiple segments... That may be what they're trying to do, but they fall short in the gaming segment. I don't use the Mac for gaming... I'm not a gamer, but I see why so many gamers use PC's and I see that Apple could offer a little more and get some of those customers.. Is that bad? I hope not... Are we trying too hard to be elitists.. haha sounds like it to me...

That iMac is a really good computer, but it could be better and it could appeal to a broader market. To suggest someone go buy something else cause you don't think that this computer is geared towards gaming is silly.. I thought we wanted our Mac systems to be the best and best the PC world when they can. I could be alone in this....

 

[eyrii69]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
shame shame shame on all of us for even hinting a mac should be used for gaming? what were we thinking? macs should be slow, should have lousey video chips sets that cant be replaced, no pci slots and a slow cpu and we will put a shiney new display on it and consumers across the world will rejoice in our wisdom! really does a 20 incher even need to be on a arm when you can see it anywhere in the room? its time to can this turkey.

There are other Macs available, go for one of them if you want.
I suppose that is the point of having several models available, or is it not?

I think EVERYONE in this forum know YOU do not want a 20 inch iMac, but maybe some "weird, silly" people want one, and now they can buy one.

But I love the prospect of both an iMac G5 2Ghz with 20" display, a headless "new" Cube, or a headless iMac with an VGA port for those who currently have a display. Anyway, I do not want these before styling is good, and they do not suffer from bad reliability.

 

[DillHarris]

Originally posted by choogheem
With 256 MB standard, they almost force you to go to apple tech support to install apple memory to get to 1GB. Or of course blow your warranty and do it yourself (which by the way is not too hard to do).

Upgrading the RAM dosen't blow your warranty. Crucial sells high quality RAM for a good price, and you can find cheaper...

My parents still use a bondi blue iMac... The only thing that bites is the screen size. Other than that, it gets the job done. Yes, the 20 incher is not cheap, but it definately won't be unusable in 5 years.