2008 Formula One Thread

[R.Youden]

Mock all you want, its well known that teams snoop on each other and anyone that doesn't accept that is just blinkered. After the whole McLaren episode had been put to bed, Autosport ran an article with one of the engineers at Toyota and one at Red Bull, both of whom say they at previous teams have had information on others teams strategies, development etc. Even Nigel Stephney admitted in the trial that Ferrari had info on McLaren, its just that McLaren got caught first.

Oh yes teams have lots of information on their rivals. When I was with Honda we spent so much time analysing other teams, I think it was to the detriment of the car's performance. For example from video and audio clips it is possible to determine a rivals engine mapping, very useful information.

Now the question from your statement is, do teams have full design documents that have been stolen from the other team? Are these physical documents or just information they have gained from looking at what is available in the public domain?

 

[AndyR]

Oh yes teams have lots of information on their rivals. When I was with Honda we spent so much time analysing other teams, I think it was to the detriment of the car's performance. For example from video and audio clips it is possible to determine a rivals engine mapping, very useful information.

Now the question from your statement is, do teams have full design documents that have been stolen from the other team? Are these physical documents or just information they have gained from looking at what is available in the public domain?

I'll bet they have some documents at least, not whole things, just enough to help. The reason McLaren got done is they didn't cough up to the fact they were in possession of them but I'm sure other teams would have done the same. People have the perception that cheating is only cheating if your caught, especially when so much is a stake.

Best knowledge though would come from engineers changing teams, nothing to stop the knowledge being transferred this way. Just look at how IBM reacted to that chap going to Apple.

 

[iGav]

Mock all you want, its well known that teams snoop on each other and anyone that doesn't accept that is just blinkered.

Of course it is well known that all teams snoop on each other, but for heavens sake, can you not see the difference between snooping (e.g. taking photographs of other teams cars, recording engine notes, and generally guesstimating from there) to actually having in your possession blueprints of your chief rivals cars, having a mole providing a stream of realtime technical data, relating to not only the car itself, but also operational procedures and strategies for the races?

Autosport ran an article with one of the engineers at Toyota and one at Red Bull, both of whom say they at previous teams have had information on others teams strategies, development etc

And show me the quote where these same engineers say that such information was provided by being in possession of stolen blueprints, IP and moles?

Even Nigel Stephney admitted in the trial that Ferrari had info on McLaren, its just that McLaren got caught first.

Yet, one would've thought that a man of such honesty and undoubted integrity would've been only so happy to provide proof of such information to not only McLaren but also the FIA.

Whilst I do not doubt for one moment that Ferrari have information on McLaren, I'm thinking it's unlikely to have come from stolen blueprints, or a constant stream of data from a mole in Paragon.

The reason McLaren got done is they didn't cough up to the fact they were in possession of them

No. at their first hearing they were found to be possession of confidential Ferrari information, and therefore in breach of the International Sporting Code, there was no evidence that they had made use of such information, that's why, like Renault they weren't punished.

McLaren were only "done" when it was later revealed that not only were they in possession, but they were actively making use of the information, despite their original assertions otherwise.

 

[legacyb4]

Just rewatched the last 2 laps of the race and it's truly disgusting how Glock just pulled over to let the pack past in that second to last corner.

When they switch to the rear shot, he simply pulls over to give up his position without a fight...

Although I'm quite pleased an English driver has won something, it's a shame it had to be Hamilton, who is a cocky little **** with a wanker of a dad.

And I really like Massa. But oh well.

 

[CWallace]

Just rewatched the last 2 laps of the race and it's truly disgusting how Glock just pulled over to let the pack past in that second to last corner.

Considering his lap time (and Truli's, on the same dry tires), was over 20 seconds slower then Vettel and Hamilton, what was he exactly to do? He was likely sliding all over the place and just trying to bring the thing home in the points, period.

Plus, if he had been overly aggressive in defending and ended up crashing into Hamilton and taking him out, they'd be torching Camry's in London. Not to mention the stewards likely would have fined him the season's points and a few million quid.

 

[benlangdon]

This article condenses everything into something a little more manageable.

thanks,
damm i was hopping for some info on the parts, but its to secrete i guess
co2 is cool though.

 

[remmy]

Just rewatched the last 2 laps of the race and it's truly disgusting how Glock just pulled over to let the pack past in that second to last corner.

When they switch to the rear shot, he simply pulls over to give up his position without a fight...

So you expect Glock to be able to drive faster in the rain than Hamilton and Vettel when he has the wrong tyre on which has done about 20 - 30 laps and is quite worn already. I'm surprised Glock even finished the race.

 

[iGav]

what was he exactly to do?

After what Hamilton did to him at Monza, I was half expecting Glock to return the favour.

 

[pachyderm]

You guys are really being redundant here. There is no conspiracy no shady back room dealings. The problem is toyota and their stupid race strategy. They are idiots. They hit the podium this season by accident.

Kudos to Jarno and Glock for occasionally being able to over come it and finish well.

 

[djellison]

When they switch to the rear shot, he simply pulls over to give up his position without a fight...

So you missed the bit where you can see just how screwed he is regarding tyres and grip, from that rear shot, when 300 yards further up the road the car is still twitching like hell as he can't get the power down.

And you missed the bit where Trulli was just as slow on that last lap as Glock was.

And you missed the end of the Belgium GP where people on the right tyres overtook 5 people in a single lap, with the grooved tyres dropping off by the exact same ammount they dropped off on the last lap at Brazil.

And you missed the fact that, even after the dreadfull last lap for Glock - staying out was infact still a net gain of 1 place for him.

Doug

 

[neiltc13]

Considering his lap time (and Truli's, on the same dry tires), was over 20 seconds slower then Vettel and Hamilton, what was he exactly to do? He was likely sliding all over the place and just trying to bring the thing home in the points, period.

Plus, if he had been overly aggressive in defending and ended up crashing into Hamilton and taking him out, they'd be torching Camry's in London. Not to mention the stewards likely would have fined him the season's points and a few million quid.

They don't have Camrys in London. I think you are thinking of Accord.

 

[bartelby]

They don't have Camrys in London. I think you are thinking of Accord.

Why would they be torching Hondas?

Glock drives a Toyota.

 

[robbieduncan]

Why would they be torching Hondas?

Support Jenson's burning of his at the end of the race?

 

[bartelby]

Support Jenson's burning of his at the end of the race?

I still think Button set fire to it himself!

 

[neiltc13]

Why would they be torching Hondas?

Glock drives a Toyota.

Sorry I got confused between all the Japanese cars. Which brings me to another thing I was thinking about...

Is Honda's terrible performance in F1 going to have a negative impact on their car sales? Seeing Toyota, BMW and Mercedes ahead of them?

 

[CWallace]

Is Honda's terrible performance in F1 going to have a negative impact on their car sales? Seeing Toyota, BMW and Mercedes ahead of them?

I imagine not, especially since their largest market is the United States and they power the IndyCar series here. I would also expect them to enter NASCAR now that Toyota has broken down the door.

But it is shocking that after the amazing F1 engines they made in the 1980's and early 1990's they could fall off so badly in the 2000's. I am sure a good part of it is the crap chassis, as well, but considering how powerful their naturally-aspirated V12 and V10 engines were, surely a powerful V8 can't be that hard for them and that would allow them to run the wing they need to keep the chassis together.

I guess it's a good thing they didn't launch their own car originally, but instead teamed with Pollock and Company at BAR, so at least they had a few years of being competitive.

 

[pachyderm]

Sorry I got confused between all the Japanese cars. Which brings me to another thing I was thinking about...

Is Honda's terrible performance in F1 going to have a negative impact on their car sales? Seeing Toyota, BMW and Mercedes ahead of them?

NASCAR used to have that effect on car sales here in the states.

The saying used to be, "Winner on Sunday, Sells on Monday...".True Story.

 

[iGav]

I still think Button set fire to it himself!

How does the saying go? A poor workman always blames his...?

Maybe Button should be more concerned how Barrichello scored almost 4 times as many points, whilst being out-qualified 10x in the process.

 

[remmy]

Oh and what excellent cars Jenson and Rubens have

Hardly worth comparing drivers in rubbish cars when neither get a chance of scoring points. But for comparison they are quite equally paced drivers.

In 2007 in equal cars Jenson scored 6 more points.
In 2006 Jenson scored 56 including a win, Rubens getting 30.

Even when Rubens was driving for Ferrari there is not a great deal of difference in points scored or positions on the table at end of season. Of course the Honda was at least reasonably competitive then.

 

[iGav]

Oh and what excellent cars Jenson and Rubens have .

I think you're missing the point, tt doesn't really matter how excellent the cars are.

The point is, Button is struggling to match a much older driver, who is long past his peak.

In 2007 in equal cars Jenson scored 6 more points.
In 2006 Jenson scored 56 including a win, Rubens getting 30.

I see a pattern emerging. Button's getting worse.

 

[remmy]

It does make a difference if the cars are rubbish as points are harder to gain a freakish big points gain due to rain or good fortune by one of the drivers can make a big difference in a season's total. This may make it hard to compare drivers ability. I think though that the drivers are quite easily matched.

 

[iGav]

It does make a difference if the cars are rubbish as points are harder to gain a freakish big points gain due to rain or good fortune by one of the drivers can make a big difference in a season's total.

Of course, to gain those freakish points, you first need to be able to consistently out qualify your teammate.

Again, my point is, Button is struggling to match a much older driver, who is long past his peak.

 

[R.Youden]

Well now the 2008 season is over I think it's time to start up:

2009 Formula One Thread

Enjoy!