2008/2009 Chevy Camaro concept.

[Lord Blackadder]

Although I agree with you aobut GM having too many brands, let's not forget about Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin.

Until fairly recently Ford has done less parts-bin engineering than GM, especially among the PAG brands. But Ford switchgear has reared its ugly head a little too often in Aston Martins if you ask me.

I think that Ford's brand identities are currently much stronger than GM's, especially in the luxury segment.

 

[rickvanr]

Although I agree with you about GM having too many brands, let's not forget about Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin.

Yes, but with the exception of the first two, you listed the only ones worth keeping.

 

[quagmire]

I think that Ford's brand identities are currently much stronger than GM's, especially in the luxury segment.

Cadillac owns Lincoln. Sorry. The new Aviator or should I say MKX is just plain old ugly. The Zephyr is ok. We don't know what the new Navigator will look like. The Mark LT is a joke.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Cadillac owns Lincoln. Sorry. The new Aviator or should I say MKX is just plain old ugly. The Zephyr is ok. We don't know what the new Navigator will look like. The Mark LT is a joke.

I agree that Lincoln is a joke - just like Caddy, they are cars for gangsters or old farts, or maybe old fart gangsters. I personally ignore Lincoln. Apart from perhaps the LS there is nothing interesting there. And if you want an LS you're much better off with its platform mate, the Jag S-Type.

But saying that Cadillac owns Lincoln is like saying "My turd is more polished than yours".

 

[Bakey]

Good grief!!

Personally never realised GM was looking quite out of shape -- I must have seriously missed something!?

So inbetween all of the posts is it fair to say that GM NA is the bad apple of the moment or is it a bigger deal, ie. is it likely the whole damn lot could go down? As a UK citizen my experience of GM is 100% Vauxhall/Opel - fingers crossed for a VX220 Turbo later in the year...

Could someone point me in the right direction for a brief history of the troubled GM - NA or otherwise? As I was always under the impression of the old saying "if GM goes, America goes..." was still relevant today as it was, errr... yesterday!?!

 

[BearRanger]

Blackadder is spot on about GM. They need to build modern engines if they want to save the company. The pushrod V-8 is a dog. The Ecotec 4 cylinder is a grungy piece of trash. How come Honda can produce a smooth, 200 HP 4 banger for Civics and the Acura TSX that can get better than 30 MPG, but GM dumps the Ecotec into the best small car they've built in decades. (The Cobalt) GM manual transmissions are awful.

Healthcare issues aside, is it any wonder they're losing money?

As to the new Camaro. . .the bump on the hood looks to be the perfect size for a bank or red oscillating LEDs. It's a modern K.I.T.T. car! This is really just a joint venture with NBC for Knight Rider 2010.

 

[quagmire]

Blackadder is spot on about GM. They need to build modern engines if they want to save the company. The pushrod V-8 is a dog. The Ecotec 4 cylinder is a grungy piece of trash. How come Honda can produce a smooth, 200 HP 4 banger for Civics and the Acura TSX that can get better than 30 MPG, but GM dumps the Ecotec into the best small car they've built in decades. (The Cobalt) GM manual transmissions are awful.

The pushroad V8 is such a dog that the LS7 V8 can only get the Z06 0-60 in 3.4 seconds and can only beat a Lamborghini Gallardo and yet still get 16/26 for fuel economy. The Vortec 4800, the Vortec 5300, and Vortec 6000 are dogs that they can't seem to tow a lot of weight. And yet those V8's help the Tahoe, Suburban, and Silverado be one of the most fuel efficient SUV's and trucks in their class. I will give you some credit with the Ecotec. The Ecotec was designed with performance in mind instead of maximum fuel economy possible. But that Direct Injection turbo'd Ecotec that puts out 260 HP and 260 lb of torque, is a beast of an engine.

 

[maxterpiece]

first of all it's pretty ugly for a muscle car. The mustang is much sexier. Second of all it's just another step in the trend of american cars - first it was the H2, then it was the mustang, now it's this - these cars are exciting looking and off the wall in a way taht will attract attention, but they are not good practical cars (high mpg, durable, inexpensive). It's almost like american car companies are ceding that category to japan.

 

[Mr. Durden]

I skimmed through the posts and didnt see this yet, so...

ummm, cover up that butt-ugly front grill and that thing looks exactly like a Mustang (from the couple pictures I saw). Good freakin grief, man. Could you please come up with a more original design? I know its a bit of a throw back to yesteryear, but at least try to differentiate yourself a bit. Geez.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The pushroad V8 is such a dog that the LS7 V8 can only get the Z06 0-60 in 3.4 seconds and can only beat a Lamborghini Gallardo and yet still get 16/26 for fuel economy.

Nobody can deny that the small block is a great performer - of course they've been developing it for more than twice as long as I've been alive so I'd expect them to have it sorted out by now. Unfortunately it is the sole inhabitant of the "GM's Great Engines" list. My biggest problem is with new engines like the 3.9 that just don't cut it in my book. They are simply more of the same with small changes - that in a nutshell could be said to be GM NA's biggest problem.

The Vortec 4800, the Vortec 5300, and Vortec 6000 are dogs that they can't seem to tow a lot of weight. And yet those V8's help the Tahoe, Suburban, and Silverado be one of the most fuel efficient SUV's and trucks in their class.

Here we are using "efficiency" in the loosest possible sense.

I will give you some credit with the Ecotec. The Ecotec was designed with performance in mind instead of maximum fuel economy possible. But that Direct Injection turbo'd Ecotec that puts out 260 HP and 260 lb of torque, is a beast of an engine.

The Ecotec fours are a big improvement over the previous engines. But that is mostly because the previous enginees were so bad. The old 2.2 could actually move the Z24 Cavalier rather impressively, but they are thrashy as h*ll and tend to blow head gaskets. And the less said about the Cav the better. The Cobalt is a much better car, but miles away from the Opel Astra, despite being on the same platform. If GM brought the Astra here they'd hit a home run. Especially with the hot models.

Personally never realised GM was looking quite out of shape -- I must have seriously missed something!?

So inbetween all of the posts is it fair to say that GM NA is the bad apple of the moment or is it a bigger deal, ie. is it likely the whole damn lot could go down? As a UK citizen my experience of GM is 100% Vauxhall/Opel - fingers crossed for a VX220 Turbo later in the year...

GM Europe has had issues but is nowhere near as far into the sh*tter as GM North America. If it wasn't for the fact that GM (like Ford) sells several million trucks and SUVs per year in the home market (which have high profit margins compared to cars), they'd be in recievership. Their car divisions are not making enough money.

 

[maxvamp]

First,

This prototype is Ugly... Too fat, Grill too narrow, and too boxy. I own a 69 Camaro and I would love to see a Camaro retro that closer resembled the original, much like the retro stang / Challenger / t-bird . If they cannot do that, then they should abandon the retro look and come up with a new design with credibility of a truly classic design.

Second,

I would not shed a tear if Pontiac went away. They really have not been performance or even quality vehicles, and have done little to innovate the auto industry.

Third,

Lincoln has lost it's way since the death of the Continental and Town Cars closer resemble cop cars. They need to get back on track, much like Cadillac did when they developed the Northstar engines and the designs to go with them.

Max.

 

[bursty]

More pics recently released:

Again, this is strictly a concept car, meaning the production Camaro will be drastically changed from this, especially the interior.

In general, I like the design. However, I was praying that GM wouldnt succumb to the temptation to fall back on retro styling. I cant stand how Ford just retro-styles all their cars from 30 years ago and people just fall in love. Dont even get me started on the new Dodge Charger. As much as I LOVE General Motors, they, along with the other American auto manufacturers, need pull their heads out of their asses and actually design some new cars. European cars are dominating Americans right now and its sad.

 

[rickvanr]

More pics recently released:

<snip x3>

Again, this is strictly a concept car, meaning the production Camaro will be drastically changed from this, especially the interior.

In general, I like the design. However, I was praying that GM wouldnt succumb to the temptation to fall back on retro styling. I cant stand how Ford just retro-styles all their cars from 30 years ago and people just fall in love. Dont even get me started on the new Dodge Charger. As much as I LOVE General Motors, they, along with the other American auto manufacturers, need pull their heads out of their asses and actually design some new cars. European cars are dominating Americans right now and its sad.

What Ford models are you talking about aside from the Mustang? I don't really like the new Mustang. I can see you making a point about how the GT could be described as a 'retro' look, but I see the original as more of a futuristic look so the two even out. The new Ford prototypes look very promising, in particular the Iosis very nice.

 

[maxterpiece]

More pics recently released:
Again, this is strictly a concept car, meaning the production Camaro will be drastically changed from this, especially the interior.

In general, I like the design. However, I was praying that GM wouldnt succumb to the temptation to fall back on retro styling. I cant stand how Ford just retro-styles all their cars from 30 years ago and people just fall in love. Dont even get me started on the new Dodge Charger. As much as I LOVE General Motors, they, along with the other American auto manufacturers, need pull their heads out of their asses and actually design some new cars. European cars are dominating Americans right now and its sad.

oh man, that interior is hilarious

 

[Jon'sLightBulbs]

Nice updated pics. I really like the Charger and Camaro concepts. The bodies are faithful contemporary interpretations of the originals. I just hope that Chrysler and Chevy decide to put REAL interiors inside of these monsters. I mean on par with Japanese standards. Interiors that look more exciting, and are made of way more substantial materials than those currently offered in the closest competitor, the current Mustang.

<--- 96 Cobra

 

[Abstract]

to all the anti-buick people..

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-01-05-gm-china_x.htm

Buick in the US does suck but there are other people outside of the US that love Buick. Also, the Buick has a lot of history in China.

For the entire thread we've been talking about the US market, GM car models sold in the US, etc. So all the anti-Buick people in North America can stay anti-Buick, as they ARE garbage in the market that we're talking about. Also, in the N. American market, nobody cares about Buick at all......

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=25162

What's with the TV dinner trays in the backseat? Is a Flight Attendant gonna come by and serve food and drinks?

Although I agree with you about GM having too many brands, let's not forget about Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Volvo, Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin.

I think that Ford's brand identities are currently much stronger than GM's, especially in the luxury segment.

But nobody really treats Volvo or Mazda as "Ford." They survive on their own. Most people I know don't even know that Mazda, Land Rover, or Aston Martin are a part of Ford.

With GM, their brands are GM. There isn't necessarily a GM car badge, and so when people think of Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Jeep, etc, they immediately think of GM. So if one of their brands does poorly, it reflects poorly on GM.

Ford's other brands are much more independent of Ford's reputation. They all have their own reputation. If one part flounders, Ford still does OK.

http://www.fast-autos.net/chevrolet/camaroconcept8.jpg

I haven't seen shiny stuff that ugly since the last time Mr T was on the telly.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

But nobody really treats Volvo or Mazda as "Ford." They survive on their own. Most people I know don't even know that Mazda, Land Rover, or Aston Martin are a part of Ford.

With GM, their brands are GM. There isn't necessarily a GM car badge, and so when people think of Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Jeep, etc, they immediately think of GM. So if one of their brands does poorly, it reflects poorly on GM.

Ford's other brands are much more independent of Ford's reputation. They all have their own reputation. If one part flounders, Ford still does OK.

This is why Ford has better luck with their other "brands". GM's "brands" are as similar as possible to maximize profits. But people aren't fooled, which is one reason why GM is in trouble. How can you have an old fart Buick and a "sporty" Pontiac share the same platform, drivetrain, accessories, switchgear and other critical components and still expect me to believe they are totally different cars?

Ford, on the other hand, keeps companies like Volvo and Jaguar on a longer leash. This is better because they actually build more interesting and different cars, and as you pointed out failures have less impact on the parent brand (although it works both ways - the Mazda RX-8 for instance has very little to do with Ford besides being funded partially by Ford).

 

[bursty]

What Ford models are you talking about aside from the Mustang? I don't really like the new Mustang. I can see you making a point about how the GT could be described as a 'retro' look, but I see the original as more of a futuristic look so the two even out. The new Ford prototypes look very promising, in particular the Iosis very nice.

New Mustang, GT500 Cobra, GT, Shelby Cobra Concept, Shelby GR-1 Concept, the 500, etc, etc.

Ford is banking on retro which shows how pathetic their designers are, but also shows how smart their marketing division is. They will sell tons of these retro cars, but whats next? How do you redesign a retro car for the next generation? Good luck Ford....

 

[DakotaGuy]

Ah yes, but if they originally released them under another division's badge, maybe it would have done a lot better. These car models deserve to get more notice than this, don't they? Instead, they were wasted

These models LaCrosse/Lucerne (along with the new Impala) don't get more notice because they are riding on an 18 year old W-body platform with OHV engines and 4 speed auto transmissions. New sheetmetal can't fool a person when they get behind the wheel.

Compare these to the Ford Five-Hundred or Mercury Montego which ride on a Volvo S80 platform, include 6 speed or CVT transmissions and are available with All Wheel Drive. The ONLY thing that GM might have up on Ford when it comes to these cars is overall horsepower since the Duratec 30 is a small engine. Next year the Duratec 35 comes and will pretty much wipe these old W-bodies away.

 

[BearRanger]

New Mustang, GT500 Cobra, GT, Shelby Cobra Concept, Shelby GR-1 Concept, the 500, etc, etc.

Ford is banking on retro which shows how pathetic their designers are, but also shows how smart their marketing division is. They will sell tons of these retro cars, but whats next? How do you redesign a retro car for the next generation? Good luck Ford....

Most of these are variations on the Mustang or GT. The 500 is an old name reused for a new car. It's only retro if you consider that last VW Passat a Ford.

On the whole I find the new Ford designs to be much better looking than the GM ones.

As to redesigning a retro car for the next generation, you're right about that. Poor sales killed the T-bird before we got to see what Ford might have done. VW's next gen New Beetle looks just like to old one to me. Still, this hardly seems important if you sell enough units and the underlying platform is a good one.

 

[bursty]

Most of these are variations on the Mustang or GT. The 500 is an old name reused for a new car. It's only retro if you consider that last VW Passat a Ford.

On the whole I find the new Ford designs to be much better looking than the GM ones.

As to redesigning a retro car for the next generation, you're right about that. Poor sales killed the T-bird before we got to see what Ford might have done. VW's next gen New Beetle looks just like to old one to me. Still, this hardly seems important if you sell enough units and the underlying platform is a good one.

Mustang variations - the base and GT models and the new Shelby GT500

Ford GT "Supercar"

Shelby Cobra - not the Mustang Cobra, a retro Cobra styled after the 60's AC Cobra

Shelby GR-1 - Retro concept styled after the Daytona Coupe from Shelby

Not many Mustang variations, but I know thats all really confusing. Way to many Cobra this and GT that. Screw Ford.

 

[AP_piano295]

i like it mebe by 2009 ill be able to afford one (heh heh)

 

[BearRanger]

Mustang variations - the base and GT models and the new Shelby GT500

Ford GT "Supercar"

Shelby Cobra - not the Mustang Cobra, a retro Cobra styled after the 60's AC Cobra

Shelby GR-1 - Retro concept styled after the Daytona Coupe from Shelby

Not many Mustang variations, but I know thats all really confusing. Way to many Cobra this and GT that. Screw Ford.

When I said "GT" I meant the Ford GT "Supercar". I was wrong.

I had forgotten about the Shelby GR-1. I agree; it's ugly. As is the Shelby Cobra. In fact, I'm not a fan of Carroll Shelby at all, and never have been.

On some level fans of American car companies are like adherents to a religion. It's often passed down from one generation the next, and the followers can't imagine ever following a different creed.

I confess to being a "Ford Guy" but that doesn't mean I like everything they've ever done. Can you say "Mustang II"?

 

[DakotaGuy]

I confess to being a "Ford Guy" but that doesn't mean I like everything they've ever done. Can you say "Mustang II"?

I'm a Ford Guy too and I never liked the Mustang II, but you know it sold really well...I guess Iacocca was not as stupid as some thought for pushing that model, but it did hurt the 'stangs rep in the 1970's.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I'm a Ford Guy too and I never liked the Mustang II, but you know it sold really well...I guess Iacocca was not as stupid as some thought for pushing that model, but it did hurt the 'stangs rep in the 1970's.

YEEEEEHAAAAA!


....not excactly my idea of fun.