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I really wish I didn't sound so cynical, but that's the picture as I understand it.

I think we have to start somewhere. Whether we like it or not, diesel/petroleum aren't going to last forever so sooner or later something has to change.

Obviously a lot of electricity is generated through non-renewable fuels now, and the distribution network isn't ready for cars to be able to recharge 'on journey'. But electric cars aren't a bad start. If a critical mass of electric cars is reached, it'll start to make business sense to develop charging stations (or stations with stocks of swappable cells?) on major routes.

If we wait for these charging stations to appear before starting to buy electric cars, we'll end up in a Catch 22. And (stating the obvious, but) electricity for the cars can be generated cleanly and renewably, even if it isn't at present.

You may be right about California & other parts of the US having power generation problems, and that may well hamper electric car adoption in those areas; but that shouldn't stop others from switching.

All IMO. :)
 
What about the batteries? Won't they have to be replaced at some point? And how do we dispose of the batteries? They are made of some fairly toxic stuff aren't they?
 
I think we have to start somewhere. Whether we like it or not, diesel/petroleum aren't going to last forever so sooner or later something has to change.

I completely agree.

If a critical mass of electric cars is reached, it'll start to make business sense to develop charging stations (or stations with stocks of swappable cells?) on major routes.

Perhaps - but maybe that would just cause us to burn more fuel at power plants rather than look for alternative fuels...and who knows what that would do to the price and availability of electricity? To me, it feels like we'd just be exchanging one problem for another.

If we wait for these charging stations to appear before starting to buy electric cars, we'll end up in a Catch 22. And (stating the obvious, but) electricity for the cars can be generated cleanly and renewably, even if it isn't at present.

You may be right about California & other parts of the US having power generation problems, and that may well hamper electric car adoption in those areas; but that shouldn't stop others from switching.

I think we should be less worried (in the short term) about hybrids and electric cars and more concerned with just lowering per capita fuel consumption.

I think the true solution is simple (as all true solutions are) but twofold:

  1. focus on internal combustion engines that are more efficient. Diesels lead the way here.
  2. Continue working to develop renewable energy technology so that we (as a species) can transition away from fossil fuels before they are expended. Ideally, anyway.

There are a few big problems. First, battery technology is lagging way behind almost everything else. Despite our best efforts, many electric cars don't have much more range than the first electric cars from over 100 years ago. We just haven't found a way to store anywhere near the kind of energy that fossil fuels contain in batteries (per unit of weight and volume).

Batteries are also not very "green" in and of themselves; they usually contain heavy metals and are not easy to make.

Electric motors seem the best alternative powerplant for cars of the future - however electric cars are only as good as their power source, and at the moment batteries and fuel cells are a long way away from being ready to replace the piston engine. I feel like gasoline hybrids are a band-aid that makes us feel good about ourselves but fails to really solve any problems. If we all switched to smaller vehicles and switched from gas to diesel, we could save millions of barrels of oil a day. That could translate to stretching fossil fuel reserves for many years and giving us more time to perfect successor technologies.
 
True on the economies of scale bit - although the batteries are always going to be pricey.

I keep hammering the same point here, but the Volt would see a quite significant fuel economy boost by switching to a diesel engine to charge the batteries and run the motors. Sort it out, US car companies...it's not like we don't sell diesel here.
That's the great thing about a platform like the Volt, or anything like it: you can easily change whatever gives the electricity. Gas not working right? The American public finally getting their asses out of their collective heads about diesel? Just get one the right size, and hook it up to the generator. It works for trains. Small fusion reactors finally a possibility? Bingo!
And not without a bit of irony as Rudolf Diesel patented his engine in the U.S. (608,845), and we don't use it - though that's because of the Oil companies, not the car companies.
If GM hadn't ****ed up when they tried bringing diesel cars to the market, it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. We still have some old M-B diesels kicking around, and probably a good bunch of them run on SVO by now.
That would be like Subaru selling FWD cars again...it's not what the brand is about.

Subaru still sells FWD cars, just not in the US or Europe.
 
That's the great thing about a platform like the Volt, or anything like it: you can easily change whatever gives the electricity. Gas not working right? The American public finally getting their asses out of their collective heads about diesel? Just get one the right size, and hook it up to the generator. It works for trains. Small fusion reactors finally a possibility? Bingo!

If GM hadn't ****ed up when they tried bringing diesel cars to the market, it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. We still have some old M-B diesels kicking around, and probably a good bunch of them run on SVO by now.


Subaru still sells FWD cars, just not in the US or Europe.

Why did you burst my bubble of Subarus awesomeness? :(

Don't forget the dealership markup. Some of the automotive blogs have people complaining that the dealerships are adding a $10k markup to the already expensive vehicle.
 
I completely agree.



Perhaps - but maybe that would just cause us to burn more fuel at power plants rather than look for alternative fuels...and who knows what that would do to the price and availability of electricity? To me, it feels like we'd just be exchanging one problem for another.

While that part is true that we would burn more fuel at power planets one advantage you are forgetting about is the power planets are by far much more efficient at producing power than the internal combustion engine on your car. On top of that it is much easier to capture and clean the pollution the power planet produces over what the cars produce. On top of that we can easily most our power over to other renewable choices.




I think we should be less worried (in the short term) about hybrids and electric cars and more concerned with just lowering per capita fuel consumption.

I think the true solution is simple (as all true solutions are) but twofold:

  1. focus on internal combustion engines that are more efficient. Diesels lead the way here.
  2. Continue working to develop renewable energy technology so that we (as a species) can transition away from fossil fuels before they are expended. Ideally, anyway.

There are a few big problems. First, battery technology is lagging way behind almost everything else. Despite our best efforts, many electric cars don't have much more range than the first electric cars from over 100 years ago. We just haven't found a way to store anywhere near the kind of energy that fossil fuels contain in batteries (per unit of weight and volume).

Batteries are also not very "green" in and of themselves; they usually contain heavy metals and are not easy to make.

Electric motors seem the best alternative powerplant for cars of the future - however electric cars are only as good as their power source, and at the moment batteries and fuel cells are a long way away from being ready to replace the piston engine. I feel like gasoline hybrids are a band-aid that makes us feel good about ourselves but fails to really solve any problems. If we all switched to smaller vehicles and switched from gas to diesel, we could save millions of barrels of oil a day. That could translate to stretching fossil fuel reserves for many years and giving us more time to perfect successor technologies.


One thing about hybrids tech is we can run the combustion engines in a car at peak efficiency and we can design the engines to run much more efficiency than they can on cars today. Reason for this is the engine can be run at a much more limited RPM range since all it will do is charge the batteries. It does not have to run at a very wide range that we need now. Take for example my car. It has to run from 1k RPM up to 6200RPM. Now in normal travel the range is still 1kRPM up to about 4kRPM. That is a pretty big range. If the car was a hybrid it could be set to run at lets say 3k RPMs. do it does not need to be designed to hit the 6200 Red line and try to balance out efficiency across a 3k RPM range.

Also another thing with Hybrid tech is it is a good bridge between combustion engine and what ever the next thing is. We can easily replace a combustion power planet with some like fuel cell since all it needs to do is produce electricity.

And for the record I do not think hydrogen fuel cells are a good idea for the future but I used it as a example of how we can easily change the power planets.
 
I think the Volt is a success in terms of meeting its intended design parameters. However, I think the whole notion of the all-electric car and plug-in hybrids are flawed due to our current infrastructure.

As long as we burn fossil fuels to get the electricity, the electric car is just sweeping the fossil fuel/pollution problem under the rug by putting the "dirty" side of power consumption out of sight (back at the power plant). Also, there's no way our current power generation infrastructure could support even a fraction of the population switching to electric cars. California already has rolling blackouts - if people stopped burning gas and switched to electrics, the problem would get drastically worse.

I think electric cars are a dead end for the present...At least until our entire power grid makes large-scale switches to alternative energy, and there is no timeline for that currently. Also, there is currently no guarantee that practical fuel-cell systems will ever be truly affordable or mass-producable. The current offerings are all extremely expensive, proof-of-concept vehicles with short useful lives.

We'd be better off with diesels or diesel hybrids. People don't want to admit it, but those are currently our best options IMO.

I really wish I didn't sound so cynical, but that's the picture as I understand it.

Very valid points! My only point to add would be that BMW already makes diesel cars that use the company's EfficientDynamics technology to regenerate wasted energy. In the end, what might solve our energy crisis is the combination of alternative energy, frugality on the user end and trying to capture and re-use as much energy and energy-intensive (to make) products as possible. To me, there is no great difference between a hybrid and a BMW diesel that stops in stationary traffic. Of course, in city centres, using a purely electric drive helps to keep the air clean, which is something that diesel engines are not good at.


Well, they should research capacitors then, never wear out, and charge veeeeewy quick. Like EEstor



Very good point. And not without a bit of irony as Rudolf Diesel patented his engine in the U.S. (608,845), and we don't use it - though that's because of the Oil companies, not the car companies.

I agree we should use the diesel. After the apocalypse, you could make your own fuel from zombie bodies!

Used vegetable oil or quality diesel would be a start...

True on the economies of scale bit - although the batteries are always going to be pricey.

I keep hammering the same point here, but the Volt would see a quite significant fuel economy boost by switching to a diesel engine to charge the batteries and run the motors. Sort it out, US car companies...it's not like we don't sell diesel here.

I heard it that the reason why BMW stopped selling diesel cars in the US was that the engines failed, due to the very poor quality. In Europe, you can get quality fuel, but in the US, diesel is still the fuel of trucks, primarily.

Just one statistics: in continental Europe (not in the UK), new diesel cars have been outselling petrol ones for almost a decade, despite the premium.

That's the great thing about a platform like the Volt, or anything like it: you can easily change whatever gives the electricity. Gas not working right? The American public finally getting their asses out of their collective heads about diesel? Just get one the right size, and hook it up to the generator. It works for trains. Small fusion reactors finally a possibility? Bingo!

If GM hadn't ****ed up when they tried bringing diesel cars to the market, it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. We still have some old M-B diesels kicking around, and probably a good bunch of them run on SVO by now.


Subaru still sells FWD cars, just not in the US or Europe.

You may easily change the source of electricity (actually, you cannot, it mainly comes from coal and oil in the US, I think), but so far, there is no decent technology available to solve the problem of storing electricity. Batteries suck and the Volt still uses ancient batteries that you would find in all sorts of consumer products. That is a car, running on laptop batteries (or AA's, if you prefer).

Why did you burst my bubble of Subarus awesomeness? :(

Don't forget the dealership markup. Some of the automotive blogs have people complaining that the dealerships are adding a $10k markup to the already expensive vehicle.

You shouldn't have any impression about Subarus. They really have the traction of a train (AWD ones, of course - why would you buy anything else?!), but everything else is just midrange quality at best.

I've had a 1998 Impreza estate several years ago and it was OK. Recently, I've had a 2007 Legacy Outback from work. Nice glass on the top and good traction, but I have no intention of trading a BMW or Mercedes for it the next time. The interior is low quality and Subaru has no understanding of fuel efficiency, it seems. OK, it's a 2.5L engine, automatic and AWD, but still... 25 imperial mpg?!
 
While that part is true that we would burn more fuel at power planets one advantage you are forgetting about is the power planets are by far much more efficient at producing power than the internal combustion engine on your car. On top of that it is much easier to capture and clean the pollution the power planet produces over what the cars produce. On top of that we can easily most our power over to other renewable choices.

I agree with you that series hybrids gain efficiency by running the internal combustion engine at a narrow RPM range representing the engine's most efficient speed. It's been done for over a hundred years that way in generators and a series hybrid drivetrain is set up exactly the same way as a generator.

Power plants are usually more efficent per unit of energy than autos, but right now they do not have the capacity to support a big switch to electrics. Also, the notion that power plants are cleaner than cars is debatable - many are, but many are not all that clean.

The critical point is, our power grid needs to become FAR more robust (more, bigger power plants) before we can make a large-scale switch to electrics - and it will only be worthwhile if the power grid becomes significantly more efficient. It can be done, but it will take a long, long time - and probably have to involve a significant new construction program of nuclear power plants.


I heard it that the reason why BMW stopped selling diesel cars in the US was that the engines failed, due to the very poor quality. In Europe, you can get quality fuel, but in the US, diesel is still the fuel of trucks, primarily.

Just one statistics: in continental Europe (not in the UK), new diesel cars have been outselling petrol ones for almost a decade, despite the premium.

The US began transitioning to ultra-low sulphur diesel in 2006, and by now the transition is nearly complete. The new fuel standard brings us in line with European diesel. Before the credit crunch recession hit, many car manufacturers were planning to bring Eurpoean-market diesel cars over here in slightly modified form, but those plans were scuppered in the recession. Subaru, for example, has delayed the introduction of their diesel by a year or two.

But I think diesels will start arriving here in the next couple years, and people will buy them in increasing numbers. The USA is 40 years behind in the adoption of diesel passenger cars.

You shouldn't have any impression about Subarus. They really have the traction of a train (AWD ones, of course - why would you buy anything else?!), but everything else is just midrange quality at best.

I've had a 1998 Impreza estate several years ago and it was OK. Recently, I've had a 2007 Legacy Outback from work. Nice glass on the top and good traction, but I have no intention of trading a BMW or Mercedes for it the next time. The interior is low quality and Subaru has no understanding of fuel efficiency, it seems. OK, it's a 2.5L engine, automatic and AWD, but still... 25 imperial mpg?!

It's not really fair to compare a Subaru to a BMW or Merc though, is it? Those German luxury cars are much more expensive and the AWD variants are even more expensive still. A 5-series with AWD will cost 70%-80% more than a roughly equivalent Legacy. They are very different carsm with totally different customers in mind.

I have a 2000 Forester currently. Mechanically they are well-made cars, they have a strong AWD system and I like the ride quality over rough roads, which they handle much better than the Audis I've driven.

Their biggest weaknesses are only average fuel economy (by US standards; I get about 28 mpg combined), and average interior quality, especially in the Impreza and Foresters, though I have seen the latest models and they are much better. The 2.5L four is really a great engine in a lot of ways, but it's just not quite fuel efficient enough, and in my car that problem is exacerbated by the short-ratio gearbox, which is crying for a 6th gear.

Hybrids actually have an equal to worse carbon footprint than regular gasoline engine cars due to the production and disposal process of the batteries. As such, they are not green at all. They are just another one of these ****** feel good deals for hippies with no brains an engineering knowledge.

I disagree. Real hippies don't work and thus can't afford fancy hybrids.

Of the commercially available cars, a well designed diesel, able to operate on biodiesel from waste oil for example has by far the best carbon footprint or an ethanol burner that can work on ethanol fermented from plant waste via cellulose digesting bacteria.
I would prefer if we could get to the point where we either have cars running on ethanol generated from cellulose or keratin digestion or natural gas buring engines.
Unfortunately fuel cells are not that great either because of the palladium used in the batteries that is pretty toxic in production as well.
Cheers,

Ahmed

The problem with biodiesel is that it's far too scarce to adopt widely. Sure, it's great that Joe Hippie can run his 1979 Mercedes 300D wagon on fast food grease, but once everyone starts looking into biodiesel Joe Hippie won't be getting free oil handouts anymore.

Also, biodiesel demand has already started competing with food production and I can tell you right away I'd rather eat than drive.

You're right about fuel cell carbon footprints - but that's the least of their worries now because they still cost a fortune to make and have short useful lives, making them totally unpractical to sell.

So far the biggest problem is not getting internal combustion engines to burn alternative fuels (we've found many alternative fuels) but to produce enough alternative fuel and distribute it widely enough to replace petroleum - without interrupting things like food production or power generation.
 
It has a lot of standard features, and seems to be more on the premium targeted market vs. regular sedans.

Did the Preius start out on the expensive side as well?


Well, the Prius carries about a $5000 price premium compared with a comprable Toyota or Honda. But it sells for $24k without as big a tax credit (if any). So I'd have to say that the Prius Premium isn't close to that of the Volt. Plus, you can fit three car seats in a Prius. The Volt is a four-seater.
 
I agree with you that series hybrids gain efficiency by running the internal combustion engine at a narrow RPM range representing the engine's most efficient speed. It's been done for over a hundred years that way in generators and a series hybrid drivetrain is set up exactly the same way as a generator.


One thing to remember about eletric cars is remember most people will be charging them at night during the off peak hours. There is a lot of spare capacity during that time so we can push a lot more plug in hybrids on to the grid than you think.

Personally I believe hybrids are what will be our bridge between our current mode of personal transportation to what ever our next one will be. They are not the final solution but what will connect the 2 things.
 
Well, the Prius carries about a $5000 price premium compared with a comprable Toyota or Honda. But it sells for $24k without as big a tax credit (if any). So I'd have to say that the Prius Premium isn't close to that of the Volt. Plus, you can fit three car seats in a Prius. The Volt is a four-seater.

His point was what was the price of the Prius when it first came to the market? It wasn't at $24K, it was most likely higher. The Volt carries a lot of new technology like the Prius did when it came out. Also like the Prius, it will have a high price tag initially. The battery pack is said to cost $10,000 alone( and GM is still taking a loss on the vehicle).

Yes the Prius is now more affordable to the mainstream buyers, but when it came out it wasn't and it did carry tax credits( the Prius no longer qualifies).
 
The Volt should sell for no more than $20,000. What a ripoff!!!!

It is going to sell for that much above MSRP, according to some dealers.

So expect to fork out 50-60k for a Volt the first 6-18 months.

It is the new New Beetle, Mini, Mercedes SLK, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Smart Car, etc. which all had some markups the first year.
 
It is going to sell for that much above MSRP, according to some dealers.

So expect to fork out 50-60k for a Volt the first 6-18 months.

GM needs to smack those dealers in the head. This is part of the reason why I am for manufactures opening corporate dealerships.
 
GM needs to smack those dealers in the head. This is part of the reason why I am for manufactures opening corporate dealerships.
Never going to happen car dealer have bribe our politcal leaders to the point that nothing will ever be passes against the
As it stands manufactures can not legally open and run there own dealership and the laws make it very difficult for a manufacture to remove an agreement to sell to one dealler ship
 
Never going to happen car dealer have bribe our politcal leaders to the point that nothing will ever be passes against the
As it stands manufactures can not legally open and run there own dealership and the laws make it very difficult for a manufacture to remove an agreement to sell to one dealler ship

I know that and it sucks because all the blame for one bad dealer experience goes to the manufactures.

Dealerships have way too much power. You can thank them for the Pontiac G3 and G5.
 
This is why I do not see "electric cars" gaining mainstream popularity any time soon.


Because they don't want you to.
We should have had electric cars for short-haul 20 years ago.
It's all a big scam, and most Americans don't even know they are the chumps.
 
We should have had electric cars for short-haul 20 years ago.

Practical electric cars have been manufactured and sold for over 100 years. However, petroluem fueled cars have always offered longer range, more power, and generally lower cost. For short-haul runabouts the electric car has been available as an alternative almost as long as the car itself has existed.

EDIT: The price-gouging on the Volt is highly unproductive. The point of the Volt is to build and sell a practical, affordable series hybrid - the MSRP is already very high, so the gouging just makes the car unattainably expensive.
 
True on the economies of scale bit - although the batteries are always going to be pricey.

I keep hammering the same point here, but the Volt would see a quite significant fuel economy boost by switching to a diesel engine to charge the batteries and run the motors. Sort it out, US car companies...it's not like we don't sell diesel here.

I find this situation so frustrating. When I went to Europe this summer, I felt like an idiot after trying to put a gasoline into my rental car. I didn't even know it was a diesel. The smell and clunking sounds that we used to associate with diesels are long gone with the modern diesel engines.

I'm looking to replace at least one of our cars (or maybe both) and I like Nissan Murano. Here in the US it only comes with a gasoline engine and gets about 19 mpg. In Europe it is also available with a diesel engine and gets 35 mpg.

Anyway, I would normally not consider purchasing a GM vehicle, but the Volt looks really good.
 
The U.S. can build cars just as good as the best of the rest of the world, but only when we want to - which is a shame, because we historically haven't wanted to.

I see some changes in the US auto industry now and would actually consider purchasing something from Ford. Let's just hope that this trend continues.
 
If GM had listed the Volt for a good price they'd have a major hit on their hands. This way, it's just gonna die quietly, and then they'll complain about the world not being ready for hybrids. :rolleyes:
 
If GM had listed the Volt for a good price they'd have a major hit on their hands. This way, it's just gonna die quietly, and then they'll complain about the world not being ready for hybrids. :rolleyes:

I doubt GM could have made the Volt much cheaper. Hybrids are as yet nowhere near as cheap as regular autos, and never will be, since they are inherently more complex. I hybrid requires between 1 and 4 electric motors plus the internal combustion engine. It requires both a fuel tank and a battery pack. It also requires a transmission that connects the electric motors to the wheels as well as the internal combustion engine (except in series hybrids of course). A regular ol' gas or diesel engined car needs only engine, transmission and fuel tank.
 
I think the Volt is a technological dead-end given the steep US$41,000 price and the fact your car is lugging around a big bank of batteries as deadweight.

As an aside, expect a lot more turbodiesel cars in the US market over the next few years. Reason: the new Euro 6 emissions standard coming into force starting in 2014. Since Euro 6 is very similar to the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard and many automotive manufacturers want to get their turbodiesel engines Euro 6-compliant as soon as possible, that means it will be soon very easy for European cars with turbodiesel engines to be 50-state certified for US sale. There are rumors that a new generation of Euro 6-compliant turbodiesels being developed at Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz and BMW will likely be offered in the USA as early as the 2012 calendar year.
 
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