23-inch iMac on September 12th?

[ergle2]

The Merom has bigger cache, and you are quoting the low-end of Conroe...besides, I already said that Apple will NOT charge less for the consumer...forget it.

There is no "low-end Conroe". The smaller L2 cache is Allendale. Those models are cheaper and faster and, yes, have 2MB cache.

Okay, so Apple doesn't charge less. They can afford to put in better hardware (more RAM, a better GPU, whatever) and maintain the same margin. Even if they didn't, the *2.67GHz* Conroe is still faster and cheaper.

From the consumer's point of view, Merom makes no sense for a desktop.

 

[paulsecic]

I think this rumor should be taken with a grain of salt. It seems highly unlikely a 23 inch imac would emerge (or even should emerge). On top of that a bigger imac with Merom? Makes no sense, a bigger imac should have Conroe.

Imacs are entry level machines, unless they're planning to dump the 15" line.

 

[ergle2]

In 2 years time you will be buying a new machine, or playing good games still...I am happy with CoD on my iMac G5, and I couldnt care less about spending 100 dollars for each new game out there...that's the majority of the market.

Replace an iMac every 2 years just to play the latest games, when for a majority a new graphics card costing less than $200 would suffice? Ridiculous.

Apparently, you might not care about games that are several years old, but there's enough of a market that does, and Apple will miss out on them to the PC. And unlike other makers, Apple has a hook to keep people once they buy a Mac in the form of the OS, so dismissing segments for the want of something so cheap (the mobo logic will already implement the support anyway...) is pretty nutty.

It seems you believe Apple can do no wrong, no matter what they do.

 

[ffakr]

So that in, say, 2 years time I can upgrade the current rather poor GPU to something that will run the games that are out then well. Or perhaps so I can add in a decent EAX-compatible sound card. Or one of the many other thousands of PCI cards that are out there. Expandibility is good, and there's a large enough gamers market where the lack of an upgradable GPU kills the deal stone-dead. Alienware made a living focussing on that market alone...

Unfortunately, adding expansion will have a negative effect on the allure of the iMac.. the form factor.
It'd be nice to be able to upgrade the cpu and GPU later but I don't see this as becoming a priority for Apple.. especially since I don't suspect you'd go to Apple for the upgrades ;-)

I'm perfectly happy with the appliance-like nature of the iMac as long as the machine ships nice enough. Granted, PCI-E will be here a long time but you can be assured that the industry will march on and games will continue to push the envelope. If your main concern is gaming, then an iMac will never be the right computer for you. Remember, 2 years ago people were still building AGP gaming machines and now you can't even get a high end AGP video card. It's not even that AGP was insufficient (I've never seen a video card saturate AGP) it's just that the industry started designing chips specifically for a serial interface.. hobbling them for AGP use, and then market forces caused them to stop producing AGP enabled cards at all.

The reality is.. even if you build an ultimate gaming rig with the best parts, it's going to be obsolete eventually.. after you've continued to sink money in to it incrementally. Sure, we can still play Battlefield 2 pretty well with a Radeon 9800Pro and a 6600GT (8 pipe boards) those cards are far from optimal. My PC system is a nice Asus X2 machine with a 6600GT AGP and it's pretty much obsolete. Old CPU socket (increasingly every day as AM2 takes over), old Memory, old video interface, old components.

I think the key here, and this is my opinion.. is that the iMac will never be a platform to buy for gaming with the hope that you can dump incremental upgrades into for 4 years. (BTW, that's a deceptively expensive plan because people tend to upgrade part by part, but they do it over and over).
I think the key would be to get a machine that played todays games really nicely now. Then, next year it will play the new games nice. Then the next year it will play the new games just fine. Then the year after, it will 'get by'. Then you buy a new one (and keep the old one around for when your buddy comes over to play LAN games at your place).

 

[jwdsail]

I don't see why there can't be a pair of PCIe card slots with one occupied with a low cost ATI or NVIDEA DVI + Dual DVI ports coming out of it at that price point. Having Integrated Graphics would really be a crippling "feature" don't you think? Seems like it would be in Apple's interest to be able to sell 30" Displays for these less expensive mini Towers. A BTO Page like the Pro has would keep the lines simple while giving customers a lot of choices how to customize their "Little Pro".

Maybe this is what September 12 is all about - besides the new MBP of course. Perhaps Steve will introduce this new class of Mac to fill the headless void between the mini and the Pro.

No, no, no.. you misunderstand my post.

I'm saying the entry model of what sisyphus described should be offered w/ o a PCIe graphics card.. ie 2 open slots (user upgradable). I was just describing how I'd like to see any Mac like that be priced aggressively and be upgradable either BTO or user upgraded in future. If Apple could hit the magic $999.99 point w/ a cheep PCIe card in there, great.


jwd

 

[Multimedia]

I Thought Conroe Would Better Fill The Power Gap Than Merom

I thought some people were hoping Apple would use Conroe because it was cheaper.

I thought it was because they run faster. There's quite a power gap between 2.33GHz Dual and 2.66GHz Quad. I was thinking Conroe could somewhat fill that gap better. And I was thinking that an iMac redesign could solve the cooling noise issues - perhaps with those perforated edges like in the 30" mock up shown in posts above.

 

[TheManOfSilver]

• Ship times in the Apple EDU store for iMacs are now 2-3 weeks for all models.

- A 23" iMac with Core2 Duo or possible Core2 cpu. I'd love to see it with a CableCard slot for HDTV content. This would make sense but Apple doesn't always seem to make sense. I also suspect we'll see Core2Duo across the line.
or
- At a minimum, Core2Duo, maybe Core2 as an option across the iMac line.

Maybe different areas vary, but the iMacs are still listed as shipping in 1-2 business days on my local Education site here in Canada. I wouldn't be surprised if an upgrade is iminent, but it's not yet being foreshadowed with extended ship dates.

And I'm a bit confused about the "Core2Duo" vs. "Core2" distinction you've made. Do you mean Conroe vs. Merom (both Core 2 Duo processors)?

 

[Multimedia]

For Multiple Monitor Support

I still can't see the point...provided we have a good GPU, enough HD, enough RAM and all ports...WHY THE HELL would ya need a PCI slot for? To install those old OrangeMicro PC Emulation boards?

No. So you can have two monitors minimum and three or four if you like. I have been running with two monitors since 1986. Hasn't everyone?

 

[ffakr]

Replace an iMac every 2 years just to play the latest games, when for a majority a new graphics card costing less than $200 would suffice? Ridiculous.

Apparently, you might not care about games that are several years old, but there's enough of a market that does, and Apple will miss out on them to the PC. And unlike other makers, Apple has a hook to keep people once they buy a Mac in the form of the OS, so dismissing segments for the want of something so cheap (the mobo logic will already implement the support anyway...) is pretty nutty.

It seems you believe Apple can do no wrong, no matter what they do.

Or.. they might realize that commercial gaming rigs are really expensive too. Even Dell's high end machines are over-priced right now.
If you REALLY are thinking of the market segment that primarially games on their systems and they are willing to drop 3K on a killer AlienWare, then the Mac answer is a Mac Pro NOT an iMac. EDU pricing (the target market) on a bitching MacPro with an X1900XT and 2GB of RAM is just under $2800 ($3k with Applecare). That's a lot of money but it's a killer system with plenty of room to upgrade. The only thing it's missing is dual 16x PCI-E and Crossfire or SLI support though you can buy dual chip sli-on-a-card video cards now so there's your video upgrade path.

Again, just my opinion, but Apple really has bleeding edge gaming covered with the Pro. It's a wicked fast machine (we got our time in the Apple Performance lab).
Given the price for a high end gaming system (easily 4K with monitor and 5.1 speakers) I think regular iMac purchases aren't a bad trade off. If Apple can release an improved model with a real video card, and if you could get one every 2 years for $2K... then you'd be better off than with a $4K system that you were constantly upgrading just to get 3 or 4 years out of before the whole thing went obsolete.

The one thing I hate about upgrading my PCs is that, although I always have spare parts I never have spare systems. My house is wired for 100bT but it's a pain to have friends over to play games because they don't want to disassemble their rigs. If everyone had all-in-one iMacs or if I had a stock of old but decent old working (complete) machines it'd be much less of an issue.

ffakr.

 

[yoak]

I never game on my iMac, that´s why it´s perfect for me (I use it for editing, publishing my webpage etc).
I do understand people want to do that, but it dosen´t seem to be of interst to Apple to make a "gaming machine"

I do think the 23" iMac is likely. I would have bought one (if I hadn´t just bought this machine) as I would like to use my Mac as a TV as well and the 20" is a little small for that

 

[ffakr]

No. So you can have two monitors minimum and three or four if you like. I have been running with two monitors since 1986. Hasn't everyone?

You know, all Intel iMacs support Monitor spanning. Even the G5 iMacs supported monitor spaning if you tweaked the firmware settings.

There's no reason why you can't run two monitors on an iMac (internal and one external) right now.
If you need 3 monitors you a) need to get rid of the old monitors and buy 2 decent (and now cheap) large LCDs or b) you need to get a machine outside of the Consumer range.

BTW.. I run two monitors at work (24" (previously 17") on my 17" powerbook). If I needed 3, I wouldn't lament the fact that the form factor of my Powerbook doesn't allow me to put in a bad-ass PCI-E video card.

P.S. I'm sorry for over-posting.. I'm finally going to stop fighting it, I'm out to do the yard work.

 

[MacinDoc]

There is no "low-end Conroe". The smaller L2 cache is Allendale. Those models are cheaper and faster and, yes, have 2MB cache.

Okay, so Apple doesn't charge less. They can afford to put in better hardware (more RAM, a better GPU, whatever) and maintain the same margin. Even if they didn't, the *2.67GHz* Conroe is still faster and cheaper.

From the consumer's point of view, Merom makes no sense for a desktop.

The iMac is essentially a laptop on a stand, the form factor can't tolerate a CPU that generates a lot of heat. That's why Apple will also introduce a Conroe-based minitower on the 12th, with room for one HD, one optical drive, possibly one spare drive bay, and one double-wide express slot for graphics.

 

[deadkenny]

I wonder wether they will still name it "iMac" or wether they will switch to "Mac" to have Mac and Mac Pro like MacBook and MacBook Pro

 

[MacinDoc]

I wonder wether they will still name it "iMac" or wether they will switch to "Mac" to have Mac and Mac Pro like MacBook and MacBook Pro

The iMac name is too well recognized as Apple's all-in-one computer. The iMac will remain the iMac, although I suppose a new minitower could be called Mac...

 

[paulsecic]

Make that a Dual Link DVI Port so you can span with an external 30" display. #1 Reason there's a pressing need for the 23" is because it can display HDTV in native 1920 x 1080 format. This makes the iMac a legitimate TV with the addition of a simple $150 EyeTV hybrid Analog-Digital-SD-HD tuner.

I am predicting the new C2D iMac will have a complete redesign-makeover and look totally different than it does now.

This will be a design they can live with for another 2 years until the end of analog television in January 2009.I agree. The Dell 24" - same Samsung screen - has all three types of analog video inputs. Helps using the display for HDV recordings.

The end of analog TV is February 9th 2009.

 

[ffakr]

Maybe different areas vary, but the iMacs are still listed as shipping in 1-2 business days on my local Education site here in Canada. I wouldn't be surprised if an upgrade is iminent, but it's not yet being foreshadowed with extended ship dates.

And I'm a bit confused about the "Core2Duo" vs. "Core2" distinction you've made. Do you mean Conroe vs. Merom (both Core 2 Duo processors)?

Actually you're correct and I'm wrong.
Months of run-up to the releases stated that the desktop/workstation/server would be "Core2".
Intel was supposed to keep the "Duo" for laptops and add "2" for the Merom update making that a "Core2Duo".

I double checked and you're correct. Intel is officially calling all Core2 chips "Core2Duo". I think this makes more sense given they are all Dual Core even though it makes it harder to figure out what chip you're talking about.

When I said "Core2Duo" I meant Merom
When I said "Core2" I meant Conroe.

I'm REALLY going out for yard work now. I'll fix my old post tonight.

sorry all,
Ffakr.

 

[CJM]

If they're going to put Merom in it, that points towards Apple wanting to just update and cut costs. (No new Motherboard) That could also mean we wont get a newly designed enclosure, but it would just be a 23" version of the current model. Not that I don't like it, just removing the chin might improve things a little.

 

[alaskaunbound]

I just stopped in at the Apple Specialist I worked at this summer. I only left two weeks ago, but today, they had sold the demo iMacs and were in the process of selling the demo mini. I talked to our parts guy and he said apple wasnt shipping either anymore to the resellers. Im looking for an some desktop come september 12, and hopefully i can get something with a conroe.

 

[macintel4me]

If Apple can keep the iMac quiet like they can today with a Conroe, then more power to them and save us some $$$. If not, stay with the Merom and life is all good until they can upgrade the iMac enclosure. In the meantime how about a Conroe Mac Cube. I'll be able to keep my coffee warm by placing my mug on top of the vent too.

 

[jesteraver]

If Apple can keep the iMac quiet like they can today with a Conroe, then more power to them and save us some $$$. If not, stay with the Merom and life is all good until they can upgrade the iMac enclosure. In the meantime how about a Conroe Mac Cube. I'll be able to keep my coffee warm by placing my mug on top of the vent too.

lol.

I miss the cube

 

[GorillaPaws]

If this rumor is true (and it seems so), I'll finally upgrade my 15" G4 iMac. I told myself I'd do it once a 64-bit Intel iMac came out, and this looks like what I've been waiting for, the 23" size is just a huge plus! My current machine is still hanging in there (a real testament to the quality of Apple's products), but it's definitely time for an upgrade now. I can't wait! At first I was concerned about the choice of processors, but the difference in clock speed isn't that great and the cooler temperatures can only mean good things in terms of the longevity of the machine (I'm expecting it to last 4-5 years which is one of the reasons I wanted 64-bit support so badly).

edit: grammar

 

[Erasmus]

The Merom has bigger cache, and you are quoting the low-end of Conroe...besides, I already said that Apple will NOT charge less for the consumer...forget it.

NO. ALL Conroes have 4Mb Cache. NOT ALL (but at least the decent ones) have 4Mb Cache.

Allendale is not called Conroe for a reason.

Pretty much identical processors, except higher clock speeds, and FSB, for higher TDP. And Less Money.

Merom 2.33, 4Mb L2, 667Mhz Bus TDP 35 -> $637
Conroe 2.67, 4MB L2, 1066MHz Bus TDP 65 -> $530

CLEARLY... Conroe is the better choice for iMacs.
Put Merom or Allendale in the 17", and designate it for Educational use.

Put Conroe In 20" And 23" iMacs.

Oh, and I'll say it again.
The Mac Pro Is Overkill For Games. Games Do Not Require Quad Processors, Just A Great Graphics Processor. An X1900 In An iMac Would Make It An Amazing All Round Machine, Including Excellent For Games, With Only A Minimal Cost Increase (X1600 Pro -> X1900XTX ~ +US$200, half of this cost could be covered by choosing Conroe over Merom. Then we add cheaper Motherboard, and RAM, and suddenly we have an X1900 up from X1600, plus an extra dual 333Mhz to play with, all for free!).

(Ok, that makes no sense. Why does the X1900XTX cost 399, but the inferior X1800 XT costs 599??? WTF? Anyone who can explain this to me, please do.)

 

[jesteraver]

Anyways only going to get a new iMac or whatever they will call it by December 2007.

I am still happy with my iMac G5

Only need a MacBook now for school.

This is my dream mac...

iMac 30"

Processor: (2) Intel Quad Core (if possible, if not just 2 x Intel Core 2 Duo)
Ram: (4) 2 GB 1066 MHz DDR2 (if possible, if not just 2 x 2 GB 1,066 MHz)
HDD: (2) Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 750 GB (if possible, if not just 1)
OS: Leopard
Optical Drive: Blu-ray
Graphics: ATI RADEON X1900

It would be like a PowerMac all-in-one. I am a huge fan of all in-one, takes up less space.

 

[ergle2]

Or.. they might realize that commercial gaming rigs are really expensive too. Even Dell's high end machines are over-priced right now.
If you REALLY are thinking of the market segment that primarially games on their systems and they are willing to drop 3K on a killer AlienWare, then the Mac answer is a Mac Pro NOT an iMac.

If you re-read my comments, you'll find I'm not talking about killer gaming systems. That's a tiny market and the Mac Pro currently isn't entirely suited to it, but that's not relevent to my point, nor is it a market I'd expect Apple to chase.

Gaming is a consumer level passtime for the vast majority of people -- those playing, say, FEAR, HL2, the Splinter Cell series, whatever -- are not doing it on massively expensive high-end systems. They're doing it on hardware that's pretty damn close to the iMac.

Thus, the iMac could be considered a natural choice for such people EXCEPT once the GPU can't cope any more, that's it. Buy a new system. These days, that's roughly once every 2 years.

For reasonable gaming performance now I can get a PC in the same price range that will do the job at least as well as a current iMac, BUT I can then upgrade the graphics card in a couple of years time to keep it respectable. Sure, maybe another CPU, but today's Extreme Edition is tomorrow's mainstream and next year's Celeron, pretty much.

So, it's a fairly cheap upgrade, $300-500, depending on what I choose to upgrade to.

That's my point. Apple's not offering the same value from my perspective.

Throw in the huge push on Windows gaming that MS has planned for the Vista release, too -- there's serious money behind that, and it's a wave Apple could ride.

On top of that there's enough people out there who are used to the idea that they have card slots. PCs are highly upgradable due to their commoditized nature. Just the idea of having at least one slot has got to be worth it to a lot of people. Sure, they may never use it, but I'm willing to bet enough will.

If Apple doesn't want to, fair enough, that's their choice. It means I won't be buying a Mac for a desktop, and nor will many others. So, we both lose. A pity.

Y'know, the other real shame is OS X is good enough right now that a lot of consumers would stay once they switched.

Still, this seems to be going around in circles so I guess we're all going to just have to agree to disagree on this.

The iMac is essentially a laptop on a stand, the form factor can't tolerate a CPU that generates a lot of heat. That's why Apple will also introduce a Conroe-based minitower on the 12th, with room for one HD, one optical drive, possibly one spare drive bay, and one double-wide express slot for graphics.

I've read this argument before, about the heat. I'm unconvinced, personally -- See the G5 arguments, etc.

I still think it's about it being a "cheap" refresh, due to Merom being a drop-in replacement for Conroe, and they'll do an all-out redesign when they replace the motherboard for a newer chipset (say, Bearlake).

However, a Conroe-based mini-tower would likely get my $$$, depending on price. I've not seen anything to suggest it's anything but wishful thinking as of yet, but hey, count me in with the "wishers"

 

[ergle2]

The end of analog TV is February 9th 2009.

... in the US.

Rest of the world? Not so fast...

-

You beat me to it...

Yeah, a lot of people don't see to be able to tell the dif between Conroe and Allendale...

One thing tho:

Put Merom or Allendale in the 17", and designate it for Educational use.

Merom isn't a good choice if Allendale can be used due to costs - Merom is significantly more expensive.