2007 Chevy Tahoe unveiled!

[SharksFan22]

While you're right that Prius's aren't making Toyota any cash right now, the car represents the direction that the US car market should be taking. Personally, I think our dependence on foreign oil can be greatly mitigated by doing one of two things:

1. Getting responsible cars into the market so Americans can choose to drive responsibly. This is the optimal solution.

These cars exist today. All manufacturers have some form of economical, fuel-efficient cars. They may be terrible performance cars, but they acheive the goal of efficient, inexpensive transportation. I'm not someone who chooses these, but personally, I am willing to spend the extra money to put performance over efficiency.

2. Tax gasoline to penalize people who buy SUVs, forcing people to choose responsibly. This is the path that Europe has chosen, and I strongly disagree with that policy here in the US.

As much as I detest any additional tax, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, but only if (1) it's phased in gradually so the market can absorb it and (2) the extra revenue goes directly into maintaining existing roads and building new ones. This additional tax must not be put into the hands of the politicians with their own agendas.

For what it's worth, I had an experience this weekend with gas mileage that re-affirms my belief that many roads and cars are capable of significantly better performance, but most drivers cannot pay attention to the road to utilitize this capability. I normally recognize somewhere around 17-18 mpg with mixed city and freeway driving (65-75 mph). I just retured from a 250 mile trip to the mountains - driving up in the middle of the day with virtually no traffic, I ran at speeds from 80-110mph (the car is made to run on the autobahn at speeds much higher than 110mph) and acheived just a tick under 25mpg. Now, that's probably an exception rather than the rule, but the point is that .... well, I kind of lost my train of thought, but it sure was fun watching people come up behind me at 75 or 80 mph and watch their jaws drop when I accelerated away.

Now, if we can just get rid of those dang underutilized, social-engineering experiments known as carpool lanes, I'll be happy.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

These cars exist today. All manufacturers have some form of economical, fuel-efficient cars. They may be terrible performance cars, but they acheive the goal of efficient, inexpensive transportation. I'm not someone who chooses these, but personally, I am willing to spend the extra money to put performance over efficiency.

As much as I detest any additional tax, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, but only if (1) it's phased in gradually so the market can absorb it and (2) the extra revenue goes directly into maintaining existing roads and building new ones. This additional tax must not be put into the hands of the politicians with their own agendas.

For what it's worth, I had an experience this weekend with gas mileage that re-affirms my belief that many roads and cars are capable of significantly better performance, but most drivers cannot pay attention to the road to utilitize this capability. I normally recognize somewhere around 17-18 mpg with mixed city and freeway driving (65-75 mph). I just retured from a 250 mile trip to the mountains - driving up in the middle of the day with virtually no traffic, I ran at speeds from 80-110mph (the car is made to run on the autobahn at speeds much higher than 110mph) and acheived just a tick under 25mpg. Now, that's probably an exception rather than the rule, but the point is that .... well, I kind of lost my train of thought, but it sure was fun watching people come up behind me at 75 or 80 mph and watch their jaws drop when I accelerated away.

Now, if we can just get rid of those dang underutilized, social-engineering experiments known as carpool lanes, I'll be happy.

In the end people like yourself should pay $5K to $10K extra today for any thing that does not deliver 25mpg or better via the EPA. This could have been introduced over the last twenty or 30 years to make it easier for you. But I suggest a $10K to $15K a year tax next year for any care since 2001 that does not meet at least 25mpg highway, according to the EPA. Funds to be split between finding other means of energy to drive our economy, and the balance to make up of for the excesses that the rest cost us at the pump today.

 

[highres]

BIGGER is better right? C'mon the rest of the known world is paying for it, fill'er up!!

 

[SharksFan22]

In the end people like yourself should pay $5K to $10K extra today for any thing that does not deliver 25mpg or better via the EPA. This could have been introduced over the last twenty or 30 years to make it easier for you. But I suggest a $10K to $15K a year tax next year for any care since 2001 that does not meet at least 25mpg highway, according to the EPA. Funds to be split between finding other means of energy to drive our economy, and the balance to make up of for the excesses that the rest cost us at the pump today.

Wow, I understand you're passionate with your opinion, but I humbly ask why someone should pay an arbitrary amount just because they get less than 25mpg. I think I see where you're going and agree with it, I just disagree with the methodology. And, while I'm not a real SUV fan myself, I believe that if soemone wants to use a vehicle that consumes more energy per mile than another, they should only pay for that incremental use. Doing so keeps things level and spreads the pain out equally.

I would suggest that through the gradual tax on gasoline that goes back into roads and only roads. Once the automakers lose all their sales of low-mileage cars due to the rising gas taxes, forcing them to figure out how to make fuel efficient "saleable" cars. I think at that point, we'll see your goal of ridding the roads of SUVs due to attrition as well as alternative energy sources coming to market due to demand.

edit - fixed typos

 

[aloofman]

And, while I'm not a real SUV fan myself, I believe that if soemone wants to use a vehicle that consumes more energy per mile than another, they should only pay for that incremental use. Doing so keeps things level and spreads the pain out equally.

States could also charge more in registration fees based on how much gasoline they use, or total pollution, or both. Normally I'm not in favor of using taxes for social engineering, but I really believe that this change will be forced upon us eventually. So we might as well smooth the bumps and keep a little bit more of that revenue here instead of in the hands of some dictator.

 

[aloofman]

The demand has been so strong for Prius's that Toyota can't make them fast enough.

This is true, but not entirely accurate. Toyota hasn't made them fast enough because they underestimated demand, but sales expectations were pretty low to begin with. Toyota wisely kept production low until the market proved there really was demand for a hybrid car. And there's the side benefit of being able to add a dealer markup.

But it's really more the lack of supply at work here than great demand. While everything we hear is that the Prius is this hot car, Toyota sold a little more than 50,000 of them last year. Even if sales were to explode to 100,000 by next year, this would still be a fraction of the number of Corollas they sell. And it's way, way smaller than the number of F-series trucks sold by Ford. Out of 17 million cars sold in the U.S., Prius sales are not seriously hurting the Big Three at this point.

I guess I just get tired of hearing that hybrids are our savior from Big Oil when it's clearly not. The Prius is a neat car and I'm glad it's selling well. But this is just the very early stages of a long trend. It's not saving the world any more than the Hummer is destroying it.

 

[SpookTheHamster]

You Americans can quit your whining, it costs £1 a litre here in the UK.

I honestly don't understand the big-truck culture of the USA, most of your excuses are a whole load of crap, too.

First there's the "but we need the room inside" excuse: The people that design SUVs have the amazing ability to make something that is absolutely huge on the outside have as little room as possible. A hatchback normally has more room, I know my sisters Focus is more roomy and comfortable Jeep Cherokee.

Or the towing excuse; If you're towing a caravan or a horse box you're wasting most of the capacity of an engine with such high torque. Most of the sensible towers buy an estate car; You get lots of room inside, a large boot (trunk), good towing ability and you don't look like a school-run mum.

I can understand people that do actually need one: People that live down horrendous dirt roads or constantly have to travel such roads. But why would these people want leather massage seats, sat nav and cruise control? Toyota Land Cruisers and Land Rover Defenders are real SUVs.

If you're still an imbecile, and you can't tear yourself away from the SUV, get the Lexus Hybrid

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I guess I just get tired of hearing that hybrids are our savior from Big Oil when it's clearly not. The Prius is a neat car and I'm glad it's selling well. But this is just the very early stages of a long trend. It's not saving the world any more than the Hummer is destroying it.

This isn't about saving the world or fighting "Big Oil" - it's about money, of course. Specifically, saving the consumer money on fuel costs. The reduction of fuel consumption is an because it is wasteful is weaker market pressure than the reduction in fuel consumption due to high fuel costs.

The Prius, like the Insight, Civic hybrid and Escape hybrid, is a car that is motr important than its sales numbers show. These first generation hybrids are truly practical and their job is to establish the hybrid as a proven concept in the marketplace.

They might not be ready to take on the whole auto market, but they give the hybrid concept credibility with the consumer, and pave the way for further developmenst of the hybrid concept.

Many people talk about having a gas guzzler tax, the proceeds of which would be used to subsidize hybrid development or other "green" transportation alternatives - but if the first couple generations of hybrid cars keep improving their sales they may become profitiable in their own right as the technology matures.

 

[camomac]

i am glad i get 60 - 65 mpg on my vespa.
my only worry is the soccer moms driving these freak'n suv's
that try to push their way into my lane...

<begin rant>

maybe the world will start driving more scooter/motorcycles
and these jackasses will begin to pay more attention to
people on two wheels!

</rant>

 

[quagmire]

Yikes, that's nasty.

It would helped a little if they would have showed a black one, and not a "Members Only" gold colored one.

Lame.

$50k? For an SUV? An AMERICAN SUV? Hah, I'll take a Benz or Bimmer, thanks.

Yeah the color sucks. It will be around $32K for base for Tahoe. American cars and SUV's are reliable so stop pushing the American=crap stuff. Especially the Tahoe/Suburban, Silverado.

 

[vixapphire]

This is the common American sentiment.

ahem, last time i checked, the Mercedes Benz E55 AMG station wagon i bought 2 weeks ago was made in Germany, not America. Moreover, MB imports only 150 of these things per year to the USA, but sells loads of them over in Europe.

The car has a 5.5 ltr supercharged engine that is ridiculously powerful, but gas mileage isn't much better than an SUV -- i'm getting mid-teens in the city.

It's all us Americans' fault, though, isn't it? Please don't tell me that the Euro's make these cars for the American market, because the volume imported v. sold in Europe blows a hole in the hull of that argument.

Personally, I like a lot of GM's recent work: the Cadillac rejuvenation is really delightful to look at, as are many other models throughout the various lines (Solstice, Vette, etc.). And the interior of that truck quagmire posted sure is a hella improvement over the last generation.

My main gripe with American autos (and I recently owned a Jaguar/Ford S type "R" and an '02 Cadillac DTS) is that the interior materials and fitments are less than delightful. For the money, and in the market, of luxury cars like the Jag ($63k sticker) and the new Caddy XLR roadster ($76k base sticker), one expects more than door panels that really look like plastic/vinyl, and that glossy/overshined wood (on the Caddy's) that screams "plastique".

My new Benz has some rubberish injection-molded dashboard, but it still manages to affect a look and feel execution that dusts even the XLR or new STS, which are ostensibly GM's most ambitious efforts to date. Not to say that the GM stuff isn't very good (it is, truth be told); it's just not in the same league when you start to a/b it against the competition.

I think GM's play will leave it with most of the truck market should Ford drop the ball and go urban (i.e. hybrids, downsizing, etc.). On the other hand, if the diesel wave comes back, we'll again see a bunch of hyper-turbo'd diesel duallie trucks out in the back country doing their thing, and the rest of us in the cities will, as always, be free to drive the miniature hybrid cars to our hearts' content.

But my overall impression after reading a couple pages of this thread is that not enough people here spend any significant amounts of time outside of cities, at least when they're in America. I hear more cultural snobbery and intolerance and sanctimonious enviro-harping here than much in the way of enlightened discourse. Not that that's any different than what's on cable talk shows or congressional debates anymore, anyhow.

What a pathetic polity we've become, and from such high ideals.

v

 

[vixapphire]

I will agree though that if the goal is to consume less gas on a per vehicle basis via better mileage, then the CAFE standards should be raised. .

Thanks for playing. The problem with CAFE is that everytime it's tried, the Big 3 work around it.

Question: what is the Geo Prism?
Answer: a rebadged Toyota Corolla!
Question: what is the Dodge Stealth?
Answer: a rebadged Mitsubishi!
Question: what is the Ford Probe?
Answer: a rebadged/bodied Mazda 6!
Question: what is the Pontiac Vibe?
Answer: a rebadged Toyota Matrix!

see, the "A" in CAFE stands for "average", which means they can license in some rebranded low-end merch and continue with their own mfg capacity fully devoted to the bloated trucksters that make driving visibility such a pain in the arse. until someone figures out a way to rejigger CAFE so it actually means something, color me skeptical.

 

[vixapphire]

Actually the Focus is a great car, with excellent handling, good looks (in hatchback form) and good fuel economy. Fit and finish is on par with the Japanese. The only reason people think the Civic or Corolla are superior is badge snobbery, which is a shame.

I thought the Focus was originally built for/marketed in Europe as the Ford "Ka"? What a great name that is, by the way. Loads cooler/funnier than "Focus", and probably would attract some of the hipster cache currently owned by cars like the mini and the "new" beetle...

 

[vixapphire]

The pressure is on for the Big 3. They NEED a big hybrid, because if they don't start developing something to compete, the Japanese will wipe the floor with them.

Then we'll have to waste taxpayer dollars bailing the failing American auto industry out, just like we did for United Airlines and other air carriers. I say, if these companies can't compete, let them die. Capitalism WORKS in America.

With you 100% mang. I think the Lexus 330 is already out in hybrid form (or it's coming very soon, but i could've sworn i parked next to the "h" model last week), which means, to borrow Arch Obler's famous phrase, "It's getting later than you thinnnnk"... The warning bell's ringing in Detroit; is anyone doing anything about it, and how quickly?

 

[vixapphire]

In the end people like yourself should pay $5K to $10K extra today for any thing that does not deliver 25mpg or better via the EPA. This could have been introduced over the last twenty or 30 years to make it easier for you. But I suggest a $10K to $15K a year tax next year for any care since 2001 that does not meet at least 25mpg highway, according to the EPA. Funds to be split between finding other means of energy to drive our economy, and the balance to make up of for the excesses that the rest cost us at the pump today.

people who buy less fuel-efficient cars already pay a "gas-guzzler tax", which is calculated as some percentage of the sticker on the vehicle. $10 to 15k per year is ridiculous: if that's to be the case, people could go out, buy a couple-years-old corolla or escort, beat the tar out of it for a year, throw it away on one of those eco-unfriendly dumps/landfills, and buy another, all for less money. that's the best you can do?

hint: avoid beginning from the position that someone must be punished. it makes you sound small and envious, even though you're not. all that jabberwocky about politics being perception has a grain of truth to it, after all.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I thought the Focus was originally built for/marketed in Europe as the Ford "Ka"? What a great name that is, by the way. Loads cooler/funnier than "Focus", and probably would attract some of the hipster cache currently owned by cars like the mini and the "new" beetle...

Nope, the Ka is actually a completely different Ka, er, car. Smaller, for one thing.

I can't imagine selling it in the 'States - they'd have to change the name for Massachusetts residents.

 

[vixapphire]

You Americans can quit your whining, it costs £1 a litre here in the UK.

I honestly don't understand the big-truck culture of the USA, most of your excuses are a whole load of crap, too.

First there's the "but we need the room inside" excuse: The people that design SUVs have the amazing ability to make something that is absolutely huge on the outside have as little room as possible. A hatchback normally has more room, I know my sisters Focus is more roomy and comfortable Jeep Cherokee.

Or the towing excuse; If you're towing a caravan or a horse box you're wasting most of the capacity of an engine with such high torque. Most of the sensible towers buy an estate car; You get lots of room inside, a large boot (trunk), good towing ability and you don't look like a school-run mum.

I can understand people that do actually need one: People that live down horrendous dirt roads or constantly have to travel such roads. But why would these people want leather massage seats, sat nav and cruise control? Toyota Land Cruisers and Land Rover Defenders are real SUVs.

If you're still an imbecile, and you can't tear yourself away from the SUV, get the Lexus Hybrid

Right said fred. Wagons rule for any kind of capacity needs. I'm always amazed at how much of the miniscule interior space of these SUV's is wasted/unusable. I looked at the new Range Rover Sport Supercharged the other day and couldn't believe that, not only does it have next to zero rear legroom, it's got a trunk smaller than my wife's bimmer 325 wagon! The thing is huge from the outside, weighs 5500lbs and gets turd-burgling gas mileage; and for what, really? all that for image? I'd rather spend the $75k on a 2 year old SL500 if it's all just about appearances...

 

[cr2sh]

Yeah the color sucks. It will be around $32K for base for Tahoe. American cars and SUV's are reliable so stop pushing the American=crap stuff. Especially the Tahoe/Suburban, Silverado.

I would agree that initial quality on Suburbans/Silverados is high... however the reliability is up for debate. We've been having a lot of problems with our 2002 Silverado 2500 HD's. My truck is being serviced right now (blown head gasket) and I can think many other problems we've had with them. In total, 10 at this office and the long term (most at or near 100,000 miles) history of these trucks have not been fantastic. This hasn't always been the case.. we've been a chevy only company for about 20 years now, but the batch that we're starting to get rid of now haven't been that great. There are at least two that had a reasonable shot at getting lemoned, I would think.

 

[SharksFan22]

I thought the Focus was originally built for/marketed in Europe as the Ford "Ka"? What a great name that is, by the way. Loads cooler/funnier than "Focus", and probably would attract some of the hipster cache currently owned by cars like the mini and the "new" beetle...

Nope -- the Ka is a different, even smaller vehicle. When I was in Brazil these things were all over the streets of Sao Paulo.

 

[vixapphire]

i am glad i get 60 - 65 mpg on my vespa.
my only worry is the soccer moms driving these freak'n suv's
that try to push their way into my lane...

<begin rant>

maybe the world will start driving more scooter/motorcycles
and these jackasses will begin to pay more attention to
people on two wheels!

</rant>

one of your vespa-riding brethren came barrelling out of his parking garage without looking both ways the other day and nearly ruined my week-old new wagon. he ditched his bike, scuffed his nice harris tweed suit and missed my car (which was driving safely within the limit, on my own side of the road, etc.) by mere millimetres.

further to your statement, perhaps *those* jackasses will begin to pay more attention to people in four-wheeled vehicles too. remember, there's no monopoly on jackassery!

v

p.s. let me add that I was damn glad the guy was uninjured and was able to get up, start his bike and ride away. The door panel of my car was not exactly my greatest of worries as the guy disappeared beneath my window-line; he really could've farg'd himself up pretty nastily.

 

[quagmire]

I would agree that initial quality on Suburbans/Silverados is high... however the reliability is up for debate. We've been having a lot of problems with our 2002 Silverado 2500 HD's. My truck is being serviced right now (blown head gasket) and I can think many other problems we've had with them. In total, 10 at this office and the long term (most at or near 100,000 miles) history of these trucks have not been fantastic. This hasn't always been the case.. we've been a chevy only company for about 20 years now, but the batch that we're starting to get rid of now haven't been that great. There are at least two that had a reasonable shot at getting lemoned, I would think.

Ouch. You got some lemons. Well I have had a 1996 Chevy Suburban. It ran great. 0 problems with it besides the regular maintenance( oil. tires, etc). Then 9/11 came around and I decided to take advantage of the good deals due to 9/11 and traded the Suburban in at 82,000 miles and got a 2002 Suburban. Same story so far with the current one. Zero problems besides regular maintenance. Currently at 50,000+ miles. Plan on getting the new Tahoe around next fall. Sure I will get a lemon one day from GM. I am not problem free proof. Sorry about your trouble. What engines do they have? The 5.3 V8, 6.0 V8, or the diesel, or the 4.3 V6?

Personally, I like a lot of GM's recent work: the Cadillac rejuvenation is really delightful to look at, as are many other models throughout the various lines (Solstice, Vette, etc.). And the interior of that truck quagmire posted sure is a hella improvement over the last generation.

My main gripe with American autos (and I recently owned a Jaguar/Ford S type "R" and an '02 Cadillac DTS) is that the interior materials and fitments are less than delightful. For the money, and in the market, of luxury cars like the Jag ($63k sticker) and the new Caddy XLR roadster ($76k base sticker), one expects more than door panels that really look like plastic/vinyl, and that glossy/overshined wood (on the Caddy's) that screams "plastique".

Well I agree about the interiors. As you see though GM is making HUGE improvements in that area. Some could say bigger then the quality improvement. The new Tahoe, the HHR, the H3, the new Impala, and other new or redesigned vehicles recently have gotten huge improvements in interior job. Even the new 2006 DTS( that replaces your 2002 Deville) has a great interior. Oh yeah, the GMC Yukon will be unveiled October 5th, and the Escalade will be unveiled in sometime in November.

 

[aloofman]

This isn't about saving the world or fighting "Big Oil" - it's about money, of course. Specifically, saving the consumer money on fuel costs.

The case for saving money on gas by buying a Prius is not a great one because of the batteries. The extra cost of the batteries and more complex drivetrain offset much of the gasoline savings right off the bat. About six months ago I heard some studies saying that it would have to be driven about 100,000 miles before that investment is returned. Of course gasoline was cheaper then, but either way you're basically paying for the first few years' difference in gasoline right up front.

As long as you drive it for that long, yes, you'll save money on gasoline. This is assuming that the batteries don't need to be replaced before then, but even when they are replaced, that cost goes against your gasoline expenditures again.

My point is not that hybrids suck or that the technology is a scam or anything like that. My point is that if you really wanted to save money on gasoline, there are other economy cars that get very good mileage without the extra cost that a hybrid has. That extra cost means that buying a hybrid is more about you making a personal/social/political statement about conserving gasoline (nothing wrong with that) than it is about saving money. As economies of scale get better, hybrids will surely get cheaper relative to gasoline-only cars and then it really will be about saving money.

 

[aloofman]

You Americans can quit your whining, it costs £1 a litre here in the UK.

I honestly don't understand the big-truck culture of the USA, most of your excuses are a whole load of crap, too.

I can understand people that do actually need one: People that live down horrendous dirt roads or constantly have to travel such roads. But why would these people want leather massage seats, sat nav and cruise control? Toyota Land Cruisers and Land Rover Defenders are real SUVs.

You replied off my post, but I can't tell if you're refuting something I said. Anyway, I agree that SUVs are mostly a culture thing and have little to do with utility for most people.

I also agree that Land Rover makes real SUVs. Assuming you can keep one running. All the ones shipped over here are driven by people with more money than sense.

 

[aloofman]

Thanks for playing. The problem with CAFE is that everytime it's tried, the Big 3 work around it.

Question: what is the Geo Prism?
Answer: a rebadged Toyota Corolla!
Question: what is the Dodge Stealth?
Answer: a rebadged Mitsubishi!
Question: what is the Ford Probe?
Answer: a rebadged/bodied Mazda 6!
Question: what is the Pontiac Vibe?
Answer: a rebadged Toyota Matrix!

see, the "A" in CAFE stands for "average", which means they can license in some rebranded low-end merch and continue with their own mfg capacity fully devoted to the bloated trucksters that make driving visibility such a pain in the arse. until someone figures out a way to rejigger CAFE so it actually means something, color me skeptical.

The rebranding you're describing does nothing to diminish the CAFE standards. Each company's fleet of sold cars has to average a certain amount. The Geo's mileage counts on GM's average, but they still have to sell them. Likewise, it does not count on Toyota's average (although I think it might actually be made by Suzuki, but I could be wrong), so Toyota still has to make other higher mileage cars to meet the average.

What this rebranding really does is show that the Big Three aren't very good at building their own economy cars. But then we knew that already didn't we?

 

[camomac]

further to your statement, perhaps *those* jackasses will begin to pay more attention to people in four-wheeled vehicles too. remember, there's no monopoly on jackassery!

agreed completely! but there are definately more people on four wheels than there are on two, so the jackassery (what a word) scale is a little skewed...