3 Runs, 3 incorrect distances

[PatrickNSF]

For me it is Garmin 620 for 'official' run data and Watch for 'official over all health taking' data. I'm resigned to being a two watch person while running for some time to come.

Me too - it's a shame you can't get the Garmin data into the activity app (Health picks it up ok) as I'm probably going to be running with two watches!

So it seems we pretty much agree that the Apple Watch running options at – this point – don't measure up to Garmin, but that the overall health measuring aspects, as well as notification, etc. make it worth using.

Are you planning to run with both watches on, or do some other combination? I'm definitely interested in getting a consistent active calorie measurement each day, and like having important notifications pop up while running. But running with two watches seems like a drag. It's been fine for testing, but...

 

[parasky]

First run with my AW that I received yesterday. Ran a known 4 mile course and wore my Garmin Fenix 3 on my other wrist to compare numbers. Here's the comparison

AW Fenix 3
Distance 4.04 4.00
Average Pace 8:33 8:37
Average HR 140 138

I'm actually pretty impressed with the AW, I thought it would be off by much more. While actually running, however, the pace on the AW was all over the place and not remotely accurate. I'm sure Garmin has much more sophisticated algorithms for this. I also didn't like that the AW doesn't show average pace(or at least I don't know how to get that). Also, the AW doesn't show heart rate as a percentage of max.

I don't see not using the Fenix 3 as a running watch but I'm still trying to decide whether to keep the AW or not. The Fenix 3 does most of the stuff the AW does but is more accurate and I never have to take it off.

 

[Julien]

....Are you planning to run with both watches on, or do some other combination?...But running with two watches seems like a drag. It's been fine for testing, but...

Not planning, I have run 4 times now (just finished a 10 miler) using 2 watches. It's not so bad. I had been 'practicing' for a couple of months using my Garmin on my right. Now I just have one on each wrist.

 

[lchlch]

Yep, it's all turned on ok. The phone measures it right (I've done the same run with the Strava app running and it's pretty much spot on with what Garmin says) - either the watch isn't picking up the phone's GPS or the algorithm they use to convert GPS data to distance is wonky.

The odd thing is it's absolutely the same measurement as my Garmin Edge over much longer distances when cycling.

One more question, had you opened the compass app on the phone to calibrate the motion sensor?

 

[TallManNY]

I've done 2x40 min+ runs with it (and several bike rides - which are bang on for distance with my Garmin Edge) and both were significantly short which is what makes me suspect the watch isn't picking up the phone's GPS for some reason.

I think you're wrong when you say it doesn't use GPS - it's supposed to use GPS from the phone when it's available, but it uses this calibration process to improve the measurement when you've not got GPS - the page you linked to says (my bold).

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Me too - it's a shame you can't get the Garmin data into the activity app (Health picks it up ok) as I'm probably going to be running with two watches!

I think the watch uses the pedometer when it can (ie when you are running) in order to save battery life. The fact sheet says it will use gps for exercise where it can't get steps like cycling. But it doesn't say that it uses gps whenever the phone is present. Note your experience when cycling.

A third party's app might force watch to use gps. Or just use phones gps and out put to the watch.

 

[dhy8386]

I think the watch uses the pedometer when it can (ie when you are running) in order to save battery life. The fact sheet says it will use gps for exercise where it can't get steps like cycling. But it doesn't say that it uses gps whenever the phone is present. Note your experience when cycling.

A third party's app might force watch to use gps. Or just use phones gps and out put to the watch.

^^^^ THIS

Every app in iOS uses the same GPS data provided by CoreLocation framework. Within this framework, there are options to specify how often/accuracy you ask the OS for the data. The OS determines how it will determine position based on intelligent usage of cell and wifi and GPS and the accuracy you specify. It provides timestamps and location points and so calc the distance between and time and you have pace as well. Obviously, GPS is an expensive energy source so minimizing its usage is probably something Apple is sensitive to.

The motion sensors use the accelerometer and gyroscope and is counting your steps and can also calculate distance travelled, but its not location aware. Based on its name, the option on the phone for Motion Calibration & Distance I assume is using the GPS to correlate with its motion sensors to better calculate your stride, etc and hone the motion sensors. I assume the Watch is doing the same thing. Not reporting GPS data when you choose a Workout that is outdoors, rather just using it to become "smarter". Feels like it would take a few runs and walks or cycles to get this somewhat accurate. But not sure if it ever can be 100% as good as GPS but I dont know enough about it.

 

[pdaholic]

Here's my 2 cents on running without my phone/using the built-in pedometer:

Yesterday I ran with my iPhone in the same hand as my watch. Set it for 3 miles, and ran a loop that I know is about 3.2 miles. I know just about where the 1 mile mark is as well on this loop. I tend to be a variable speed runner, with my pace between a 7 second mile to a 9 second mile.

Today I ran without the watch, on the same loop. At the one mile mark, the watch was about .15 miles off. I thought, ugh, at the 3 mile mark it will be really far off. Interestingly, the watch was still about .1-.2 miles off. I again varied my speed throughout the run (and I even walked in a couple of spots as I had eaten too much before running and thought I was going to vomit).

I'll say that's the first time in 6 years I've ran without my phone. Felt pretty liberating. Being able to see my heart rate without a strap on (uh huh, huh, huh) my chest was really nice too. As for now, I'm okay with the pedometer's degree of error.

The one thing that's for sure, Apple is now getting (forcing) me to use its stupid activity app. I want to be able to scroll and see my pace/distance for each day. Looks like I'm now going to have to pick a day, scroll to workouts, select it, and make a mental note, then select the next day and do the same. Anybody else know a better way to look at the run data?

Lastly, I really disliked my bluetooth headphones. I've traditionally ran with a set of wired on-ear headphones, and I used my Soundpeats headphones this time. It was really annoying having them stuck in my ear, and made the sound waves change with each step of my run, creating a vibrating effect. I'll take any suggestions for a set of on-ear bluetooth headphones that don't look like I'm wearing a woman's headband!

Thanks for listening, and happy running!

 

[PatrickNSF]

Not sure if this has been posted yet –
http://www.zdnet.com/article/running-with-the-apple-watch-yes-you-can-leave-your-iphone-behind/

 

[pedregosa]

Garmin Vivoactive -- decent smartwatch for running

For those who think that the first-generation Apple Watch isn't going to cut it as a Garmin replacement, consider the Garmin Vivoactive, which was introduced earlier this year. It's a multi-sport watch with the running features of a mid-range Forerunner and some entry-level smartwatch capabilities -- notifications from your iPhone, in particular. It's fully waterproof and surprisingly slim. It has good battery life and great outdoors visibility. No, it can't match up to the Apple Watch in all sorts of ways -- but it is undoubtedly a more capable device for running and it works well as an everyday watch.

It's $249 without the heart-rate monitor and $299 with -- so quite a lot less than the more upscale Garmin Fenix 3. I bought it earlier this year intending it to be a stopgap until I got an Apple Watch, but I think I'll hang on to it for a while longer.

There's a detailed review from DC Rainmaker here:

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/04/garmin-vivoactive-in-depth-review.html

 

[D1G1T4L]

First run with my AW that I received yesterday. Ran a known 4 mile course and wore my Garmin Fenix 3 on my other wrist to compare numbers. Here's the comparison

AW Fenix 3
Distance 4.04 4.00
Average Pace 8:33 8:37
Average HR 140 138

I'm actually pretty impressed with the AW, I thought it would be off by much more. While actually running, however, the pace on the AW was all over the place and not remotely accurate. I'm sure Garmin has much more sophisticated algorithms for this. I also didn't like that the AW doesn't show average pace(or at least I don't know how to get that). Also, the AW doesn't show heart rate as a percentage of max.

I don't see not using the Fenix 3 as a running watch but I'm still trying to decide whether to keep the AW or not. The Fenix 3 does most of the stuff the AW does but is more accurate and I never have to take it off.

You sum up just why I have held off ordering the AW. I love my Fenix 3 and it does pretty much everything I need with great accuracy. If I did not have it I would be all over the AW.

 

[Alith]

Ok it's getting better after two outdoor runs with my phone. My treadmill run today had pretty spot-on instant pace.

 

[jbenkelman]

Kind of a tangent but which is better to use? Apple watch running app or Nike App? I have over 2k miles on my Nike+ app. Or are we able to combine the two?

Same here. I want someone to do a video review of the Nike+ app. Everything I find on YouTube is just using the native workout app. I am not ready to part with Nike+, its been such a nice companion!

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I can't imagine that these 3rd party apps wont see that people want them to figure out how to make it so you can leave your phone at home, and build into their apps a way to just use the step counter in the watch, or calibrate it for better accuracy to each persons running style.

I do kind of feel like thats a step backwards, and makes me think of the days when you had to use the Nike+ chip in your shoe, but all in all its going to be just fine.

I for one run in place where I would NEED my phone, because you never know what can happen, and I feel alot safer knowing I can make a phone call. Unless apple wants to make the watch have calling abilities with a phone and build in an antenna. Then we could solve all of the problems at once.

 

[JamerG]

Same here. I want someone to do a video review of the Nike+ app. Everything I find on YouTube is just using the native workout app. I am not ready to part with Nike+, its been such a nice companion!

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I can't imagine that these 3rd party apps wont see that people want them to figure out how to make it so you can leave your phone at home, and build into their apps a way to just use the step counter in the watch, or calibrate it for better accuracy to each persons running style.

I do kind of feel like thats a step backwards, and makes me think of the days when you had to use the Nike+ chip in your shoe, but all in all its going to be just fine.

I for one run in place where I would NEED my phone, because you never know what can happen, and I feel alot safer knowing I can make a phone call. Unless apple wants to make the watch have calling abilities with a phone and build in an antenna. Then we could solve all of the problems at once.

Having been disappointed by the Apple Workout app I'm back using Nike+, albeit this time with the Watch. I think it's pretty good. The display while running gives you 2 metrics (out of distance, pace and time) and you can switch between them pretty easily. You can also swipe across to control music (which I don't really understand or doesn't really work) or a map. No HR yet of course, but can't say I'm fussed by that.

Have experienced a couple of glitches when using it, but as a first effort I'd say it's pretty good. The exercise ring fills up even when you're not using the Workout app, so for now (with nearly 1k of runs in my history) I'm sticking with Nike+, which hopefully is only going to get better when they have time to iron out the teething problems and get access to the full watch features.

 

[jbenkelman]

Having been disappointed by the Apple Workout app I'm back using Nike+, albeit this time with the Watch. I think it's pretty good. The display while running gives you 2 metrics (out of distance, pace and time) and you can switch between them pretty easily. You can also swipe across to control music (which I don't really understand or doesn't really work) or a map. No HR yet of course, but can't say I'm fussed by that.

Have experienced a couple of glitches when using it, but as a first effort I'd say it's pretty good. The exercise ring fills up even when you're not using the Workout app, so for now (with nearly 1k of runs in my history) I'm sticking with Nike+, which hopefully is only going to get better when they have time to iron out the teething problems and get access to the full watch features.

I was thinking about this again, and really, if anything, I will be pleased to just be able to see it at a glance on my wrist. I use Nike+ every time, and its hard to see the phone in the band, and it puts me off stride if I need to check in/change a song.

I didn't know that they aren't tracking heartrate though? I sure hope they get on board with that quickly.

Are you able to run both the Nike+ app and the native Watch app at the same time??

 

[JamerG]

I was thinking about this again, and really, if anything, I will be pleased to just be able to see it at a glance on my wrist. I use Nike+ every time, and its hard to see the phone in the band, and it puts me off stride if I need to check in/change a song.

I didn't know that they aren't tracking heartrate though? I sure hope they get on board with that quickly.

Are you able to run both the Nike+ app and the native Watch app at the same time??

You can run with both, although apparently it can throw off the accuracy of the native app (although that may just be when you're calibrating it in the early days) - but I've found the native app irritatingly inaccurate even when using it on its own so far.

No 3rd party apps have access to the HR monitor yet - won't happen until the full SDK (?) is released to developers (later this year?).

 

[tivoboy]

various protocols in use

I think there are clearly various protocols in use for the watch,

Just as in core Location on the phone (and I can only imagine that some elements of these protocols are in use for the apple watch) there are various forms of location analysis.

Some using GPS.
Some using the motion chip
Some using the various accelerometers

Sometimes CL (core location) will indeed USE GPS, but this is of course the most battery intensive version of establishing location and thereby distance (the distance between TWO locations)

Sometimes and app or the iphone can query to CL for KCL location, sometimes KCL Location BEST, then I think there is a KCL Location NEXT BEST, etc..

So, it's not always a constant of the how it's establishing these location specific data points.

IF that is the case I would imagine that there would be not only clearly variance between a CL call that uses the GPS predominantly, but also with calls that use some of the different versions of KCL location approximation - variance between those subsets.

so, it's possible that given the SAME distance, with some variables not help constant (motion of the arm, battery power, who KNOWS what they all may be) we could understandably get DIFFERENT readings for what appears to be exactly the same distance and measurement device?

 

[Andy in Embsay]

Another run, this time with Fenix 3 with Scosche HRM on one arm and AW on the other, iPhone in a flip belt.

Garmin track:

https://www.strava.com/activities/297857368

As you can see it follows the road pretty much spot on and is the 4.5m I expected, average HR 135.

AW says I went 4.35 miles (unacceptable) and average HR 144 (near enough).

It'll be interesting to see what Ray Maker on DC Rainmaker makes of it - he has an AW on test and there'll be a full sports-focused review at some point.

 

[Kevek]

Anyone still having distance trouble...

I typically run the same path which Runkeeper, Google Maps, and a Bike Odometer all agree is 2.0 miles. My Watch has been claiming that this run is somewhere between 1.67-1.83 miles. So pretty drastically off of the total distance. (A 4 mile run was recorded by the watch as only being 3.42 miles)

I spoke to Apple Support and they had me unpair/re-pair my watch. This didn't work. I got frustrated after another inaccurately recorded run and decided to attempt to toggle the following setting off and then on again:

Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> System Services -> Motion Calibration & Distance

This morning I ran the same 2.0 mile path and my Apple Watch decided it was 1.97 miles. Much, much better. Hopefully it continues to be accurate (and improve) but I'm hopeful now.

 

[Symtex]

Its obvious to me that you cannot rely on the watch. Well at least for now.

 

[parasky]

Another run, this time with Fenix 3 with Scosche HRM on one arm and AW on the other, iPhone in a flip belt.

Garmin track:

https://www.strava.com/activities/297857368

As you can see it follows the road pretty much spot on and is the 4.5m I expected, average HR 135.

AW says I went 4.35 miles (unacceptable) and average HR 144 (near enough).

It'll be interesting to see what Ray Maker on DC Rainmaker makes of it - he has an AW on test and there'll be a full sports-focused review at some point.

I'm really looking forward to the DC Rainmaker review also. I love my Fenix 3 so I can't see the AW ever taking over as my main watch for running/cycling/swimming. For the rest of the time, I'm really liking the AW so far. I just hate having to switch watches 3 times a day.

 

[Symtex]

I'm really looking forward to the DC Rainmaker review also. I love my Fenix 3 so I can't see the AW ever taking over as my main watch for running/cycling/swimming. For the rest of the time, I'm really liking the AW so far. I just hate having to switch watches 3 times a day.

There is worst problem in life than switching watches.

 

[jbachandouris]

From reading this thread it is quite clear the AW is not ready to replace my Nike+ GPS watch with foot pod.

Since I don't receive many notifications to begin with, there is one less reason to stay with the watch.

I'll keep an eye on this thread in hope of better news.

 

[Symtex]

From reading this thread it is quite clear the AW is not ready to replace my Nike+ GPS watch with foot pod.

Since I don't receive many notifications to begin with, there is one less reason to stay with the watch.

I'll keep an eye on this thread in hope of better news.

Some might see it as a benefits. Less distraction while running. When I run, I don't want to think about emails, tweets and other real life interaction. I am there to clear my mind and disconnect from the world for a short moment.

 

[DouginMN]

I did my first run today with the AW and Fenix3, with AW results all over the place.

I started the run with using the Workout app. This was my usual 8 mile route, so I (and my fenix) know the mile splits well. At 3.1 miles, the AW Workout app had 2.70 miles. I stopped running, completed and shut down the Workout app.

Next I started the Strava app on the AW in running mode for the next .9 mile. Complete garbage. Pace was OK, but no distance was displayed on the screen. At the end of .9 mile (4 miles total for the run), I stopped running and stopped the Strava app. It had that segment as .2 miles.

At this point I was half way through my 8 mile run. I started up MapMyRun on the AW. For the next 4 miles MapMyRun and the fenix were nearly identical, and at the end of the final 4 miles of my run they were .01 different.

As everyone has said, the AW and the Workout app need time to calibrate. Although, I really don't understand why. If MapMyRun can get it right the 1st time (using the same GPS), what calibration is the Workout app doing??? I know some suggest that the Workout app is more stride and cadence based rather than GPS based. If so, is this for battery performance reasons.

Again, the need for calibration seems very strange. I've run with GPS watches for many, many years, and I don't recall ever having to calibrate them. I am aware that GPS accuracy is dependent on the software (along with settings and signal), and that GPS accuracy can vary from watch to watch, and across software/firmware versions for individual watches.

In any case, tomorrow I will try to stick with the workout app and let it continue to learn to see if gets closer to real life accuracy.

 

[dhy8386]

See my post here. It's not a GPS watch since it doesn't have GPS. Purely to calibrate stride length to better approximate distance for the accelerometer.

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=21227759