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2008/2009 Chevy Camaro concept.

Abstract said:
All true.

Too bad for GM, perception is everything. GM is making some nice(r) models right now than in the past, but it's a little late. They'd have to continue making nice models AND keep the reliability high for at least another 5 years before people believe GM cars are reliable and nice, because even if that's true now, people in the general public don't have that perception now. I don't know about whether GM is doing well right now, but word on the street is that they're not, and that they may get bought out. Also, I don't know if they could hold out for the next 5 or more years without being bought out or going bankrupt.

And about GM making too many car lines and models, that's true as well. I can't even keep up with the number of lines and models they make. It used to be worse, but there are still too many. They should keep the Chevrolet, Pontiac, Cadillac, and their European companies like Saab, but do they really need GMC, Buick, Saturn, etc? Ditch them already. Just sell under several badges, not a dozen. Ford sells Ford cars.
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I agree, except for the brands that need to go. As I said above GMC is the 2nd most profitable division in GM. Right now GM needs all the profits it can get. Saturn is going to replace where Oldsmobile was in the market. Right under Buick and Cadillac. Saturn will be one of keys of GM's revival in NA. And Saturns won't be too hard to produce as many of them are rebadged Opels. The Saturn Aura and Sky are the key models for Saturn right now. I expect both to sell well. Buick is lost in their perception and image. Ford sells Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln cars/SUV's. With Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, and Mazda as their other bought out brands. GM is having Chevy and Cadillac as the only full line up brands, Pontiac will be performance( even though lacking right now), Saab being European style/performance. Hummer being off road and Jeeps competitor, Saturn European style/luxury, Buick is trying to be affordable luxury, and GMC is professional grade trucks and SUV's.

PS: No, I don't work for GM. I am just well informed. :)
 
It's really interesting to get the North American perspective. Down here in Australia, things are totally different. Our primary division of GM (Holden) has flourishing over the past decade but needs to reinvent their main seller (the large Commodore) as petrol prices continue to rise. I have faith they'll manage. :)
 
@Mad Jew: Well I've got both views down pat. ;)


GM thinks it has to keep the brands that it currently has. Why? Buick, like Oldsmobile (which had the audacity to have the word "old" in its name) has such a poor image that it can't be saved unless rappers start using Buicks in rap videos and isht.

Saturn they can keep, but it sorta goes against the quirky little company that I remember from 10 years ago that makes plastic cars that are shopping cart-proof, and have a non-negotiable sticker price, but excellent service. They'd have to work hard and for a very long time to get this image out of my head. I'm 25 years old.

Saab they can keep.

Cadillac found itself into rap videos, so they basically saved themselves already. :p


I just want to see them like I see Ford, which is mostly Ford. Many regular people don't associate Jaguar with Ford, same with Mazda, Volvo, and Aston Martin. If Mazda starts making crap cars, most people won't think poorly of Ford, and so public perception of Ford doesn't drop faster than yo momma's panties (joking.....giggidy giggidy!?). If Buick makes big cars for old people, it brings down GM's image. Same goes for Cadillac, Saturn, Chevrolet, and Pontiac --- they all bring down GM's image. And right now, since they ALL have a poor image right now (except Caddy, Pontiac, and you claim GMC), GM looks bad whenever any of its brands do poorly.

I think that's the difference between GM and Ford right now. GM has so many badges that are dead-weight, and yet they're trying to save them all. Why? Make your strong brands stronger, work on the brands worth saving, and cut off the badges that'll cost you image-wise, like Buick.
 
i don't like the Camero, never have actually.

GM does have a good deal of work to do to save themselves. and i think Abstract has hit the nail on the head quite effectively.
 
quagmire said:
I agree, except for the brands that need to go. ... Saturn is going to replace where Oldsmobile was in the market. Right under Buick and Cadillac. Saturn will be one of keys of GM's revival in NA. And Saturns won't be too hard to produce as many of them are rebadged Opels. The Saturn Aura and Sky are the key models for Saturn right now. I expect both to sell well. Buick is lost in their perception and image. ...
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Altho I agree it makes sense for GM to consolidate their divisions further, I'm surprised at that perception. I'm an outsider, but it seems to me that Saturn is the one that is lost. Market-wise, it's just another Chevy. Give it up. Buick sells a lot of cars; the LeSabre has to be one of GM's best-selling models, I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot with the Lucerne (a Safeway store brand IIRC). Eventually I suppose Pontiac and Buick have to find a way to merge, but if it were up to me, Cadillac would be history.

I love the Solstice, it's the right size, excellent seats, I think it hits a great sweet spot.

As for the muscle cars, this nostalgia craze will fade as the baby boomers retire and gasoline goes past $5 a gallon. Get your New Beetle, PT Cruiser, SSR and HHR while they're hot.
 
cubist said:
Altho I agree it makes sense for GM to consolidate their divisions further, I'm surprised at that perception. I'm an outsider, but it seems to me that Saturn is the one that is lost. Market-wise, it's just another Chevy. Give it up. Buick sells a lot of cars; the LeSabre has to be one of GM's best-selling models, I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot with the Lucerne (a Safeway store brand IIRC). Eventually I suppose Pontiac and Buick have to find a way to merge, but if it were up to me, Cadillac would be history.

I love the Solstice, it's the right size, excellent seats, I think it hits a great sweet spot.

As for the muscle cars, this nostalgia craze will fade as the baby boomers retire and gasoline goes past $5 a gallon. Get your New Beetle, PT Cruiser, SSR and HHR while they're hot.
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What I meant about Buick being lost is where should Buick go? GM is having a hard time deciding where to put it without competiting against another division. Buicks current perception is old mans car. The LaCrosse and Lucrene are not enough to get Buick out of that perception. I like the LaCrosse and Lucrene and would buy it, but I am sure and sales right now prove it, the public sees them still as old man. Even though the Lucrene has gotten great reviews! Pontiac and Buick shouldn't merge! Buick and Pontiac are total opposites! Pontiac is total, pure performance! As I said in that post, Cadillac is getting luxury, Saturn is getting European style/entry luxury, Hummer is off roading and competing against Jeep, Chevy and Cadillac is the only brands getting a full line up, Pontiac is pure performance, Saab is European style/performance, and GMC is professional grade. Where is Buick supposed to go?

EDIT: Oh and if the LeSabre was one of the best selling GM cars, why has it been killed off?
 
Not a bad concept, but I'll bet none of the the nicer details (tiny rearview mirrors, door handles, missing B-pillar) will make it into the production car.

I'm starting to tire of the retro thing though. yawn.

GM: If you build it, PLEASE give it a fully independent suspension front and rear. Ford screwed that up on the Mustang because they wanted to please the hot-rodder hillbillies. It's time American manufacturers stopped building "performance" cars with live axles, torsion bars and leaf springs. :rolleyes:

Another thing - will it look as good when you put normal sized wheels on it? Case in point: have you ever seen a Mitsu Eclipse with the 15/16" wheels? they look silly in the car's huge wheelwells.

I hate to sound like a grumpy naysayer, but beyond the C6 Corvette and (especially) the Ford GT nothing interesting has come out of the Big 3 lately. The Mustang is let down by ancient suspension, the Hemi Chryslers are heavy and ridiculously thirsy, and GM is alive solely due to truck/SUV sales.

quagmire said:
Pontiac is total, pure performance!
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They'd like you to think that. But Pontiacs have a couple fundamental and fatal flaws.

First off, how does a V6 or V8 performance car get its power to the road? Either rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive for best grip. But almost all Pontiacs are front wheel drive. you just can't have that much power going to the front wheels AND expect them to do the steering.

Second, current Pontiacs (and GM in general) are behind both the Europeans and the Japanese when it comes to both total horsepower and specific output. The 3.5L V6 puts out a disappointing 201hp - Nissan's 3.5L in even its lowest state of tune puts out 30+ more. And the massive 3.9L V6 achieves 240...yawn. Did I mention it is a pushrod engine? <snicker> Last time I checked the new Lexus IS produced over 300hp from a 3.5L V6. And does it much more smoothly with better fuel economy! Even the lowly Camry V6 pushes out 225hp (and matches the 3.9L's 241 lb-ft of torque) from a smaller 3.3L, and again gets better mileage. Better specific output + higher total output = better power/weight ratio = better performance. And GM is behind the curve.

And the tranny...they finally started offering manuals, which is true progress, so kudos there. But the manual-shiftable automatic is a joke. I drove one in the Bonneville and I thought it was horrible. You can never shift when you want it to, you flip the paddles and it shifts eventually. Sure they can compare it to the German cars in commercials but in reality it's a hack job of an auto.

GM could build a great car if they wanted to, but for some reason they just don't. The "GTO" is a great car - it's just not a GM (well, not American anyway.). The Solstice may be an exception, which is good. Unfortunately we all know that the same platform can host crappy cars as well as stunningly good ones, so the future is by no means certain.
 
Not bad looking. I prefer the design of the new Mustang GT and the Challenger concept, but if the front facia was different I think I would like it better. But I'm glad they are bringing it back. They need a strong competitor against the new Mustang (which has sold over 166,000 so far). Chevy is really lacking in the $20,000 to $30,000 sports car range right now. Maybe this well equal more sales for Chevrolet! :)
 
Lord Blackadder said:
They'd like you to think that. But Pontiacs have a couple fundamental and fatal flaws.

First off, how does a V6 or V8 performance car get its power to the road? Either rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive for best grip. But almost all Pontiacs are front wheel drive. you just can't have that much power going to the front wheels AND expect them to do the steering.

Second, current Pontiacs (and GM in general) are behind both the Europeans and the Japanese when it comes to both total horsepower and specific output. The 3.5L V6 puts out a disappointing 201hp - Nissan's 3.5L in even its lowest state of tune puts out 30+ more. And the massive 3.9L V6 achieves 240...yawn. Did I mention it is a pushrod engine? <snicker> Last time I checked the new Lexus IS produced over 300hp from a 3.5L V6. And does it much more smoothly with better fuel economy! Even the lowly Camry V6 pushes out 225hp (and matches the 3.9L's 241 lb-ft of torque) from a smaller 3.3L, and again gets better mileage.

And the tranny...they finally started offering manuals, which is true progress, so kudos there. But the manual-shiftable automatic is a joke. I drove one in the Bonneville and I thought it was horrible. You can never shift when you want it to, you flip the paddles and it shifts eventually. Sure they can compare it to the German cars in commercials but in reality it's a hack job of an auto.

GM could build a great car if they wanted to, but for some reason they just don't. The "GTO" is a great car - it's just not a GM (well, not American anyway.). The Solstice may be an exception, which is good. Unfortunately we all know that the same platform can host crappy cars as well as stunningly good ones, so the future is by no means certain.
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Read post #26. I said Pontiac is lacking currently. GM is working on it. Expect the Vibe to be killed off, and the only FWD car will be the G6 according to the site I hang out. And what is wrong with pushrods? Sure it isn't high tech, but it is cheaper to build without sacrificing much. Well the Bonneville was killed off. Not sure if it brought the tranny with it. I am sort of confused where you are talking about the GTO and Solstice and how the same platform can produce good cars and crappy cars. While I agree the platforms can produce good and crappy cars( ex: Chevy Trailblazer, GMC Envoy, Buick Rainer, and Saab 9-7x. Both under same platform, but the Trailblazer has more problems then the rest of the GMT-360's), the GTO and Solstice are different platforms. Zeta( which will underpin the new Camaro) underpins the GTO and Kappa underpins the Solstice and Saturn Sky. And your sort of right by the GTO not being American as it is a rebadged Aussie Holden Monaro, but Holden is a GM division. The current GTO is in its last year and will be brought back in 2008 with a design true to its heritage.
 
2008? Dodge Challenger pics

Here's something for the Mopar fans.
front-quarter.jpg

spy-head-on.jpg
 
quagmire said:
What I meant about Buick being lost is where should Buick go? GM is having a hard time deciding where to put it without competiting against another division.
......Hummer is off roading and competing against Jeep, Chevy and Cadillac is the only brands getting a full line up, Pontiac is pure performance, Saab is European style/performance, and GMC is professional grade. Where is Buick supposed to go?
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Exactly, and like I stated before, why does GM feel obligated to keep ANY underperforming badge around? It's costing them money, and nobody even remembers GM's model names anymore. There's just too much crap in the lineup.

Instead of figuring out where Buick is supposed to go, ditch the bitch and keep Pontiac as Pontiac. Make sure that people associate Pontiac with "performance" from now on (which I didn't even know was supposed to be a performance division until this thread came up), and let Chevy produce a very wide range of car models, big and small to fill the line-up. Let Cadillac, which is hot **** right now, be your luxury car. Let GMC make all your SUVs and trucks. Let Saab be your European brand. Let Saturn make the cheaper, lower-end cars, or hell, let Saturn get into hatchbacks and Scion-type cars that aim for the same youth market. Hatchbacks would be more hottt if companies in North America would just commit to it.

Drop Buick. If GM wants a car aimed towards old people, that's fine, but nobody likes to feel like a senior citizen, not even old people.....

quagmire said:
The LaCrosse and Lucrene are not enough to get Buick out of that perception. I like the LaCrosse and Lucrene and would buy it, but I am sure and sales right now prove it, the public sees them still as old man.
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Ah yes, but if they originally released them under another division's badge, maybe it would have done a lot better. These car models deserve to get more notice than this, don't they? Instead, they were wasted by being released under the Buick name, and this is why Buick needs to go.

Cubist said:
Buick sells a lot of cars; the LeSabre has to be one of GM's best-selling models, I hope they don't shoot themselves in the foot with the Lucerne (a Safeway store brand IIRC). Eventually I suppose Pontiac and Buick have to find a way to merge, but if it were up to me, Cadillac would be history.
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@Cubist: That's just wrong all over the place.
 
GMC's the 2nd most profitable division eh?

Does that make it the 2nd shiniest turd in the bowl?
 
quagmire said:
Read post #26. I said Pontiac is lacking currently. GM is working on it. Expect the Vibe to be killed off, and the only FWD car will be the G6 according to the site I hang out. And what is wrong with pushrods? Sure it isn't high tech, but it is cheaper to build without sacrificing much. Well the Bonneville was killed off. Not sure if it brought the tranny with it.
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Pushrod engines tend to be thrashy in my experience, and don't like to rev as freely as an OHC engine...I just don't understand why GM feels the need to keep building them. Yes, they function but "If it aint broke don't fix it" is not a good motto to have when a car company claims to be innovative, as GM does. This is one case where GM should jump on the bandwagon.

I am sort of confused where you are talking about the GTO and Solstice and how the same platform can produce good cars and crappy cars.
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My comment about platforms was not referring to my comments about the Solstice and GTO. They are simply in the same paragraph.;)

And your sort of right by the GTO not being American as it is a rebadged Aussie Holden Monaro, but Holden is a GM division.
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True, but the current GTO is simply not an American car. This isn't a bad thing, but they should have brought it here as the Holden ( or Chevy or Pontiac) Monaro, not the GTO. The restyle was lame IMHO - it looked far too much like the old Grand Prix. I liked the Holden styling better.
 
to all the anti-buick people..

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-01-05-gm-china_x.htm

Buick in the US does suck but there are other people outside of the US that love Buick. Also, the Buick has a lot of history in China. link to some history from GM Canada

From the list: "A Buick four-door sedan and a Buick four-door limousine are sold to PU Yi, the last emperor of China, the first cars ever owned by an emperor of China and also the first cars to enter the Forbidden City"
 
rickvanr said:
The front looks hideous. I don't like the muscle car look.
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I like hte muscle car look, but that grill is just weird, it's too angular. Then again, it's a concept, so i doubt it will look exactly like that if/when it reaches production.
 
The front end is terrible. I think Dodge takes top awards in the retro sports car category.

Once again, GM is late to the game and will be one of the last to release their throwback.
 
Abstract said:
All true.

Too bad for GM, perception is everything. GM is making some nice(r) models right now than in the past, but it's a little late. They'd have to continue making nice models AND keep the reliability high for at least another 5 years before people believe GM cars are reliable and nice, because even if that's true now, people in the general public don't have that perception now. I don't know about whether GM is doing well right now, but word on the street is that they're not, and that they may get bought out. Also, I don't know if they could hold out for the next 5 or more years without being bought out or going bankrupt.

And about GM making too many car lines and models, that's true as well. I can't even keep up with the number of lines and models they make. It used to be worse, but there are still too many. They should keep the Chevrolet, Pontiac, Cadillac, and their European companies like Saab, but do they really need GMC, Buick, Saturn, etc? Ditch them already. Just sell under several badges, not a dozen. Ford sells Ford cars.
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Although I agree with you about GM having too many brands, let's not forget about Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin.
 
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