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This is the dumbest thread I've ever read...seriously.

You need a copy of OS X for every machine you have. Just like any other operating system.

It's like saying I've got three cars but I can only drive one at a time so I'll just tax one of them...jeesh.

1. You do not NEED a copy for each machine you have. You are required (indeed requested, since no licensing/copy protection system operates) by Apple to have purchased or otherwise legally acquired a copy for each installation. That leaves only a moral argument for discussion, since the lack of installation trail means that an honour system operates, with no realistic possibility of legal repercussions ("I lost my installation media with the sales receipt paid with cash, your honour").

2. Car analogies are by nature unsatisfactory, and yours is no exception. You are only required by UK law to tax your vehicle if you intend to either use it or keep it parked on a public highway. How this can be extrapolated to the installation of OS X onto a computer is something I will leave to others who care.
 
Why does this thread remind me of Randy Quaid in Vegas Vacation:

"Clark, it's all you can eat, we only need one plate."

If you want to be like cousin Eddie, go ahead and buy a single copy and install it multiple times. However, when you get into the mindset that is Apple, many find it easier to just pay for what they use since they don't feel like they're getting ripped off.

Now, Vista on the other hand, I would be real hard pressed to pay money for that operation system -- if I could figure out which SKU I actually needed.

I did notice that MS is taking an Apple style with the Home version of their new Office 2008 - $150 for installation on up to three computers. I guess they are worried that the $99 iWork family pack would seriously cut into their sales if they didn't offer something similar.
 
Would Apple really punish people for using one disk on multiple machines that they own in the same house? I mean, come on people... You're using their product and unless you're stealing the install CD, they're probably happy that you prefer their product over the competition right? Just don't get all 3 machines serviced at the same time right? I only have 1 Mac right now that can install Leopard so I think I'm pretty much all set to buy 1 single license... so it doesn't matter to me. On the other hand... $70 isn't that much money for a guilt-free experience. Also, if a company is buying Mac OS X Leopard, they must get the family pack because a company is in more risk of getting in trouble because it's bigger and more professional.
 
Would Apple really punish people for using one disk on multiple machines that they own in the same house? I mean, come on people... You're using their product and unless you're stealing the install CD, they're probably happy that you prefer their product over the competition right? Just don't get all 3 machines serviced at the same time right? I only have 1 Mac right now that can install Leopard so I think I'm pretty much all set to buy 1 single license... so it doesn't matter to me. On the other hand... $70 isn't that much money for a guilt-free experience. Also, if a company is buying Mac OS X Leopard, they must get the family pack because a company is in more risk of getting in trouble because it's bigger and more professional.

You can justify it all you want, but the fact is, if you buy one copy and install it on every computer in your house, you are:

-stealing
-violating the end user agreement
-increasing the chance that Apple will one day institute draconian serialization/activation schemes on their OS
 
Just because someone leaves their car unlocked doesn't make it legal or right to steal it.

Yep, theft is theft. You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts. The fact that you can get away with the theft doesn't make it less of a theft, just a theft that you can easily get away with.
 
This type of license can be found with probably every piece of commercial software. One copy of the software can be installed on one machine. It's not Apple's newest tragedy. Apple is probably very lenient, if anything. Two more machines at a significant discount.

There are exceptions to this standard commercial software license. Microsoft Office Home and Student editions can be installed on three machines. However, I don't believe XP or Vista can be installed on multiple machines.
 
Well then, can you install OS X on an external drive and carry that drive around to different machines?

if "no" then the concept of "stealing" falls dramatically apart. In truth, the concept of "stealing" intellectual property is fundamentally different from other forms of theft. Most people who "steal" IP weren't going to buy a license to "own" that IP for their own license-limited use, because they do not consider the IP to be worth its claimed value. I'm listening to some song right now that I do not value at all. it's in my itunes because the previous owner of this workstation didn't remove their personal music when they left. I would not be listening to "hello traveler" by Darker My Love if it someone hadn't violated the license agreement issued by whatever label it is that owns this music.

It's up to the licensor to decide what their product is worth in real terms. In SE Asia, you can buy Vista for 3 dollars from microsoft. That's what they believe the people who will buy their products are willing to pay in that market. They believe enough people are willing to pay more in other markets to charge more than 100x that price for the same exact bits and bytes. They do this with complete knowledge of what percentage of users will be unwilling to spend this much money, and will either forgo the experience of being a microsoft customer, or find other means of acquiring the desired product. (if desired is the correct word...)

Either way, MS has done their math and figured out how to get the most money out of their products. Apple has also done this. They know that a large percentage of Apple customers have more than one Mac, and that they will probably want to upgrade all of their Macs to the latest point release, but will only buy a single copy of OS X. That's who they are targeting with the single license price.

A smaller percentage of those people will buy the family pack and give apple a few more bucks.

A smaller percentage than that will just download the thing and not pay for it at all, with various justifications/reasons/excuses.

Apple knows and has known all of this. They've weighed it all out and determined that copy protection would cost them more money in (meaningful) implementation and lost income from paying customers than they would recoup. They've made a different determination with their "pro" applications. People still "steal" final cut pro, of course, but the math works out in Apple's favor for these products.

Some of you have made it sound like there is an obvious line in the sand where things one one side of the line are legal and on the other they are not. The fact is there are clauses in EULAs out there that violate state/federal regulations and state/federal constitutional protections. License holders often overreach, just to "be safe" and claim rights to things they are not entitled to claim. Many companies intentionally inflate EULAs to make them unreadable and ponderous. Every time you update a new version of itunes, Apple has another opportunity to insert a clause saying whatever they want. Do each and every one of you read the entire thing, consult a lawyer and THEN proceed to update from itunes 7.2.1 to 7.2.2? methinks not.

And yet to be truly responsible, that's exactly what you should be doing with every EULA, just to make sure that you're not doing something that Apple says you shouldn't be. (in previous posts referred to as "illegal", although that's a questionable term to use for something that isn't in codified law, but a company's "contract" with a user.)

If you aren't reading the entire EULA, how do you know that Apple isn't adding a section declaring that listening to iTMS songs on G3 computers is a violation of the EULA? You don't. Is that willful ignorance? If the EULA is in any way a binding legal document, then not reading it doesn't protect you from any crimes you may inadvertently commit through your neglect, right? Sort of like "not seeing" the new speed limit sign in the construction zone...you're not going to get out of a ticket that way.

In fact, there's nothing stopping Apple from claiming rights to your firstborn child as a condition of updating quicktime from 7.0.1 to 7.1.0. And yet, you wouldn't consider that claim valid, would you? What does this have to do with stealing software? Well, here's a slightly more plausible situation:

Installing OS X on non-Apple-branded hardware. Apple says it's not allowed.
But why? Because they say so in their EULA? Is Apple allowed to make that decision because it's their product? If so, can they restrict the use of OS X to only white males? Or maybe only German cars are allowed to be connected to an iPod?

You can say that the limits on this should be "reasonable" and that my suggestions were not reasonable. But reasonable is not a defined thing. It's subjective to your point of view. In law, it's subjective to the opinion of a jury or a judge or a panel of justices. It's an opinion.

If (when?) Apple and Microsoft change places, Apple's current policies would be quickly condemned as monopolistic. In the Mac world, Apple's grip on things is much tighter than MS's grip on the Windows world. The only difference between evil monopoly guilty of crimes and required to pay out billions in compensation and a cool company that thinks "different" is a matter of scale. And the balance isn't as lop-sided as it once was.

I'm going to post here the current EULA for iTunes. My post thus far has been overly long...and yet it will take a great deal longer to read this EULA. It will probably get removed by a mod, it's so long. Which helps prove my point to some degree.

ENGLISH

APPLE INC.
SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT FOR iTUNES

PLEASE READ THIS SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT ("LICENSE") CAREFULLY BEFORE USING THE APPLE SOFTWARE. BY USING THE APPLE SOFTWARE, YOU ARE AGREEING TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, DO NOT USE THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THE LICENSE, YOU MAY RETURN THE APPLE SOFTWARE TO THE PLACE WHERE YOU OBTAINED IT FOR A REFUND. IF THE APPLE SOFTWARE WAS ACCESSED ELECTRONICALLY, CLICK "DISAGREE/DECLINE". FOR APPLE SOFTWARE INCLUDED WITH YOUR PURCHASE OF HARDWARE, YOU MUST RETURN THE ENTIRE HARDWARE/SOFTWARE PACKAGE IN ORDER TO OBTAIN A REFUND.

IMPORTANT NOTE: This software may be used to reproduce materials. It is licensed to you only for reproduction of non-copyrighted materials, materials in which you own the copyright, or materials you are authorized or legally permitted to reproduce. This software may also be used for remote access to music files for listening between computers. Remote access of copyrighted music is only provided for lawful personal use or as otherwise legally permitted. If you are uncertain about your right to copy or permit access to any material you should contact your legal advisor.

1. General. The software, documentation and any fonts accompanying this License whether on disk, in read only memory, on any other media or in any other form (collectively the "Apple Software") are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple Inc. ("Apple") for use only under the terms of this License, and Apple reserves all rights not expressly granted to you. The rights granted herein are limited to Apple's and its licensors' intellectual property rights in the Apple Software and do not include any other patents or intellectual property rights. You own the media on which the Apple Software is recorded but Apple and/or Apple's licensor(s) retain ownership of the Apple Software itself. The terms of this License will govern any software upgrades provided by Apple that replace and/or supplement the original Apple Software product, unless such upgrade is accompanied by a separate license in which case the terms of that license will govern.

2. Permitted License Uses and Restrictions. This License allows you to install and use the Apple Software. The Apple Software may be used to reproduce materials so long as such use is limited to reproduction of non-copyrighted materials, materials in which you own the copyright, or materials you are authorized or legally permitted to reproduce. You may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time. You may make one copy of the Apple Software in machine-readable form for backup purposes only; provided that the backup copy must include all copyright or other proprietary notices contained on the original. Except as and only to the extent expressly permitted in this License or by applicable law, you may not copy, decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, modify, or create derivative works of the Apple Software or any part thereof. THE APPLE SOFTWARE IS NOT INTENDED FOR USE IN THE OPERATION OF NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AIRCRAFT NAVIGATION OR COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEMS, LIFE SUPPORT MACHINES OR OTHER EQUIPMENT IN WHICH THE FAILURE OF THE APPLE SOFTWARE COULD LEAD TO DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY, OR SEVERE PHYSICAL OR ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE.

3. Transfer. You may not rent, lease, lend or sublicense the Apple Software. You may, however, make a one-time permanent transfer of all of your license rights to the Apple Software to another party, provided that: (a) the transfer must include all of the Apple Software, including all its component parts, original media, printed materials and this License; (b) you do not retain any copies of the Apple Software, full or partial, including copies stored on a computer or other storage device; and (c) the party receiving the Apple Software reads and agrees to accept the terms and conditions of this License.

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By using this software in connection with an iTunes Store account, you agree to the latest iTunes Store Terms of Service, which you may access and review from the home page of the iTunes Store.

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7. Limited Warranty on Media. Apple warrants the media on which the Apple Software is recorded and delivered by Apple to be free from defects in materials and workmanship under normal use for a period of ninety (90) days from the date of original retail purchase. Your exclusive remedy under this Section shall be, at Apple's option, a refund of the purchase price of the product containing the Apple Software or replacement of the Apple Software which is returned to Apple or an Apple authorized representative with a copy of the receipt. THIS LIMITED WARRANTY AND ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES ON THE MEDIA INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY, AND OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ARE LIMITED IN DURATION TO NINETY (90) DAYS FROM THE DATE OF ORIGINAL RETAIL PURCHASE. SOME JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THE LIMITED WARRANTY SET FORTH HEREIN IS THE ONLY WARRANTY MADE TO YOU AND IS PROVIDED IN LIEU OF ANY OTHER WARRANTIES (IF ANY) CREATED BY ANY DOCUMENTATION OR PACKAGING. THIS LIMITED WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY ALSO HAVE OTHER RIGHTS WHICH VARY BY JURISDICTION.

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10. Export Control. You may not use or otherwise export or reexport the Apple Software except as authorized by United States law and the laws of the jurisdiction in which the Apple Software was obtained. In particular, but without limitation, the Apple Software may not be exported or re-exported (a) into any U.S. embargoed countries or (b) to anyone on the U.S. Treasury Department's list of Specially Designated Nationals or the U.S. Department of Commerce Denied Person’s List or Entity List. By using the Apple Software, you represent and warrant that you are not located in any such country or on any such list. You also agree that you will not use these products for any purposes prohibited by United States law, including, without limitation, the development, design, manufacture or production of missiles, or nuclear, chemical or biological weapons.

11. Government End Users. The Apple Software and related documentation are "Commercial Items", as that term is defined at 48 C.F.R. §2.101, consisting of "Commercial Computer Software" and "Commercial Computer Software Documentation", as such terms are used in 48 C.F.R. §12.212 or 48 C.F.R. §227.7202, as applicable. Consistent with 48 C.F.R. §12.212 or 48 C.F.R. §227.7202-1through 227.7202-4, as applicable, the Commercial Computer Software and Commercial Computer Software Documentation are being licensed to U.S. Government end users (a) only as Commercial Items and (b) with only those rights as are granted to all other end users pursuant to the terms and conditions herein. Unpublished-rights reserved under the copyright laws of the United States.

12. Controlling Law and Severability. This License will be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of California, as applied to agreements entered into and to be performed entirely within California between California residents. This License shall not be governed by the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, the application of which is expressly excluded. If for any reason a court of competent jurisdiction finds any provision, or portion thereof, to be unenforceable, the remainder of this License shall continue in full force and effect.

13. Complete Agreement; Governing Language. This License constitutes the entire agreement between the parties with respect to the use of the Apple Software licensed hereunder and supersedes all prior or contemporaneous understandings regarding such subject matter, with the exception of any additional terms and conditions you are required to accept if you choose to use Apple's online store which will govern your use of such store and any Services you purchase through that store. No amendment to or modification of this License will be binding unless in writing and signed by Apple. Any translation of this License is done for local requirements and in the event of a dispute between the English and any non-English versions, the English version of this License shall govern.

14. Third Party Software and Service Terms and Conditions.
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You agree that you will use Gracenote Data, the Gracenote CDDB Client, and Gracenote CDDB Servers for your own personal non-commercial use only. You agree not to assign, copy, transfer or transmit the Gracenote CDDB Client or any Gracenote Data to any third party. YOU AGREE NOT TO USE OR EXPLOIT GRACENOTE DATA, THE GRACENOTE CDDB CLIENT, OR GRACENOTE CDDB SERVERS, EXCEPT AS EXPRESSLY PERMITTED HEREIN.

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The Gracenote CDDB Service uses a unique identifier to track queries for statistical purposes. The purpose of a randomly assigned numeric identifier is to allow the Gracenote CDDB service to count queries without knowing anything about who you are. For more information, see the web page for the Gracenote Privacy Policy for the Gracenote CDDB Service.

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You can justify it all you want, but the fact is, if you buy one copy and install it on every computer in your house, you are:

-stealing

No, you are breaking a contract, this is not stealing under the laws of any country I know of.

Stealing only applies to taking something physical.

Not saying one is any better or any worse than the other, they are both wrong, but they are different.

Please do not abuse the language by trying to remove differentiation that exists for a reason.

Right now I feel the need to go shout at someone for apostrophe missuse (shudder) ;-)
 
Okay some people here are really over complicating a simple matter, if you have more than one mac then you must under law buy one copy of OSX per machine or the family pack.

While it is physically possible to install one copy on several machines it's still against the law.

I personally will stick to the law not just for the sake of it, but because I support the continued development of great software.
 
wow. it is not against the law. Laws are written by government bodies and can be enforced by "law enforcement" agencies like police and the FBI and such. Apple's EULA is not a law, as has been said quite a few times in this thread.
 
No, you are breaking a contract, this is not stealing under the laws of any country I know of.

Stealing only applies to taking something physical.

Not saying one is any better or any worse than the other, they are both wrong, but they are different.

Please do not abuse the language by trying to remove differentiation that exists for a reason.

Right now I feel the need to go shout at someone for apostrophe missuse (shudder) ;-)

If this is true then why when I buy a DVD do I get a little video clip which says things like "would you steal a car?" and at the end goes on to say "piracy is stealing" ?

P.S. I live in the UK
 
wow. it is not against the law. Laws are written by government bodies and can be enforced by "law enforcement" agencies like police and the FBI and such. Apple's EULA is not a law, as has been said quite a few times in this thread.

When you purchase software you agree to the licence agreement, if you go ahead and install a single user licence on more than 1 PC that is software piracy and is against the law.

Yet again I am speaking of UK law but i assume its similar in other countries.
 
I never purchased iTunes. I never purchased OS X as a separate package. It all came on my Mac. When I bought my iPod, I was not presented with the new iTunes EULA to look over and sign before my purchase.

Most Software cannot be returned to a store when opened, and EULAs reside inside the packaging.

When you sign a REAL contract, there are signatures and impartial witnesses and notaries involved. It isn't "scroll down and click 'Agree'."
 
My guess is a lot of people on this thread would take the glass of lemonade without putting a quarter in the courtesy cup to cover the cost.

Oh well, at least they aren't stealing Windows (well, some probably are for their BootCamp partition, but that's another matter altogether).
 
Here's what Apple has done. They have said:
1. The price to upgrade your machine to the latest version of OS X is $129.
2. We won't charge you more if you are upgrading from older versions.
3. If you have more than one computer, as a courtesy, we will give you a mild to a steep discount on the upgrade pricing.
4. Also, as a courtesy, we won't put technical measures in place to stop you, giving you the benefit of the doubt and trusting you to pay the price we ask.

When Apple gives away the keys to the kingdom and says nothing more than, "Please pay the correct price." People say, "LOL! Apple is so stupid! I will just install as many copies as I can!"


Nicely said. :)
 
if it were as simple as you say, the Aperture and Final Cut and Shake and Motion and all of those Apple "Pro" apps would be free of copy protection as well. It isn't, however, that simple. But I'm not going to spell it out again.

Most people will buy a single copy of OS X and install it on their 2 Macs. Because most Mac users probably have 2 macs. Most of them probably think that buying a copy of OS X should allow them to put it on both of their machines, and that if it weren't "allowed" then it wouldn't happen. Apple decided that it isn't financially worth the backlash they would get from loyal consumers if they put copy protections in place. They're trying to win people over to OS X not so that people will use OS X and be happier people, but so that people will buy more Macs with high profit margins, and ipods and iphones and so forth. OS X isn't a big money maker for Apple, so they aren't too worried about you buying a single license and putting it on two machines.

If your conscience is fine with the implications of that, then for the moment is appears that Apple is fine with it as well. If they want to enforce their license restrictions, they are free to do so, but there will be consequences. They have already decided that they will charge a certain amount for their OS, and they will punish any retailer that charges anything less. Apple has made a conscious decision.

Some of us are morally outraged and think that others of us are going to ruin Apple or "force" apple to put in countermeasures to stop invalid installations. To those in our midst, I say relax. Let those of us who want or need to pay full price for everything continue to do so, and to reap the benefits of doing so. When you buy a CD, make sure you only buy it from somewhere that charges full MSRP, though. You wouldn't want to steal potential profits from someone.

And those of us who want to buy OS X but don't want to buy separate copies for each machine, I hope you can live with yourselves. I know it's hard to wake up every day and know that Apple's revenue was only 20 billion last year. Sometimes I cry about it.
 
If I have a Laptop and a Desktop computer... can I install Aperture on both with only 1 license of Aperture so that I can work on photos on the go and at home both... or do I need to buy myself 2 copies of Aperture to install on 2 machines that I use both of. I think that if the SAME person is going to be using the software on both computers... then it SHOULD be legal to buy only 1 copy of the software. It's not like I am buying 1 copy and then letting my friends borrow it and install it on their machines and letting my family borrow it and burning copies for people. I simply want the same OS on both of my Macs that only I use.

It's not like you have to go and buy 1 CD to listen to in your house and buy another CD to listen to in your car. You can listen to the same CD no matter where you are. I think that should be true with software. Notice how I said "I think it should" because I know it's not the same laws.
 
If this is true then why when I buy a DVD do I get a little video clip which says things like "would you steal a car?" and at the end goes on to say "piracy is stealing" ?

P.S. I live in the UK

Because they want to scare you and equate copyright infrigement with stealing when the two are different things (really, please try and prove me wrong, you will not be able to) and again something differnet from what is being discussed here. (which is licence violation and not even against the law, more a private matter beetween you and apple, the police cannot prosecute you for it even, the BSA may try but they have no legal hold, it's just people belive they have and let them)

it's people who like to abuse the language to get their own ends that annoy me. Stealing is one thing, License violation is another, and copyright infringement is yet another. What's the matter with you people, shall we just reduce the language to one word and just take everything by context of grunts? Would that make you happy?
 
If I have a Laptop and a Desktop computer... can I install Aperture on both with only 1 license of Aperture so that I can work on photos on the go and at home both... or do I need to buy myself 2 copies of Aperture to install on 2 machines that I use both of. I think that if the SAME person is going to be using the software on both computers... then it SHOULD be legal to buy only 1 copy of the software. It's not like I am buying 1 copy and then letting my friends borrow it and install it on their machines and letting my family borrow it and burning copies for people. I simply want the same OS on both of my Macs that only I use.

It's not like you have to go and buy 1 CD to listen to in your house and buy another CD to listen to in your car. You can listen to the same CD no matter where you are. I think that should be true with software. Notice how I said "I think it should" because I know it's not the same laws.


Duff-Man says....you are somewhat comparing apples and oranges - you can't treat the operating system the same as applications. The computer needs an operating system to make it work, period. The computer does *not* need Aperture or any other app in order to work. Virtually all commercial operating system licenses are *per computer* and not per user. To follow your logic, if I have a single computer that has 10 people using it I ought to buy 10 licenses for the operating system.

All I see are more "excuses" for not following the licence agreement you supposedly agreed too when you installed it....oh yeah!
 
When you purchase software you agree to the licence agreement, if you go ahead and install a single user licence on more than 1 PC that is software piracy and is against the law.

Yet again I am speaking of UK law but i assume its similar in other countries.

Would you like to show me this LAW?

You cannot because it does not exist.

A licence is an agreement beetween two parties and apple would need to sue you for breaking the licence agreement you agreed to. There is no law that covers this. It is a private matter.

It amuses me when people confuse laws with other matters.
 
If I have a Laptop and a Desktop computer... can I install Aperture on both with only 1 license of Aperture so that I can work on photos on the go and at home both... or do I need to buy myself 2 copies of Aperture to install on 2 machines that I use both of. I think that if the SAME person is going to be using the software on both computers... then it SHOULD be legal to buy only 1 copy of the software. It's not like I am buying 1 copy and then letting my friends borrow it and install it on their machines and letting my family borrow it and burning copies for people. I simply want the same OS on both of my Macs that only I use.

It's not like you have to go and buy 1 CD to listen to in your house and buy another CD to listen to in your car. You can listen to the same CD no matter where you are. I think that should be true with software. Notice how I said "I think it should" because I know it's not the same laws.

I have not read Apple's EULA, but MOST software companies (ie Adobe etc) says that only ONE copy can be used at a time...that means you can install it on a few machines, but only one instance can run. That's how I see it anyhow.
 
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