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2008-09 Football Thread - The Second Half
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It looks like Keano will actually move closer to Ipswich, which is a good thing since I think commuting from Cheshire would get old in a hurry. Maybe the Ipswich area is a little nicer than Sunderland?
Meanwhile, Southampton are in bother they've been docked 10 points for financial naughtiness.
If they are relegated then the points will be deducted from next season's tally, if they stay up they'll be taken off their total for this campaign. Either way, it's going to be League One football on the Solent next season.
If they are relegated then the points will be deducted from next season's tally, if they stay up they'll be taken off their total for this campaign. Either way, it's going to be League One football on the Solent next season.
On the plus side, if Forest do stay up I'll have the chance to go to see City play at the City Ground next season – I've not been there for a few years.Damn, this might help Forest stay up.
No, think positive – we're staying up!
I take it you're a Magpie then?
On the plus side, if Forest do stay up I'll have the chance to go to see City play at the City Ground next season I've not been there for a few years.
No, think positive we're staying up!
I take it you're a Magpie then?
Yes for my sins, it has certainly been a long season and although we are safe it hasn't been a season of progress.
If things don't improve by October I think it may be time to get a new man in charge.
If you do end up playing the tricky trees next year, just think of it as 6 easy points.
Meanwhile, Phil Brown and Cesc Fabregas have been charged by the FA for the aftermath of the Arsenal vs City FA Cup tie. Brown being charged due to the comments he made about the officials was to be expected, but it seems that the evidence Hull City submitted proves the Arsenal captain did indeed spit at Brian Horton in the players tunnel, despite his claims to the contrary...
I love that photo of Fabregas; with the snazzy black jacket and hairdo he looks like John Travolta in Grease.
Question for you Jaffa: I have heard pundits on several podcasts tracing Hull City's troubled form back to your gaffer's unusual on-the-pitch half time talk against Man City. I think it sounds pretty silly myself, but do you think that that incident might have been the beginning of morale/dressing room problems for the Tigers?
Best of luck on the weekend!
Question for you Jaffa: I have heard pundits on several podcasts tracing Hull City's troubled form back to your gaffer's unusual on-the-pitch half time talk against Man City. I think it sounds pretty silly myself, but do you think that that incident might have been the beginning of morale/dressing room problems for the Tigers?
Best of luck on the weekend!
Yes, it's been mentioned a lot that this was the start of our problems, in fact BV mentioned she'd heard a lot of similar opinions a while back.
The general feeling among City supporters though is that the Manchester City team talk didn't have the drastic effect the pundits seem to think. It was a very visible and high profile incident, and I think that the media are showing their usual laziness in just blaming things on that – you wouldn't expect them to actually take the time to look into the matter deeper and work out if there could be any other reasons.
I think it's wrong to say that Brown has totally lost the dressing room off the back of it – to do so ignores a number of facts...
- After our fantastic start, things had started to slow down for us after the home loss to Chelsea at the start of October. We had still been picking up points though, so it wasn't really panic stations.
- Arguably our most abject performance of the season came before half-time at Eastlands – quite literally, it was the first half against Manchester City!
- The next match was against Aston Villa, and the team played very well – we were very unfortunate not to get anything out of that one.
- We went on a poor run of form until we beat Fulham – and at the final whistle the players flocked to the dugout to celebrate the win with their manager. Not the reaction of a group of players who have serious problems with him, I feel.
Another common cry from the pundits is that we've 'been found out' and that we aren't able to take teams by surprise any more. I don't think this has been a huge problem – granted, teams did under estimate us at the state of the season but to say that they were totally unprepared for us suggests that the likes of Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez don't scout and analyse their opposition. This patently isn't the case.
However, it's fair so say that things haven't been going well for Brown – he's made some baffling team selections, and his tactics and formations have lacked the daring and verve that served us so well in the opening months of the season. Many City supporters pinpoint our home match against Sunderland as the start of this – the match before the Manchester City game, so again this can't be blamed on that team talk. As a friend of mine eloquently put it, "Brownie lost his bollocks against Sunderland – big time". So, let's look at potential reasons why things went so wrong for us from Sunderland onwards.
It's fair to say confidence has been an issue – it's common for teams to hit a poor run of form and doubts to start entering heads. The other side of the coin is of course when confidence is high teams can punch above their weight, as we ourselves did. But this is only part of the problem.
I think a massive reason is the January transfer window. We lost Marlon King – not necessarily a bad thing as he was a serious problem in the dressing room – but the major crime is that we didn't replace him with someone of sufficient quality.
We made three signings in January – Bullard, whose injury problem has been well documented, Manucho on loan from Manchester United, who has failed to live up to the standards set by the boy Campbell last season, and Kevin Kilbane who has been solid enough for us, but as a defender come midfielder he's not going to solve our problems in front of goal. One only has to look at Stoke City and their astute acquisitions to see that we were really poor with our transfer dealings. Tony Pulis – despite being a baseball cap wearing buffoon – identified the weaknesses in his squad and took steps to resolve them. We didn't, and in my opinion our poor recruitment is the key reason why we've done so poorly since Christmas.
But I think there may also be another factor – and it's a bit of a left-of-field one this. It might play a part, it may have nothing to do with it – I don't know. But the other night I was mulling over our plight, and something occurred to me. When we were doing great last season, and at the start of this one, there was a regular face at the KC. That face belonged to Sam Allardyce.
He's Brown's mentor, and it's common knowledge that our manager likes to bounce ideas off him. They talk in great detail about what Brown's doing, about tactics and signings and stuff. Indeed, he's been in our changing room before and after quite a few games, most notably the play-off final at Wembley last season. There was even talk of Allardyce taking on a 'Director of Football' role at one point. As I say, Brown's tactics and selections have lacked confidence and daring of late – could this be because he's having to fend for himself now, without Big Sam's advice and reassurance? Certainly, he's not likely to offer Brown the same level of support when he's managing a club in the same division, a potential relegation rival.
This could explain – in part at least – why Brown seems to have lost the plot a bit, why despite the bluster and attempts at mind games he's seemingly lacking confidence in himself. Put simply, perhaps he feels a bit out of his depth without the guidance and approval of his close friend and mentor.
So, how far back does this go? I suppose you could suggest this would have started once Allardyce took over at Blackburn Rovers – he was appointed as their new manager on last December, on the 17th to be precise.
We played Sunderland three days later...
Well said. Sounds like a good breakdown on the situation...the press have said lots of silly things about the promoted clubs this season. Lets not forget that football punditry collectively gave Hull City and Stoke City zero chance of staying up, preferring West Brom. Well, it looks as if the tables have turned....
Would a simple yes/no have done you?
Actually, I was hoping more for a why, which you provided in spades.
Yes yes yes you've done a lot better than me (since 2 weeks ago when we started.) No league games in Scotland this weekend, it's Cup Time. I'll send you a bottle of single malt (SCOTCH!
) if you've done better than me by season end. BTW, why Dumbarton? Any coincidence there is an elephant in teh Sons of teh Rock logo?
F**k me am I meant to read all that? I'm just back from a night out and a wee bit worse for wear. In fact, what am I even doing drunk posting on MR? That's a lot of words for me to read. Can you sumarise it for the lazy/drunk? i.e. a lot of you (Kingston people) are a bit annoyed with Brown due to recent results but teh rest are happy that you are there in the first place.
sh! why did I have those Red Bulls I'm never going to sleep tonight and that satan child of mine will be up at 6am BST. Oh look teh golf is on Setanta.
It's nowt to do with that team talk, we just didn't buy any good, fit players and Phil's feeling a bit lonely.
There you go.
Oh, God, God, God! What on earth was I drinking last night? My head feels like there's a Frenchman living in it.
I was under the impression that Brown going on and on about the alleged spitting (I suppose the media did roll with it too) was just to divert the attention from his teams poor run of form?
It's not something that he's really discussed since the days following the event as far as I'm aware – it's been brought up a few times by the press, his response has been that the matter is in the hands of the FA and as such he's not in a position to discuss it any further.
Of course, there's always the possibility that by attracting media attention onto himself – and it's been highly negative of late – he's trying to insulate the players from press criticism. Sir Alex Ferguson did something slightly similar earlier in the season when he came embroiled in a war of words with Rafa Benitez, ensuring his players weren't under the spotlight ahead of a crucial match. However what Brown is doing is a risky strategy as the press have no qualms about trying to make him look foolish, and he's nowhere near as good at the mind game stuff as Fergie.
Today's Guardian has an interesting interview with Brown – discussing where things have gone wrong this season, naturally Eastlands gets a mention but he's dismissive that the team talk is the root of the problems...
"I'm facing the problems suffered by anyone who does a good job for a while and gets put up on a pedestal," he reflected ahead of today's crucial home game against Liverpool. "We're receiving slightly the wrong kind of press now, but we've won only two games out of 24 and I'm there to be knocked down. I enjoyed it when we were doing well so I understand the deal. We're playing with the big boys on the big stage. I've got to get on with it."
Half-time diatribes are rarely delivered on stages as public and prominent as the Eastlands pitch but Brown, whose side were trailing 4-0, remains unrepentant. "It certainly wasn't a red-mist decision and it got a response," he insisted. "I'm not sure what the difference between a pre-meditated and a knee-jerk decision is but the idea came about the time City's third goal went in. I don't regret it."
Nonetheless, one suspects this stunt will not be repeated. Although the game finished 5–1 to City after an improved *second-half performance, the longer-term legacy involved a blow to dressing-room morale which a February bonding trip to Dubai did not quite repair. While certain players, such as Nick Barmby, kept faith with the undeniably tactically articulate Brown, others were less enamoured and one recently confided: "Some of the lads thought the manager had gone mad at Manchester City."
Whatever his reasoning, the incident left Brown newly vulnerable to criticism. Behaviour which had previously been interpreted as charmingly idiosyncratic was now regarded as irritatingly naff. Suddenly everyone was taking pot shots and even Piers Morgan got in on the act, devoting his newspaper column to a scathing deconstruction of the 49-year‑old's suntan and distinctive sartorial style. "Ah, Piers Morgan," said Brown. "Well, let's say I've got my Christmas card list. And I've never been on a sunbed in my entire life. It's just that I take the rays very easily."
They've also got a sports psychologist to analyse Brown's approach. The boffin descibes Brown as an alpha male. Grrr.
Bolton W. ? - ? Aston Villa
Everton ? - ? Manchester C.
Fulham ? - ? Stoke C.
Hull C. ? - ? Liverpool
West Brom ? - ? Sunderland
West Ham ? - ? Chelsea
Man U. ? - ? Tottenham H.
Today's game. Liverpool need Spurs to do something at Old Trafford to have any chance of getting back into the title race.
Everton ? - ? Manchester C.
Fulham ? - ? Stoke C.
Hull C. ? - ? Liverpool
West Brom ? - ? Sunderland
West Ham ? - ? Chelsea
Man U. ? - ? Tottenham H.
Today's game. Liverpool need Spurs to do something at Old Trafford to have any chance of getting back into the title race.
Well no.
"Alleged spitting incident". The video evidence must relate to him coming onto the pitch after the final whistle, as you can be sure if there was any video evidence of the spitting whatsoever it would be all over the internet by now. The FA apparently have confirmed this view. I don't quite see what he did wrong coming onto the pitch, but I'm sure the FA will find something to throw at him about that. The spitting incident remains completely unproven and alleged.
Also, read this.
Oh, God, God, God! What on earth was I drinking last night? My head feels like there's a Frenchman living in it.
Indeed! You must have been drinking my incredibly strong ale.
Phil Brown said:
It is a rather unusual look; I myself (an American mongrel) tan like Phil Brown, but most of you Englishmen are whiter than ghosts.
I agree - if the FA actually had video evidence of Cesc spitting on someone, you could be certain that they would have probably already taken action. He was smart enough to do it in the tunnel (allegedly, of course
), so it's going to be his word against Brown's.I'm hoping Spurs get something done against United today; I'd be pretty happy with a draw. But Arsenal are probably still going to decide the title. They broke our hearts in 1989, now it's time to spread the love to United's camp and ruin their campaign. Pretty please?
I must confess to being a little confused - the noises in the media indicated that the alledged incident took place in the section of the tunnel not covered by the CCTV cameras. Indeed, Arsene's comments are the first I've heard of the existence of any such footage.
Which raises the question - if Arsenal are in possession of footage which completely exhonorates their captain, why wasn't it submitted to the FA when they were asked for their version of events?
Which raises the question - if Arsenal are in possession of footage which completely exhonorates their captain, why wasn't it submitted to the FA when they were asked for their version of events?
That is a bit odd. The question is, where did the video come from? Maybe it didn't surface until now. Well, if the FA have it now, it's up to them to decide. Hopefully it doesn't affect Cesc's ability to appear against United so they can ruin their title campaign.
I'm suddenly a big Gunners supporter.
Jumping in here as there are a lot of comments to catch up on and I don't have time to read/respond today about those however
Howard Webb totally gave the game to United with that penalty decision. It was a polar opposite game before that but when United got the penalty it gave them the hope that they needed to get into the game.
Howard Webb totally gave the game to United with that penalty decision. It was a polar opposite game before that but when United got the penalty it gave them the hope that they needed to get into the game.
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