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$600 for 4GB, 500GB HD Lenovo. Did I just waste my money buying a Mac Air?
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I know I did say I shouldn't be posting here, but one comment caught my attention.
It was mentioned that it cost more to make the MBA thinner, but it does not seem like anyone has mentioned about the costs of R&D sunk into making such a design viable in the first place.
Don't forget that being the first to market the MBA, Apple naturally has to shoulder the costs of developing such a model from scatch. But when it hits the market, other companies can simply copy or adapt the design at a fraction of the cost, or at least, they have a ready template to base their own MBA-clones off.
So it doesn't seem fair to point out that Apple is charging such a high premium (assuming it even is in the first place) without considering all the other overheads that we do not see or consider.
It was mentioned that it cost more to make the MBA thinner, but it does not seem like anyone has mentioned about the costs of R&D sunk into making such a design viable in the first place.
Don't forget that being the first to market the MBA, Apple naturally has to shoulder the costs of developing such a model from scatch. But when it hits the market, other companies can simply copy or adapt the design at a fraction of the cost, or at least, they have a ready template to base their own MBA-clones off.
So it doesn't seem fair to point out that Apple is charging such a high premium (assuming it even is in the first place) without considering all the other overheads that we do not see or consider.
From what I have read online they will be very similar inside, with the same processor and Intel integrated graphics. The ASUS will have USB 3.0 and a mini-HDMI port instead of the Thunderbolt port in the Air, and it will also use a faster SSD.
Actually, since you're the one making the assertion, it is your responsibility to prove your point, not others to disprove it. Put up your numbers and be sure to cite reliable sources.
I'll save you some time though -- cost of production relative to market price is irrelevant to anyone but a company executive or an investor in the company.
What matters as a consumer is whether the utility you derive from the product exceeds the price to buy it. Utility being subjective, there is no absolute measure; a bargain for one person may be a rip-off to another. That's a fundamental basis for the Demand Curve concept (Economics 101).
You may very well think a Macbook Air costs more than the value it'd give you. In which case, you'd be silly to not go buy something else that better matches your needs. It would also be incredibly naive for any individual to think that his or her value assessment matches everyone else; just because one person doesn't see the value in something doesn't mean it doesn't exist for other people.
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That is completely absurd. No tech company is going to divulge actual cost of production. It's an unreasonable question with no way to answer it. Even guessing a cost would be ridiculous.
This is where a consumer needs to do some research and make reasonable guesses. They need to look at what you are getting, the price difference, and why one unit has a higher price. You know the price difference and what is different between the two machines. MacinDoc explained part of the reason for that price difference and I agree with his assessment.
The question isn't "Is the MBA worth it". The question is "Is it worth it for you?". Some, such as my self, will answer yes. Others will answer no. Clearly you are either leaning toward no or have already made up your mind.
Ugh, I'm disgusted to still be posting, but there are some very nice people still here.
iFixit I believe publishes a parts tear-down and cost breakdown almost instantly upon a new product's release. However this only accounts for the parts, not the multitude of million-dollar 5 axis CAD milling machines for the casings, or the thousands of engineering hours of design, or the millions advanced- sometimes a year in advance, to secure enough parts flowing into the factories -just to name a few. NONE of these costs will ever be truly known, as the net margin.
You don't like or can't afford it? Sorry, then it's not for you. Neither are many luxury products for that matter. Convince yourself that a Toyota is as enjoyable as a Lexus- or wait for the refurbs.
iFixit I believe publishes a parts tear-down and cost breakdown almost instantly upon a new product's release. However this only accounts for the parts, not the multitude of million-dollar 5 axis CAD milling machines for the casings, or the thousands of engineering hours of design, or the millions advanced- sometimes a year in advance, to secure enough parts flowing into the factories -just to name a few. NONE of these costs will ever be truly known, as the net margin.
You don't like or can't afford it? Sorry, then it's not for you. Neither are many luxury products for that matter. Convince yourself that a Toyota is as enjoyable as a Lexus- or wait for the refurbs.
The $775 price is a red herring as that configuration doesn't include an SSD, which is an important feature to some people. Spec the E220s with 128GB SSD instead of the HDD and you're at $999 after coupon (Sale price $1249, list price $1924). One might also wonder why there's a need for a coupon if they're selling well?
LED backlight is a wash; that's been standard on Macbook's for some time and the Airs are no exception. Lenovo's datasheet says the E220s has three USB ports, so I'm unsure where you got four.
Not much point in citing spec here, they're for the world to see and compare:
http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/ww/pdf/e220s_datasheet.pdf
It's sort of a weird comparison anyway as the E220s screen size is substantially larger than the 11" Macbook Air and substantially smaller than the 13" Macbook Air, as well as a lower pixel count (1366x768 Lenovo vs 1440x900 MBA13). The glare magnet Infinity Glass on the Lenovo is also a consideration depending on your usage environment.
It may be worth it to you to save a few bucks in exchange for something 28% thicker and 35% heavier (11") or 9% heavier (13"). That's your judgement call as to the value you place on these and other differences.
In the end, choose the system that best fits your needs and budget.
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From the last 3-5 posts, the general reply is "feel what's value to you".
@deeddawg: interesting point on the economics analysis. Indeed, I haven't seen posts to point how much the price difference will be compensated for the production while the rest is mark up, can you disprove my claim? Waiting for an insider.
As pointed out it's all about the feel, so, it would also be plausible for another person to say, I feel it is a markup. I understand it can irritate some people because they don't like to think that way, nor have anyone else call the product that way.
Are Air and Apple consumers in general price inelastic? Theoretically, it means willing pay at any price. (side note: Our neighbor bought an ipad, he doesn't actually use it much, maybe 1 or 2 days on the weekends.)
To All: What if the price of MacBook Air went higher, say, by another $100, will you still buy it? Will this drive away some consumers? If you buy it, what if I raise by another $200, $300? For those who also answers yes, at what point will you stop?
@deedawg: if a good number of consumers walk away, they, we can conclude the Apple consumers are not price inelastic.
Again, at higher price, if I come back to this forum, someone can still say "feel and get what's value to you", so does this argument really hold? In fact, you can reply this message to anyone at any price range. How I manipulated the price above could be a good test to see if consumers are loyal to Apple or are savvy tech.
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Well, remember that the original MacBook Air was priced significantly higher than the current ones. Some people still bought them at that price, while I, for instance, was tempted, but ultimately gave it a pass, because the price/value ratio wasn't good enough for my particular usage. When the 2010 revision came out, I felt that the price/feature matirx gave me good value, so I jumped in. Other people might not want the Air even if it came down to a $100, or they could get it for free, because it lacks some feature(s) they need. This is just how people mke purchasing decisions about anything, from cars to houses to what to have for dinner. I don't think picking a computer is any different. And people who buy Apple aren't all the same -- they are a very diverse group. The reason why I bought an Air is probably very different from the person behind me in the line. Some people may just be "loyal" to Apple, and others might be tech-savvy. There's just no sense in trying to determine whether "consumers" are one or other, because there will always be some of both, and a lot of people who are somewhere in between.
I suggest that the increase in apparent demand for the Macbook Air as the price/feature ratio has changed from 2008 to 2011 is a good indicator that a significant proportion of buyers are sensitive to the price/feature ratio offered.
As another point, the popularity of the Amazon 20%-off deal shows that many Macbook Air buyers want to save money on their purchase. Read through the posts in tat thread here and on SlickDeals and I expect you'll find a fair number of people saying they might not have bought an Air but for getting the 20% off deal.
Although I'm sure you can find some people who are "loyal" to Apple as a company, I suggest most are focused on the user experience rather than the company, and would move to a different platform if/when something better comes along that offers enough advantage to overcome the inertia of changing platforms. These latter would be price sensitive just like everyone else, but may put different relatively higher values on features in which Apple has an advantage.
What will be very interesting is to see the true price points and sales of the Intel ultrabooks coming out from Acer, Asus, Lenovo, Toshiba, etc.
Edited to add this response in lieu of an additional post:
As I said before, it is your responsibility to prove your claim, not other people's responsibility to disprove it. You're free to speculate all you want, of course, but unless you have verifiable sources for R&D/engineering budget allocations, tooling costs, support & overhead allocations, etc. it's just speculation. The onus is on you to prove it true.
Further, whatever the profit per unit might be is technically irrelevant to most people IMHO. As I mentioned before, the analysis that matters is whether the product provides utility at or above the cost to acquire. Some people do, I suppose, factor into their utility analysis their perception of cost to buy vs cost to make, but in various discussions with people holding this mindset it' seemed that few have had a real understanding of business or all the costs that go into running one.
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You're confusing 2 concepts : A product being overpriced and a consumer's perception of value.
I perceive a certain value in portability. This has a fixed ceiling price to me. I'm willing to pay 1500$, and in that 1500$, I'm willing to sacrifice some for portability. A 1600$ MBA would not be overpriced, but I wouldn't purchase it as it does not offer me the value I seek.
Again people : You not wanting to pay for something does not make it overpriced. Overpriced is a comparative function of offerings on the market compared to each other.
Consumer value is personal. It's up to the individual. I'm willing to pay the asking price for Ultra-portables to get their added value in portability even though they make some sacrifice on performance. I choose the MBA in this category because it was the best priced for the specs I needed.
The question that remains, why do you feel so strongly about the MacBook Air that you need to drag this thread on and on ? If you don't value portability, if weight and size to you aren't valuable, why are you spending so much time trying to convince others that your subjective opinion is some kind of fact ? It won't work.
I ASK THE MODERATOR TO WATCH THIS FORUM CLOSELY, KEEP THE RULES STRICTLY, AS THE DEBATE WILL GET HEATED.
I don't recall myself ever mentioning the term "consumer value" in the discussions, so it's something newly introduced just now.
There is magazine called Consumer Report(for people reading in other parts of the world), which rates and stars the laptops, phones, household appliances. It tells you what's good to buy what's not, what's worth it, what's not. In fact MacRumors.com tells you not to buy the ipod touch but buy the Air.
Indeed, someone can be very price inelastic when it comes to Apple products. But that's not for the everyday work class, definitely, not the strategy to choose a laptop. It's like saying "I like playing World Of War craft, I will buy it as soon as it comes out." Then, yes, I am speechless with that case.
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MacRumors' recommendations are based on the Apple refresh cycle. The MBA just got refreshed, so if you buy it today it won't be replaced with a new model tomorrow. The iPod is likely to get a refresh at next week's Apple event, so it'd be silly to pay full price for the current model today.
I don't know what your actual point is in coming back to this thread. You should spend your money on the device that works best for your needs. I would personally do enough research before buying a new laptop to know whether or not any MBA or a $600 Lenovo is the best device for me. If you're still wondering this after the purchase, I don't feel any need to defend your purchase or convince you to change because what you do with your money is of no concern to me.
Respectfully, I believe you've misunderstood the term. He's referring to the value perceived by the buyer, often in relation to the acquisition cost. This has been discussed quite a bit here, although perhaps not using those two words together.
Consumer Reports can be useful for their historic reliability data for products, particularly automobiles. What is its relevance here?
Yes, but Consumer Report's recommendations are just another opinion. They do offer good advice, but their advice is not going to fit everyone. What's good to buy for you may not be good for me. Things like this can't be decided objectively -- it's not a fact like measuring length and width of things. So you can say that a 13" screen is bigger than 11" -- that's fact. But which size is a better screen? That depends on personal preference, and you can't say that one is always better than the other for everyone.
That said, Consumer Reports did give a very good rating to the MacBook Air.
http://www.macworld.com/article/155603/2010/11/macbookair.html
Quick kulimer look at this piece of **** must buy!
http://1saleaday.com/ It started at $1200 and now...$600!!!
http://1saleaday.com/ It started at $1200 and now...$600!!!
i've said the same thing myself, but the reality, of course, is that threads do what they want. and we have to laugh at ourselves when we post: "do not post on this thread", (as i have also done on this thread); the evil thread tricked us!
anyways, threads change and, as has been mentioned, there are lots of people on here who might not drive a rational person to the brink of suicide.
now then, ...
as has been more or less said above, whether or not Apple has a higher markup is essentially irrelevant to the consumer. what matters to the consumer is who offers the same or similar products the cheapest.
for example:
suppose it costs company X $1 to make product P, which it sells for $500
suppose it costs company Y $499 to make product P, which it sells for $505.
company X has a HUGE markup, but they're still the cheapest, so that's who i buy from.
in fact, KPOM has claimed, and i don't doubt its accurate, that Apple does indeed have a higher markup. however, they also have lower production costs (because they score crazy deals with suppliers, etc.)
at the end of the day, the question for the consumer is: who sells product P the cheapest? nobody else makes a MacBook Air, but they do make similar laptops. so, of those similar laptops, who's prices are best?
so, although your question is about markup, maybe you could ask:
is the MacBook Air price fair?
what's one way to answer that?
Homework:
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Umm, the only one heating up the debate is you. All I see are the rest of the posters doing their very best to respond to you in a polite and respectful manner, and you simply either dismiss any replies that do not fit your argument or reply to them in a condescending manner, shift the goalposts or start talking about a new point which is tangential to the original discussion, which I believe has already been beaten to death. I can tell you that it is a very irritating thing to do, because it demonstrates that you are simply more interesting in objecting for the sake of objecting, than being involved in meaningful debate.
Nor do I see the value of talking about price elasticity, for reasons already mentioned in posts before mine. I think you have seriously lost your way.
Umm, the only one heating up the debate is you. All I see are the rest of the posters doing their very best to respond to you in a polite and respectful manner, and you simply either dismiss any replies that do not fit your argument or reply to them in a condescending manner, shift the goalposts or start talking about a new point which is tangential to the original discussion, which I believe has already been beaten to death. I can tell you that it is a very irritating thing to do, because it demonstrates that you are simply more interesting in objecting for the sake of objecting, than being involved in meaningful debate.
Nor do I see the value of talking about price elasticity, for reasons already mentioned in posts before mine. I think you have seriously lost your way.
This +1
i'm done fighting. i took the time to respond to your question, but if you want to ignore my posts, fine.
kulimer - your last 2 posts are the kinds of posts you are begging the Mods to watch for. People are being patient and engaging in answering your questions. Seems to me there really isn't a discussion going on here anymore.
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