2001: A Space Odyssey just HD?

[northernmunky]

I'll give you the higher quality (for now) but your physical copy can be stolen or damaged in numerous ways that streaming versions can't.

Thats an absurd argument, if someone breaks into my home I'm sure I'll have more problems than taking my 2001 Space Odyssey disc. But do buzz me up when they take it away from your streaming service

I'm not convinced. I believe that 4K BluRay will go the same way as LaserDisc. In a few years, you won't have a working machine to play the relics on.
[doublepost=1547315643][/doublepost]

Bluray players arent going to magically disappear. I'm certain you are aware you can still get hold of any old player you want and use it to your hearts content? If I wanted a Laserdisc player I'll go on ebay and get one!

However, them bleary things don't offer the film in HDR

I'm sure you noticed it says its HDR on the box.

 

[JordanNZ]

"Updating the transfers"?

If this is a common thing that they do, they need to update the text that appears when you try to play a movie. "This is no longer available" reads like "you're screwed". If it's just temporarily unavailable because they're doing maintenance on the movie files, they should say so -- and they shouldn't disappear the movie from the store as though it were never coming back.

Sometimes they update from HD to 4K, or add DV to a title. The title will be unavailable while this is happening.

Agree that a message would be nice.

They may have been fixing an issue with the 4K copy of 2001 (missing fade sequence of a few seconds). This issue was also on the 4K Blu-Ray, they corrected that issue with an updated disc. This is one area where digital copies can be updated without having to buy a new copy.

 

[jole26]

Thats an absurd argument, if someone breaks into my home I'm sure I'll have more problems than taking my 2001 Space Odyssey disc. But do buzz me up when they take it away from your streaming service

How is it absurd? You claimed your physical copy can't be taken away from you. I've pointed out numerous ways it can be.

 

[570934]

Thats an absurd argument, if someone breaks into my home I'm sure I'll have more problems than taking my 2001 Space Odyssey disc. But do buzz me up when they take it away from your streaming service



Bluray players arent going to magically disappear. I'm certain you are aware you can still get hold of any old player you want and use it to your hearts content? If I wanted a Laserdisc player I'll go on ebay and get one!



I'm sure you noticed it says its HDR on the box.

Oh aye, missed that

 

[northernmunky]

How is it absurd? You claimed your physical copy can't be taken away from you. I've pointed out numerous ways it can be.

I think I'll be alright. I'm not a person living in constant fear of my 2001: Space Odyssey disc getting nicked 24/7.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Don't bother and just watch the 2k version. The original 70mm print barely contains more resolution than 2k and there's very, very little difference between the new (not the old!) BD and the UHD. Even more laughable is the 8k version that aired in Japan. Pure marketing. And don't bother about Dolby Vision either, barely a device can do proper Dolby Vision. Stuff from iTunes/AppleTV is converted to HDR10, all current LG OLEDs up to 2018 models convert internally and can't process nor show proper Dolby Vision. It's just pure marketing at this point. Converting between formats is actually very common among manufacturers as confirmed by uhd forum members (Dolby is the founder) and during IBC in Amsterdam.

So enjoy it in 2k. Bunch of people posted comparison screenshots in the DCI forum, if anyone is interested. Just keep in mind these are from >$100k video devices, so the small difference there is will be even less noticeable on consumer TVs/projectors in the <$20k range.

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

Thats an absurd argument, if someone breaks into my home I'm sure I'll have more problems than taking my 2001 Space Odyssey disc. But do buzz me up when they take it away from your streaming service



Bluray players arent going to magically disappear. I'm certain you are aware you can still get hold of any old player you want and use it to your hearts content? If I wanted a Laserdisc player I'll go on ebay and get one!



I'm sure you noticed it says its HDR on the box.

Yes but that's the thing - old! Old in its reliability, performance, design,. Still, each to their own. Choose whatever makes you happy and get true pleasure from it! Life is short Get out there and make memories

 

[570934]

Don't bother and just watch the 2k version. The original 70mm print barely contains more resolution than 2k and there's very, very little difference between the new (not the old!) BD and the UHD. Even more laughable is the 8k version that aired in Japan. Pure marketing. And don't bother about Dolby Vision either, barely a device can do proper Dolby Vision. Stuff from iTunes/AppleTV is converted to HDR10, all current LG OLEDs up to 2018 models convert internally and can't process nor show proper Dolby Vision. It's just pure marketing at this point. Converting between formats is actually very common among manufacturers as confirmed by uhd forum members (Dolby is the founder) and during IBC in Amsterdam.

So enjoy it in 2k. Bunch of people posted comparison screenshots in the DCI forum, if anyone is interested. Just keep in mind these are from >$100k video devices, so the small difference there is will be even less noticeable on consumer TVs/projectors in the <$20k range.

lol what a load of rubbish. And what would these magical 100k devices be?

 

[BODYBUILDERPAUL]

I say, just watch it on any format that appeals to you. Make sure that you have great people around you whilst watching the film - never watch film alone - it's to be shared. Then be done with it, talk about it & reflect on it and get outdoors and see what Mother Nature has for you Go on that ride, go for that run, take that hike, surf that wave and you'll never worry about a film ever again From experience, that's my genuine advice
[doublepost=1547328776][/doublepost]

lol what a load of rubbish. And what would these magical 100k devices be?

Out of interest Mr Cell, I notice things more when I watch film / vlogs on my iPhone X or MacBook than I do when sat on the sofa watching the LG 55 OLED.
I know that I'm going to upset a pure purists here, but I prefer watching things on my Apple devices rather than on the 55" TV unless it's Thursday night film night with friends and my A M A ZI N G cooked Italian / Thai / French / Japanese / Greek / Spanish food

 

[570934]

I say, just watch it on any format that appeals to you. Make sure that you have great people around you whilst watching the film - never watch film alone - it's to be shared. Then be done with it, talk about it & reflect on it and get outdoors and see what Mother Nature has for you Go on that ride, go for that run, take that hike, surf that wave and you'll never worry about a film ever again From experience, that's my genuine advice
[doublepost=1547328776][/doublepost]
Out of interest Mr Cell, I notice things more when I watch film / vlogs on my iPhone X or MacBook than I do when sat on the sofa watching the LG 55 OLED.
I know that I'm going to upset a pure purists here, but I prefer watching things on my Apple devices rather than on the 55" TV unless it's Thursday night film night with friends and my A M A ZI N G cooked Italian / Thai / French / Japanese / Greek / Spanish food

Doesn't upset me, I'm loving watching movies on my 2018 12.9 iPad. Will always look "better" on a smaller screen with a similar PPI as a bigger screen.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

lol what a load of rubbish. And what would these magical 100k devices be?

Oh jeez, another one... How is such a device magical? This is technology, not magic. Look at what Barco, Christie, NEC, Sony and other offer. The Sony 5000ES is a consumer device, price is $60k. Do you really believe the new R608 is going to be cheaper, given it's a professional device and has better specs? Just look at Barcos residential line, a Balder starts at $60k and I would place it towards to bottom of quality. You can easily find pro-units between $250k and $500k. I guess you've never been involved in mastering or broadcasting. How does that DCI-P3 covering go for you, could you name a few devices in the consumer range that can do it 100%? And please, no spec-sheet, proper measurements with certified equipment. Most metadata is static in order to reproduce it properly, you need to master it at 1000 nits with 100% DCI-P3. The current limit of grading monitors is around 4000 nits... how do you handle this?

Have you extracted some metadata and compared to the master or DI? Do you even have access to master/DI? Next best thing would be D-Cinema versions. Memberships of Bel Air Digital Circuit are available via installers, if you already have the hardware required, you only need the settop box around $30k-$40k. If the rest of your equipment isn't up to it, expect around $400k to $500k for a full (entry level) system. If you don't need the quality, you can of course always stick to UHD/BD or 4k/2k streaming. Quality is worse, but it's much cheaper of course.
[doublepost=1547331714][/doublepost]

Out of interest Mr Cell, I notice things more when I watch film / vlogs on my iPhone X or MacBook than I do when sat on the sofa watching the LG 55 OLED.

OLED has some significant problems, one is motion handling, the other is lack of shadow detail in the lower range and lack of overall brightness, to name a few. But, is your device properly calibrated within it's capabilities? That makes a night and day difference. Don't do it yourself unless you have the equipment and knowledge to do it. If you want to get the best out of your device, get an ISF certified calibrator. It will set you back a few hundred bucks, but it's well worth it if you're serious about high quality and accurate image reproduction.

 

[570934]

Oh jeez, another one... How is such a device magical? This is technology, not magic. Look at what Barco, Christie, NEC, Sony and other offer. The Sony 5000ES is a consumer device, price is $60k. Do you really believe the new R608 is going to be cheaper, given it's a professional device and has better specs? Just look at Barcos residential line, a Balder starts at $60k and I would place it towards to bottom of quality. You can easily find pro-units between $250k and $500k. I guess you've never been involved in mastering or broadcasting. How does that DCI-P3 covering go for you, could you name a few devices in the consumer range that can do it 100%? And please, no spec-sheet, proper measurements with certified equipment. Most metadata is static in order to reproduce it properly, you need to master it at 1000 nits with 100% DCI-P3. The current limit of grading monitors is around 4000 nits... how do you handle this?

Have you extracted some metadata and compared to the master or DI? Do you even have access to master/DI? Next best thing would be D-Cinema versions. Memberships of Bel Air Digital Circuit are available via installers, if you already have the hardware required, you only need the settop box around $30k-$40k. If the rest of your equipment isn't up to it, expect around $400k to $500k for a full (entry level) system. If you don't need the quality, you can of course always stick to UHD/BD or 4k/2k streaming. Quality is worse, but it's much cheaper of course.
[doublepost=1547331714][/doublepost]
OLED has some significant problems, one is motion handling, the other is lack of shadow detail in the lower range and lack of overall brightness, to name a few. But, is your device properly calibrated within it's capabilities? That makes a night and day difference. Don't do it yourself unless you have the equipment and knowledge to do it. If you want to get the best out of your device, get an ISF certified calibrator. It will set you back a few hundred bucks, but it's well worth it if you're serious about high quality and accurate image reproduction.

Another one what? Another one who's been working in the film industry for the last 25 years? I've worked in broadcast mainly along with major film projects. Have you even stepped into an editing suit? Graded footage for Dolby, of HDR. You'r comparing industrial grading tool to consumer panels and the technicalities between them both, which is just silly.

btw our studio is kitted out with Sony BVM HX310, three of them. No need to spend 100k on mythical devices to produce what we output.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Graded footage for Dolby, of HDR. You'r comparing industrial grading tool to consumer panels and the technicalities between them both, which is just silly.

I'm not, I'm comparing things for use at home, only at different levels of quality.

btw our studio is kitted out with Sony BVM HX310, three of them.

This is a 31" device... when was the last time you've seen someone watch movies on a 31" device (youtube on the computer aside)? Besides, it's a very limited one with only 10-bit and limited to 1000 nits.

If you're involved in movies, I'm sure you were at IBC. You'll meet alot of people there telling you exactly what I said here. Comparison pics of 2001 have been posted in the DCI forum (https://dci-forum.com/), confirming what I said. People that were at IBC and spoke to members as well as uhd forum consultants also there, feel free to go there and read up. I'd still be interested in hearing how you handle 4000 nits in mastering on devices such as LG OLEDs that don't even cover 100% DCI-P3. What do you think is the coverage from the latest TVs available, let's say LG OLED? HDR meta data is also there to explore, it's really not a secret that manufacturers convert between different standards and yes, most consumers probably won't even notice. Similar to 3D audio where manufacturers advertise 192kHz while the actual chips doing the work only support 48kHz, so inputs are downsampled. Not all of course, Theta Casablanca does 96kHz, Trinnov Altitude 32 192kHz for a limited number of channels.

The good news is, we will likely get some proper Dolby Vision content by late 2020 and it should be more spread by 2022. At least when you believe the people actually making the content.

 

[570934]

So you talk about what forums say, but have zero practical experience in the industry. You still didn't answer my question if you've even been in an editing suit? Or if you even work in the industry?

 

[GrumpyCoder]

I have practical experience in the industry, also have been in a number of editing suits audio and video, broadcast, smaller studios and "hollywood" (I hate the name). I don't talk about what people in forums say, I talk about them all confirming what I said here, this is all from people working in the industry, so the sources creating the content and actually developing the technology. I do not work in the industry anymore, I sold my company when I was in my early 30s which was my retirement from industry work. Since doing "nothing" is boring, I teach these days and do consulting every now and then, in tech, not art.

Still, my questions stand, feel free to answer or not. For the others, feel free to read up starting from the link I provided, there's more than enough there and of course do your own work. For some stuff, such as extracting metadata, measuring color gamut and so on some equipment might be needed though.
[doublepost=1547337783][/doublepost]I have one more question, since you mentioned the HX310 (which was shown at IBC and is priced at €30k, so it's not unreasonable for larger devices to be more expensive)
How do you cover the Dolby Vision use-case with it? It's limited to 10-bit, Dolby Vision is 12-bit BT2020. Are you just doing work on a device that isn't able to properly reproduce the results or do you limit the results to lower standards?

 

[JordanNZ]

There is much more detail in the 4K disc vs the new Blu-Ray (and miles more than the old one).

Don't bother and just watch the 2k version. The original 70mm print barely contains more resolution than 2k and there's very, very little difference between the new (not the old!) BD and the UHD. Even more laughable is the 8k version that aired in Japan. Pure marketing. And don't bother about Dolby Vision either, barely a device can do proper Dolby Vision. Stuff from iTunes/AppleTV is converted to HDR10, all current LG OLEDs up to 2018 models convert internally and can't process nor show proper Dolby Vision. It's just pure marketing at this point. Converting between formats is actually very common among manufacturers as confirmed by uhd forum members (Dolby is the founder) and during IBC in Amsterdam.

So enjoy it in 2k. Bunch of people posted comparison screenshots in the DCI forum, if anyone is interested. Just keep in mind these are from >$100k video devices, so the small difference there is will be even less noticeable on consumer TVs/projectors in the <$20k range.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

There is much more detail in the 4K disc vs the new Blu-Ray (and miles more than the old one).

The link you just posted and removed again is a comparison of the old BD and the new UHD. Those are from different masters. Compare the new versions 1:1. Again pics are posted where I linked to above, all three versions. If you can choose, I'd pick the UHD, but there's little difference to the new (not old!) BD.

 

[JordanNZ]

The link goes to a forum, but not a comparison.

The link you just posted and removed again is a comparison of the old BD and the new UHD. Those are from different masters. Compare the new versions 1:1. Again pics are posted where I linked to above, all three versions. If you can choose, I'd pick the UHD, but there's little difference to the new (not old!) BD.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

And in a forum you can search and do a little work yourself.
One example: https://dci-forum.com/d-cinema-hi-e...sidential-laser-projector-best-world/1710/247.
There's more, search for it.

 

[JordanNZ]

And in a forum you can search and do a little work yourself.
One example: https://dci-forum.com/d-cinema-hi-e...sidential-laser-projector-best-world/1710/247.
There's more, search for it.

Those are photographs of a projector....

Although HDR-SDR conversion doesn't help with these caps, there is absolutely more detail in the 4k image.

https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=495&y=303&d1=12509&d2=12517&s1=124265&s2=124349&l=0&i=14&go=1

https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=723&y=183&d1=12509&d2=12517&s1=124265&s2=124349&l=0&i=14&go=1

 

[GrumpyCoder]

And? Those show the difference between the versions, just as your eyes perceive it. When you take a digital screenshot and compare those, your eyes perceive the difference from your monitor. All screenshots are taken under same conditions, same setup, so it's valid to use those for comparison in relation to each other. What your monitor shows or does not show in the end is another story. Everyone who claims one version is better than the other already owns all these version, so can easily make any type of comparison for themselves. And if one doesn't own these versions, well, then better make no comparison.
[doublepost=1547346587][/doublepost]Some more, digital, for those who can't do a comparison because they don't own the discs: https://blu-ray-rezensionen.net/2001-odyssee-im-weltraum-4k-uhd/
[doublepost=1547346817][/doublepost]

Although HDR-SDR conversion doesn't help with these caps

Indeed, this is not what you see in a proper setup. The remastered BD looks like crap in those shots. Looks much better when played back on-screen.

Edit: Something fishy there, make a comparison of the US BD and the UK remastered BD. Not that much of a difference. Real world difference between those is larger, looks like UK remastered BD screenshots are not as good as they should be for some reason (maybe different software used for capturing?)

 

[JordanNZ]

And? Those show the difference between the versions, just as your eyes perceive it. When you take a digital screenshot and compare those, your eyes perceive the difference from your monitor. All screenshots are taken under same conditions, same setup, so it's valid to use those for comparison in relation to each other. What your monitor shows or does not show in the end is another story. Everyone who claims one version is better than the other already owns all these version, so can easily make any type of comparison for themselves. And if one doesn't own these versions, well, then better make no comparison.
[doublepost=1547346587][/doublepost]Some more, digital, for those who can't do a comparison because they don't own the discs: https://blu-ray-rezensionen.net/2001-odyssee-im-weltraum-4k-uhd/
[doublepost=1547346817][/doublepost]
Indeed, this is not what you see in a proper setup. The remastered BD looks like crap in those shots. Looks much better when played back on-screen.

Edit: Something fishy there, make a comparison of the US BD and the UK remastered BD. Not that much of a difference. Real world difference between those is larger, looks like UK remastered BD screenshots are not as good as they should be for some reason (maybe different software used for capturing?)

The BD hasn't undergone any kind of conversion (it doesn't have HDR), it's a cap right off of the data stream.. Not with a camera in the path. There is nothing fishy there, it simply doesn't have as much detail. And of course you're not going to notice this on anything other than a giant screen. But it's not accurate to say that the blu-ray has just as much detail as the UHD version.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

The BD hasn't undergone any kind of conversion (it doesn't have HDR), it's a cap right off of the data stream.

It doesn't have to be converted, you have to capture an image though, for that you need software which may or may not alter quality. If nothing is fishy, then how come the remastered version looks much better on-screen than in those comparison pics? That would mean the actual setup would somehow make it look better than what is on the actual disc. Of course one could introduce all kind of processing to make it look "better", but that's not the case. And for the record, the UHD shows a little more detail, bit it's minimal and nowhere near the level of what you'd normally expect from going 2k to 4k. The impact in color reproduction between BD and UHD is much larger than what you gain in detail. Between the UHD and the 8k version, there's no difference, only in color but that's not surprising given NHK have done their own color grading on the 8k version.

 

[JordanNZ]

It doesn't have to be converted, you have to capture an image though, for that you need software which may or may not alter quality. If nothing is fishy, then how come the remastered version looks much better on-screen than in those comparison pics? That would mean the actual setup would somehow make it look better than what is on the actual disc. Of course one could introduce all kind of processing to make it look "better", but that's not the case. And for the record, the UHD shows a little more detail, bit it's minimal and nowhere near the level of what you'd normally expect from going 2k to 4k. The impact in color reproduction between BD and UHD is much larger than what you gain in detail. Between the UHD and the 8k version, there's no difference, only in color but that's not surprising given NHK have done their own color grading on the 8k version.

Because I'm showing extreme zoomed in images to highlight fine detail.. You don't watch a movie like that, and it's not representative of anything in motion. I'm not questioning the quality of the regular BD, it looks fantastic.

If anything, it shows what a really good downsample from 4k can do to show off remaster on BD.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Because I'm showing extreme zoomed in images to highlight fine detail.

What I mean is that the BD remaster looks better on screen than the captured image of the BD remaster. Normally you would expect it to be the other way around. That's why I think there's something wrong with the capture of the BD remaster. When you capture, you need to open the stream, construct the image, write it to either a buffer or render target and then you can save it as an jpg or png image. So it could be software differences causing this. I'll try to take a screenshot next week, directly from the screen for comparison with the captured image of the BD remaster, which should hopefully show what I mean if I can take a proper picture of it.