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Why would I waste my time on 10 or 12 cars of different brands when i've found one i like? I still think American cars are mostly crap.

Then keep your trap shut because you know nothing about the cars the OP is asking about.
You have no place even commenting in this thread as your opinion is worthless.

And don't get me started on i-Drive…..the Worst unified system in the auto world today.

Exactly how many cars have YOU bought with your own money, not mummy and daddy's?

Go away and leave the adults to responsibly answer questions for which you are inadequate.
 
I tested a number of them. Subarus are eye sores with disappointing performance. It says a lot that their best car was designed by Toyota.

Eyesore is a personal opinion and it may depend on which vehicle you're talking about. I think the Outback looks tons better than the current CR-V. Keep in mind, we're not talking about your luxury BMW, Subaru still expects their SUV owners will actually drive OFF PAVEMENT to some extent. What vehicle was designed by Toyota? Subaru is actually owned by Fuji Heavy Industries, which does have Toyota as a part owner (8.4% if it matters).

To be honest, performance isn't goal #1 for me, and it isn't for Subaru either. They focus on economical vehicles that meet a low price point without compromising overall quality. When I can go from a 200 HP V-6 sedan to a 170 HP 4-cylinder in an SUV with a total vehicle weight within 500 lbs higher than the sedan AND AWD (more drag) and get 20% better fuel economy with a nearly imperceptible performance difference for day to day driving, I'll take it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure BMW's are nice, for those that can afford them. A Subaru is a GREAT vehicle for those of us not in the "1%".
 
Eyesore is a personal opinion and it may depend on which vehicle you're talking about. I think the Outback looks tons better than the current CR-V. Keep in mind, we're not talking about your luxury BMW, Subaru still expects their SUV owners will actually drive OFF PAVEMENT to some extent.

I concede I was a bit harsh on Subaru. I would never buy a BMW. The current CR-V is great.

What vehicle was designed by Toyota? Subaru is actually owned by Fuji Heavy Industries, which does have Toyota as a part owner (8.4% if it matters).

Subaru BRZ is lauded as the best car in Subaru's fleet. Designed as the Toyota 86.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure BMW's are nice, for those that can afford them. A Subaru is a GREAT vehicle for those of us not in the "1%".

I completely understand. BMWs are expensive in every aspect of ownership. I wouldn't go as far as saying they're for the 1% (do you know how much money the 1% makes?). A lot of white collar jobs can accommodate a BMW.
 
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I tested a number of them. Subarus are eye sores with disappointing performance. It says a lot that their best car was designed by Toyota.

Eye sores? That's all subjective. Whether you like the visual appearance of a car or not is a complete matter of opinion.

Disappointing performance? Well, that's just not true. Subaru is one of the top brands in the reliability and crash test ratings year after year. Consumer reports top 5 brands for reliability for 2012 were Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Subaru, and Acura (in that order).

The new 2014 Forester is also the top rated compact SUV in crash testing.

The 2014 Subaru Forester was the only one of 13 compact crossovers and S.U.V.’s to earn the highest rating in a new, more severe front crash test by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The new Forester was rated Good, and the 2013 Mitsubishi Outlander Sport received the next-highest rating, Acceptable.

The insurance institute, which is financed by the insurance industry, began conducting the new test, called the small overlap test, in 2012. The results are rated on a scale of Good, Acceptable, Marginal and Poor. Vehicles are rated separately for their structure, for how well the driver dummy is restrained and for potential injuries to the dummy. Those are combined into the overall rating.

Moreover, the redesigned Forester was the first vehicle of 47 tested to date to receive Good ratings in all of those categories.

The Legacy, Outback, and Forester are 3 of the only 20 cars currently in production to be rated a Top Safety Pick+ by IIHS, and Subaru is the only manufacturer with more than 2 models that are a TSP+. Honda was 2nd with 2 TSP+ models (Civic and Accord).

Also, if you really think Subaru's have "disappointing performance", try driving one in the snow. Their symmetrical AWD system is second to none. Or take a WRX STi out for a drive.
 
Then keep your trap shut because you know nothing about the cars the OP is asking about.
You have no place even commenting in this thread as your opinion is worthless.

And don't get me started on i-Drive…..the Worst unified system in the auto world today.

Exactly how many cars have YOU bought with your own money, not mummy and daddy's?

Go away and leave the adults to responsibly answer questions for which you are inadequate.
You sound butt hurt. Enjoy your inferior car.
 
You sound butt hurt. Enjoy your inferior car.

Tell you what….bring that almighty BMW that daddy and mummy bought you to VIR and I'll spank their bemmer all day long with an "inferior" Ford Mustang…..after that I'll spank it with the wife's Escape.

To much for you, then bring it to Thunder Valley in June…..you CAN drive a straight line right?

...make it happen after all you've got the 'better' car, now prove it.

You know what they say…..BS walks when Horse Power talks.
 
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Tell you what….bring that almighty BMW that daddy and mummy bought you to VIR and I'll spank their bemmer all day long with an "inferior" Ford Mustang…..after that I'll spank it with the wife's Escape.

Lol, that's adorable. Keep humoring me. Fords huh? The lowest of the american garbage cars. It's funny how you keep emphasizing that i didn't buy my car myself as if that bothers you. Are you jealous or resentful or something? You seem really bothered. And if you think your go-carts have anything on my beamer, you're delusional. I wipe my ass with mustangs. :) Don't take your poor decisions out on me. Also, life isn't all about speed. A raceway test means nothing for real life daily performance. We don't have an autobahn in this country so it's a moot point. Even if my car is faster.

By the way, this quote is from the thread about teenagers and cars...

My daughter's Ford Escape had a head that cracked while she was accelerating from a stop right behind me. Weak aluminum.

Kinda proves my point. American cars have problems that owners of foreign cars wouldn't dream of.
 
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You sound butt hurt. Enjoy your inferior car.

lol. How does this contribute to the discussion at all?

The fact remains that BMW's cost more for the same features as other cars, cost more to insure, and cost more to repair.

It's a fancy money pit basically. I've been out car shopping with my grandfather lately, he looked at the 328i, Passat TDI, Accord, TL, and Legacy, and the "luxury" features are nearly identical in all of them. No way you can say that the BMW is anymore "luxury" than any of those other cars fully-loaded. They just cost more money to buy, insure, and fix, and are less reliable than Hondas, Acuras, and Subarus.


What I do think is kind of ironic is that the guy you are arguing with is advocating for a Ford. Ford came in DEAD LAST in Consumer Reports 2012 reliability ratings.
 
lol. How does this contribute to the discussion at all?
It contributes the same amount as the comment it was in response to.

The fact remains that BMW's cost more for the same features as other cars, cost more to insure, and cost more to repair.

It's a fancy money pit basically. I've been out car shopping with my grandfather lately, he looked at the 328i, Passat TDI, Accord, TL, and Legacy, and the "luxury" features are nearly identical in all of them. No way you can say that the BMW is anymore "luxury" than any of those other cars fully-loaded. They just cost more money to buy, insure, and fix, and are less reliable than Hondas, Acuras, and Subarus.


What I do think is kind of ironic is that the guy you are arguing with is advocating for a Ford. Ford came in DEAD LAST in Consumer Reports 2012 reliability ratings.

It's about quality of drive. Sure everyone can have a navigation system or crap like that, and it does cost more on a BMW. I've driven various cars, no one can come close to the way a BMW hugs the road. It's just never the same. You truly to get what you pay for. And that counts for cars the same way it does for computers. Mine is leased so actually it DOESN'T cost more to maintain than any other car. Maintenance is all included. But I do agree that japanese cars are probably more reliable than BMW. Notice how your grandfather doesn't look at American cars.
 
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It contributes the same amount as the comment it was in response to.



It's about quality of drive. Sure everyone can have a navigation system or crap like that, and it does cost more on a BMW. I've driven various cars, no one can come close to the way a BMW hugs the road. It's just never the same. You truly to get what you pay for. And that counts for cars the same way it does for computers. Mine is leased so actually it DOESN'T cost more to maintain than any other car. Maintenance is all included. But I do agree that japanese cars are probably more reliable than BMW. Notice how your grandfather doesn't look at American cars.

Your argument is strong for BMW if OP is considering leasing. It would appear that it is far smarter to lease a German car than it is to buy one at this point. Meanwhile, I would love a BMW but I don't want to pay for the maintenance. As a result, I went Japanese.

In short, y'all are just arguing in circles and neither of you is right or wrong.
 
Kinda proves my point. American cars have problems that owners of foreign cars wouldn't dream of.

And my dads old Toyota Corolla blew a head gasket at 30,000 miles.

Toyota's must be unreliable now that one vehicle had a defect.....
 
No, I just hear about these random little problems more from american car owners.

So here's the thing about this statement. The average human being is close to at most about 150 people. Even if EVERY PERSON you know OR you ever met had problems with their American cars, you do not have the statistical leverage to claim that all American cars have problems foreign cars don't.
 
So here's the thing about this statement. The average human being is close to at most about 150 people. Even if EVERY PERSON you know OR you ever met had problems with their American cars, you do not have the statistical leverage to claim that all American cars have problems foreign cars don't.

By this logic no one should have an opinion on anything. I'm not backing off my opinion that american cars tend to be crap.
 

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/10/most-reliable-new-cars/index.htm

Only two years ago, Ford was Detroit’s poster child for reliability. It cracked the top 10 among brands in our predicted--reliability scores, with more than 90 percent of its models being average or better. Since then, a perfect storm of reliability problems has dropped Ford to next to last among the 28 brands in our survey. And Lincoln, Ford’s luxury brand, placed just a notch higher.

Toyota, on the other hand, excelled in our latest ratings. Its three brands—Scion, Toyota, and Lexus—swept the top spots. They were followed by four other Japanese makes: Mazda, Subaru, Honda, and Acura. All of the models produced by the top seven brands had average or better reliability. And of the 90 Japanese models reflected in our brand comparison, 86 were average or better, with 35 earning the highest rating.

Those findings from our 2012 Annual Auto Survey are based on subscribers’ experiences with 1.2 million vehicles. We use that extensive data to predict how well new cars that are currently on sale will hold up.

Several factors contributed to Ford’s decline. A few new or redesigned models, including the Explorer, Fiesta, and Focus, came out of the gate with more problems than normal. Ford has also added the MyFord/MyLincoln Touch electronic infotainment system, which has been problematic so far, to many vehicles. In addition, three historically reliable models—the Ford Escape and Fusion and the Lincoln MKZ—are not included in the analysis. They were redesigned for 2013, and we don’t know how the new versions will fare.

The only brand worse than Ford in their 2012 survey was Jaguar... which (coincidence or not) was owned by Ford until a few years ago.
 
Lol, that's adorable. Keep humoring me. Fords huh? The lowest of the american garbage cars. It's funny how you keep emphasizing that i didn't buy my car myself as if that bothers you. Are you jealous or resentful or something? You seem really bothered. And if you think your go-carts have anything on my beamer, you're delusional. I wipe my ass with mustangs. :) Don't take your poor decisions out on me. Also, life isn't all about speed. A raceway test means nothing for real life daily performance. We don't have an autobahn in this country so it's a moot point. Even if my car is faster.

By the way, this quote is from the thread about teenagers and cars...



Kinda proves my point. American cars have problems that owners of foreign cars wouldn't dream of.

Proves your point how….all cars break and yours will too. But that's ok daddy will have it fixed for you.

So a car is a status symbol to you and you've never bought your own or learned to wrench…..my my my. So how did you become such an authority on automobiles? PC games and YouTube videos?

Bought my first car when I turned 15, a '57 Chevy, been building and racing ever since. Whats your automotive experience….. something like Gran Turismo on a play station?

My guess is that you really aren't even old enough to drive. If you were you could take me up on the challenge.

Your out'a your league sonny boy and have no credibility automotive wise.
 
I'm judging by consumer reports for 2012.

What brought Ford down in 2012 was issues with sync/myfordtouch.

Plus, I hate consumer reports. Can't be scientific if their data only comes from subscribers.

Back on the BMW point, my dads old E46 330xi blew a water pump at 45,000 miles, needed a pulley at 70,000 miles among other things. My brother currently has it now with about 130,000 miles and he is barely able to keep it going. My dad currently has an E90 335xi. At 25,000 miles the computer broke, and 45,000 miles the door locks broke. Currently at 58,000 miles. Granted the items at the high mileage are going due to the mileage. But, they are extremely expensive to fix. The only reason why the E46 is still running is because my brother can do the work himself.

But when it comes time to replace the E90, my dad will be replacing it with the Cadillac ATS. He is tired of BMW's cost of maintenance. Plus, we both find the ATS to be the better vehicle to drive.
 
By this logic no one should have an opinion on anything. I'm not backing off my opinion that american cars tend to be crap.

I accept that people should have opinions, but I have the right to tell you that your opinion, as of late, is invalid. You're criticizing people discussing American cars for them not being imports.

It's my opinion that American cars have immensely improved and that in many cases they are more reliable than German cars and often more economical and a better bang for your buck than Japanese cars. I base this opinion on reviews across the internet.

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What brought Ford down in 2012 was issues with sync/myfordtouch.

Plus, I hate consumer reports. Can't be scientific if their data only comes from subscribers.

Exactly. Also, they focus on reliability, which is only part of the whole picture.
 
Exactly. Also, they focus on reliability, which is only part of the whole picture.

It's a pretty big part of the picture. A car is pretty damn useless if the thing isn't reliable and has things breaking all of the time.
 
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/10/most-reliable-new-cars/index.htm



The only brand worse than Ford in their 2012 survey was Jaguar... which (coincidence or not) was owned by Ford until a few years ago.

No scientific data. Consumer reports is a survey.

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It's a pretty big part of the picture. A car is pretty damn useless if the thing isn't reliable and has things breaking all of the time.

No one would buy an Audi if this were true.
 
It's a pretty big part of the picture. A car is pretty damn useless if the thing isn't reliable and has things breaking all of the time.

Agree it's a part of the big picture, but when the issues are software than mechanical, it's a bit misleading. Sure Ford's entertainment system isn't the best( hey iDrive wasn't that great either when it came out), but you can't use the issues with it to say Ford's reliability sucks.
 
Proves your point how….all cars break and yours will too. But that's ok daddy will have it fixed for you.

So a car is a status symbol to you and you've never bought your own or learned to wrench…..my my my. So how did you become such an authority on automobiles? PC games and YouTube videos?

Bought my first car when I turned 15, a '57 Chevy, been building and racing ever since. Whats your automotive experience….. something like Gran Turismo on a play station?

My guess is that you really aren't even old enough to drive. If you were you could take me up on the challenge.

Your out'a your league sonny boy and have no credibility automotive wise.

LOL, ok. Keep going with your pathetic sounding jealousy. Your guess is wrong because I'm 24 and on my fourth car. But you're on my ignore list now because arguing with you is a waste of time. Keep buying 'Merican, like i said, enjoy your inferior cars. I don't make it a habit to continue mundane arguments with people from the interwebs who are on an intellectual level below my own. Sonny boy? How frickin old are you? Your idea of a good car is one that you can mess around with under the hood to get one extra horsepower out of it, that's not my idea of a good car.
 
Agree it's a part of the big picture, but when the issues are software than mechanical, it's a bit misleading. Sure Ford's entertainment system isn't the best( hey iDrive wasn't that great either when it came out), but you can't use the issues with it to say Ford's reliability sucks.

Agreed. There's a big difference between a broken window on a Ford and an Audi crapping out its transmission.
 
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