3 Runs, 3 incorrect distances

[Alith]

I did my first outdoor run with the Activity app today. The pace was way off as it was the first run and I'm assuming the current pace comes from the accelerometers, as with a Garmin watch. The distance was exactly what I would expect as it was a familiar route. The average pace after finishing the activity was also exactly right.

Hopefully the current pace will become more accurate over time as the accelerometers calibrate.

Sadly my Garmin was completely out of charge, otherwise I would have used both to compare.

 

[Jonmurgie]

I did a measured 5k on Saturday and only used the workout app (had my iPhone with me but forgot to launch another running app!) and was surprised to see it log a distance of 5.5k.

Just to add to this... I read up on the Motion Calibration & Distance setting under Settings/Privacy/Location Services/System Services and mine was set to off. I've flicked that switch so will see how it fairs next time out on the road.

However, today I did a 5k on the running machine at local gym and with the "Indoor Run" workout selected it measured the distance very close indeed. Surprised me a great deal that did!

Then went onto a few accessories exercises and used "other" which I don't mind using but it kept pausing of it's own accord a few times. Will keep an eye on that.

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The average pace after finishing the activity was also exactly right.

Distance/Time so no magic here, just good old fashioned maths

 

[tivoboy]

yes

Did you turn off motion calibration and distance in location services?

That would explain the differences, as having that off will negatively affect your results.

so, for me at least this has almost always been off. It was a battery drain, but I'll turn it back on now to see how that affects the test and accuracy to the watch.

 

[almonde]

My experience of the workout app is the same for outdoor runs. I'm not convinced its using the GPS on the iPhone, Garmin measures the run i do at 5.01 miles, Google Maps plots it out at 5.00. Apple Watch with iPhone for GPS, 4.5 miles.

The pace algorithm is also complete garbage, makes me think no one at apple actually took this thing for a proper run.

 

[swarmster]

I wonder if I should try and run somewhere flat then. my runs I have done so far have not been very flat. I'll try this on my next run. though I would think that part of the calibration would be the hill component... Since your stride changes slightly going up or down hills. And the GPS data could easily be used to help adjust the calibration here...

It seems likely that trail runs might throw it off (due to hills and trees), given Apple's calibration suggestions:

"Find an open, flat area outside that offers good GPS reception and clear skies."

Hills, up and down, cause you to take more strides for less horizontal distance. So your distance per stride could likely be underestimated. Trees will impact how many satellites your GPS can see, impacting distance calculations.

"Hold your iPhone in your hand, or attach it to your body with an armband (preferably) or waistband."

Another thing people might overlook, a GPS watch is mounted on your wrist, away from your body, with the antenna directed up. Sticking your phone in a belt against your torso will impact how many satellites it can see also.

My guess is the above are causing some of the discrepancies.

 

[Alith]

It seems likely that trail runs might throw it off (due to hills and trees), given Apple's calibration suggestions:

Nice find. It will be interesting to see how accurate things get over time.

 

[wizzywig27]

Hey all, just read over some of the info on here, very interesting.

FWIW I did a run yesterday, didn't take my phone or track it using any running app, however I did check the health data and calories burnt was in line with my Nike+ Sports Watch (TomTom)

Watch had me down as burning 658 calories, Avtivity App had me down as burning 961 total for the day, looking at the graph there are small amounts during the day which should add up to roughly 200 calories, so being 100cals out isn't too bad.

Total time was 52minutes, my run lasted just that, so spot on (although probably easy to work out using heart rate)

The weird thing is, my total distance in the Activity App 5.92 miles, and my watch clocked me as 4.15 miles, so when you take into consideration how much I walked during the day it's not a bad result considering my phone wasn't present so no GPS used.

I do have one question though regarding the Activity app, under the 'move' section on the phone, slide left and it brings up more data, which says:

Active calories 961
Resting calories 3307
Total calories 4268

Am I reading this right??? I burned 3307 calories whilst doing nothing? That seems excessively high, and if accurate why am I even bothering to run. I monitor my daily intake of calories and a general rule of thumb is, eat less calories than you burn and you will lose weight! I should be a LOT lighter than I actually am!

 

[tivoboy]

yeah, same thing

so, for me at least this has almost always been off. It was a battery drain, but I'll turn it back on now to see how that affects the test and accuracy to the watch.

yeah, I'm getting the same results as before having that Location Setting on, HUGE battery drain.

I have had GREAT battery life with that setting off, and no other real problems. GPS seems to work, maps, etc., and I get like TWO days of usage/standby.

Today, I had it turned on, and the battery went down 26% in four hours. That was not normal for me. Turning it off, it's now back to a 1-2% hours drain. So, we MAY have to enable this setting for the watch to perform better, but man it will be at the sacrifice of the battery on the phone for sure

 

[Andy in Embsay]

It seems likely that trail runs might throw it off (due to hills and trees), given Apple's calibration suggestions:

"Find an open, flat area outside that offers good GPS reception and clear skies."

Hills, up and down, cause you to take more strides for less horizontal distance. So your distance per stride could likely be underestimated. Trees will impact how many satellites your GPS can see, impacting distance calculations.

"Hold your iPhone in your hand, or attach it to your body with an armband (preferably) or waistband."

Another thing people might overlook, a GPS watch is mounted on your wrist, away from your body, with the antenna directed up. Sticking your phone in a belt against your torso will impact how many satellites it can see also.

My guess is the above are causing some of the discrepancies.

It wouldn't explain how an app on the phone (Strava) measured a run at 4.5 miles and the watch connected to the same phone measured 4.15 miles. I really don't think it's anything to do with where the phone is - my phone has measured accurately in a bum bag, in a pocket or in my hand - the problem is either the watch isn't getting a GPS signal at all (my theory) or Apple's algorithm is wrong.

 

[tivoboy]

height and weight

Hey all, just read over some of the info on here, very interesting.

FWIW I did a run yesterday, didn't take my phone or track it using any running app, however I did check the health data and calories burnt was in line with my Nike+ Sports Watch (TomTom)

Watch had me down as burning 658 calories, Avtivity App had me down as burning 961 total for the day, looking at the graph there are small amounts during the day which should add up to roughly 200 calories, so being 100cals out isn't too bad.

Total time was 52minutes, my run lasted just that, so spot on (although probably easy to work out using heart rate)

The weird thing is, my total distance in the Activity App 5.92 miles, and my watch clocked me as 4.15 miles, so when you take into consideration how much I walked during the day it's not a bad result considering my phone wasn't present so no GPS used.

I do have one question though regarding the Activity app, under the 'move' section on the phone, slide left and it brings up more data, which says:

Active calories 961
Resting calories 3307
Total calories 4268

Am I reading this right??? I burned 3307 calories whilst doing nothing? That seems excessively high, and if accurate why am I even bothering to run. I monitor my daily intake of calories and a general rule of thumb is, eat less calories than you burn and you will lose weight! I should be a LOT lighter than I actually am!

without knowing any height and weight info, it's hard to say what it is calculating for RMR (resting metabolic weight)..I credit apple at least for breaking these things out.. most machines you will find are trying to give you the user a GROSS number, not just what the activity is adding to RMR.

Yes, you can expect to most likely burn between 75-100 cals an hour doing NOTHING, just SITTING or RESTING. Adding any movement, moves that up, adding any measurable activity ads measurably.

Most devices are going to give a total, not a broken out amount.

As an example, I'm 6'5" and 245, and I have a measured RMR or 2500 cals. That's sitting not moving. Get up, walk, run, hike, bike, tennis many of those will add at least 500 more per hour, not to mention just daily movement. So getting to 3500+ is totally reasonable on many exercise focussed days.

 

[wizzywig27]

without knowing any height and weight info, it's hard to say what it is calculating for RMR (resting metabolic weight)..I credit apple at least for breaking these things out.. most machines you will find are trying to give you the user a GROSS number, not just what the activity is adding to RMR.

Yes, you can expect to most likely burn between 75-100 cals an hour doing NOTHING, just SITTING or RESTING. Adding any movement, moves that up, adding any measurable activity ads measurably.

Most devices are going to give a total, not a broken out amount.

As an example, I'm 6'5" and 245, and I have a measured RMR or 2500 cals. That's sitting not moving. Get up, walk, run, hike, bike, tennis many of those will add at least 500 more per hour, not to mention just daily movement. So getting to 3500+ is totally reasonable on many exercise focussed days.

I am 6"2' and weight 16stone 8lbs (232lbs or 105kg), but Apple doesn't know this (I domt recall ever adding it), so it's a big assumption to make.

What is more concerning to me is where I am going wrong to not even lose weight, that means I am eating more than 4000 calories?

 

[JoEw]

Insane, Apple would market the running aspect of this product so heavily and completely fall flat in the software area, didn't they spend years having people workout in buildings to calibrate this thing? Frankly, I expected more, perhaps earlier prototypes had GPS built in and it was a last minute pull for battery life.

As a daily runner, I was pretty stoked of the idea of eventually being able to just run with my Apple Watch & Bluetooth Headphones.. because the Watch in theory should be able to calibrate itself from the GPS data.

Maybe Gen 2

 

[tivoboy]

totally not that simple

I am 6"2' and weight 16stone 8lbs (232lbs or 105kg), but Apple doesn't know this (I domt recall ever adding it), so it's a big assumption to make.

What is more concerning to me is where I am going wrong to not even lose weight, that means I am eating more than 4000 calories?

so there IS a setting the apple watch app on the iphone, you may have set it. For it to project that much calories burned, I can't imagine it is assuming you are large - since that is a lot more than most people would burn.

As for weight loss, just because you are not losing (if you are trying) does not mean you are eating more than you are burning. The body adjusts TREMENDOUSLY with lower temperature, slowing you down, not regenerating, etc. when it THINKS it's not getting enough calories.

At your weight and height, you'd probably be far better off trying to figure out how much you ARE eating, and try to keep it below 2000K a day, or 2500 or so on days you work out. Trust me, you'd see the scale move then.

 

[wizzywig27]

so there IS a setting the apple watch app on the iphone, you may have set it. For it to project that much calories burned, I can't imagine it is assuming you are large - since that is a lot more than most people would burn.

As for weight loss, just because you are not losing (if you are trying) does not mean you are eating more than you are burning. The body adjusts TREMENDOUSLY with lower temperature, slowing you down, not regenerating, etc. when it THINKS it's not getting enough calories.

At your weight and height, you'd probably be far better off trying to figure out how much you ARE eating, and try to keep it below 2000K a day, or 2500 or so on days you work out. Trust me, you'd see the scale move then.

Where do you enter this info? Edit: I see this info now

I am pretty certain today I've eaten less then 2000 calories

 

[SSonnentag]

Different apps do produce different distances. I have tried several on my normal route and each app is consistent with itself, but not with other apps. To me this indicates that the apps sample the position at various rates. With a high sample rate the distance would appear greater as more noise would be introduced via a sawtooth route effect. At a low sample rate the points will be farther apart, producing straighter lines between points, and a shorter overall path.

 

[TigerStephie]

It wouldn't explain how an app on the phone (Strava) measured a run at 4.5 miles and the watch connected to the same phone measured 4.15 miles. I really don't think it's anything to do with where the phone is - my phone has measured accurately in a bum bag, in a pocket or in my hand - the problem is either the watch isn't getting a GPS signal at all (my theory) or Apple's algorithm is wrong.

Yeah. I have my doubts if GPS is being used on the phone at all for an outdoor run. If you use a different app and GPS on the phone it should be the same (or very close) regardless of phone placement. If Apple learns your stride over time then what is it using to determine the stride of not GPS?

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Different apps do produce different distances. I have tried several on my normal route and each app is consistent with itself, but not with other apps. To me this indicates that the apps sample the position at various rates. With a high sample rate the distance would appear greater as more noise would be introduced via a sawtooth route effect. At a low sample rate the points will be farther apart, producing straighter lines between points, and a shorter overall path.

But most other apps provide you the map. So you would be able to see if it was cutting off corners or curves. I can't find the map anywhere for apple workout app.

 

[tivoboy]

Where do you enter this info? Edit: I see this info now

I am pretty certain today I've eaten less then 2000 calories

you can enter this info under the apple watch app on the iphone, under Health.

you'd be surprised how much OFF one could be with counting actual calories. I always tell people, make a log, MEASURE things, track EVERYTHING, and you'll be surprised.

I usually ask people to grab a portion of peanuts. How much is a serving. they take the jar, pour some out, we weight it, and it's THREE SERVINGS...that's like 55 grams of fat and 480 calories, boom it's GONE..

So, "pretty sure" isn't really sure.

 

[wizzywig27]

you can enter this info under the apple watch app on the iphone, under Health.

you'd be surprised how much OFF one could be with counting actual calories. I always tell people, make a log, MEASURE things, track EVERYTHING, and you'll be surprised.

I usually ask people to grab a portion of peanuts. How much is a serving. they take the jar, pour some out, we weight it, and it's THREE SERVINGS...that's like 55 grams of fat and 480 calories, boom it's GONE..

So, "pretty sure" isn't really sure.

I'm pretty good at weighing out nuts etc as I know they contain lots of calories, but I will monitor it more. Think the OH is over feeding me, tonight she gave me TWO jacket potatoes, I quickly told her one in future lol

 

[tivoboy]

something does seem to be odd

Something does seem to be odd though

I just finished a 40 minute walk using the TRACKING app, selected outdoor walk, tracked the whole walk, 3.2 miles, SAVED the activity, but in my activity tracker it only shows 20 of 30 minutes of activity, as if the 40 MINUTES weren't counted?

 

[Mobster1983]

So over the last 3 days, I've run 15 miles using the Workout app on the watch. These are routes I run regularly with my Garmin watch, Strava on the iPhone. They all produce 5 miles consitently. The watch, however:

Run #1 (Road): Garmin 5.19 miles, Apple Watch 5.01 miles
Run #2 (Road): Garmin 5.18 miles, Apple Watch 5.01 miles
Run #3 (Trail): Garmin 5.2 miles, Apple Watch 4.62 miles

I've had my iPhone 6 with me for all 3 runs (so the watch should be using the GPS) with no other running apps in use on the phone.

I've read some people's Apple watches are spot on, some are off like mine.

Just like to get ideas/feedback from all my fellow watch runners out there!

I used mine walking my dog today for the first time. The apple watch workout app logged 1.06 miles, and Map My Run logged 1.14. I'll have to bring my Garmin Forerunner out with me tomorrow to get an actual accurate distance and see what percentage the apple watch is off.

 

[ihatephish]

Thanks for all the info guys!

 

[tpouliot]

Distance is incorrect

I have to agree with everyone here that the distances are off.

I just did a run in central park. Google Maps plots it at 2.6 miles and the Workout calculated 2.93. That is more than an 11% difference / error. That is HUGE when it comes down to tracking distances.

Also, I have to agree that the pace is WAY off. I kept checking my pace and it had me at 11'/mile. I am slow, but I didn't think I was going that slow. When I finished it has me at 9'04"/mile.

I really would like to use the BUILT in applications and not have to rely on RunKeeper or some other 3rd Party app. I just don't understand how two apps using the SAME data can result in two difference distances.

I bought this as a FITNESS device, not as a watch. So far I am so underwhelmed/disappointed by . We can all say that it can/will get fixed in software, but could you imagine if FitBit, JawBone, and others had suck crap results?

I would like to THINK it can be resolved in software but need have Apple admit to some problems within the first 14 days so I can decide to return or not!

 

[neacail]

I'll be testing my watch against my Garmin Edge 500 cycling computer tomorrow. I always use elevation corrected distances on my Garmin devices, but I'll see if I can check my data tomorrow with elevation correction on and off.

Apple Watch: 15.00km
Garmin Edge 500: 15.07km.

70m out is less than the length of the short side of a city block. I'm not worried about that. The error between the devices is less than half a percent.

 

[mistame]

I did another run yesterday using Nike on my phone and the Workout app on the watch. This time I was sure not to start moving until both began tracking. The distances on the watch were spot on with the distance audio cues from Nike. Tomorrow I'll do an indoor run and see how that tracks.

 

[Symtex]

I bought this as a FITNESS device, not as a watch.

That was your first mistake. It's not a fitness watch at all. It has some fitness integration but it's main purpose is to be an extension of your phone.