60D announced, along with some new L lenses.

[ProwlingTiger]

My impressions:

Canon did a great job of pushing more people towards the 7D with the release of the 60D. I personally find nothing enticing at all about the 60D.

Only 9 point AF.
Decrease in fps for the xxD line.
Plastic housing.
SD card.

Really? Still only 9 points? C'mon Canon!

The parts that really bother me would be the plastic body and SD card. To me, the 60D betrays it's xxD brethren in the worst possible ways. I know some people don't mind plastic bodies, but when you've been shooting with magnesium alloy ones since the Canon 10D, switching is hard.

Similar thing with the SD card. There's a reason the 1D series uses compactflash. They're faster, among other reasons.

Then there's the swiveling LCD. To me, those are gimmicks. I can see where I could use it maybe once a year, perhaps I'd find more uses, but in the long-run, it's not improving picture quality, it's not helping me do anything better than I'm already doing.

As a sports shooter, with the 40D and 7D, I really don't think I'll be even bothering with the 60D. In many ways, I look at it as a downgrade to the line. Strategically, it may have been a good move by Canon to better distinguish the 7D, but from a consumer standpoint, Nikon now has a big leg-up as far as offerings goes (not that I'm switching).

I've been talking with some people from other countries on some Canon-related message boards about the 60D. Apparently the pricing in some other countries is such that there's only a ~100$US gap between the 60D and 7D. That must be really nice

 

[El Cabong]

Of course, the 5D is more expensive, I did not argue otherwise.

I brought up the price because you were missing the point, and you are, still. Here it is again: Canon is mirroring Nikon's lineup. I'm not nitpicking about features, I'm simply identifying product classes (best indicated by price).

Canon's decisions may be irritating (to some), but they aren't incomprehensible.

 

[ProwlingTiger]

I brought up the price because you were missing the point, and you are, still. Here it is again: Canon is mirroring Nikon's lineup. I'm not nitpicking about features, I'm simply identifying product classes (best indicated by price).

Canon's decisions may be irritating (to some), but they aren't incomprehensible.

Nikon D7000
100% viewfinder
dual memory cards
6-8fps
39 AF points
magnesium alloy body

I wouldn't say Canon is doing a good job at mirroring Nikon.

Honestly, I don't see the advantage of the 60D over the T2i. No point in buying the 60D, IMHO.

 

[OreoCookie]

I brought up the price because you were missing the point, and you are, still. Here it is again: Canon is mirroring Nikon's lineup. I'm not nitpicking about features, I'm simply identifying product classes (best indicated by price).

I'm not missing your point, I'm disagreeing with it: I don't think Canon is mirroring Nikon's setup, if it were, the 5D had an AF system equivalent or better than that of the 7D, for instance. Nikon isn't crippling it's more expensive half of its line-up. Neither the 5D nor the 7D nor the 60D would be limited by factors set in Canon's marketing department.*

Besides, if the rumors regarding the D90's successor are to be believed, it seems it will replace both, the D300 and the D90. Depending on the price, it may be bad news for Canon, this puppy (if the purported specs are real) seems more like a competitor to the 7D.

Canon's decisions may be irritating (to some), but they aren't incomprehensible.

I don't think Canon's moves are incomprehensible to me, I understand their motives quite well: it's marchitecture. I just happen to strongly dislike them.

And I happen to think Canon is shooting itself in the foot here. The best thing that can happen to both Canon and Nikon shooters is strong competition. I'm not married to a company, if they are under pressure by competition, they'll release better and cheaper products. If the get complacent (which I think Canon is), everybody suffers eventually. I may end up buying the successor to the D90 (or a used D700), so it better be cheap


* If Canon is trying to mirror Nikon, they're doing a pretty lousy job

 

[El Cabong]

I'm not nitpicking about features [...]

Nikon D7000
100% viewfinder
dual memory cards
6-8fps
39 AF points
magnesium alloy body

Again, totally missing the point. Not mirroring in terms of specs (refreshing that no one cares about megapixels anymore, btw), but in terms of product classes.

As far as specs, I'm not sure that Canon and Nikon share information about impending product releases with one another so that they can give each other a leg up on their major competitors (Nikon and Canon, respectively), nor do I think that Canon based the 60D on the rumored specs (which NikonRumors deemed unfit for a plausibility rating when they were reported earlier this week) of a camera rumored to be announced a few weeks from now at Photokina (not that I spend any time on any rumor sites, or anything).

I'm not nitpicking about features, I'm simply identifying product classes (best indicated by price).

I don't think Canon is mirroring Nikon's setup, if it were, the 5D had an AF system equivalent or better than that of the 7D, for instance.

AF system is not a price.

Anyway, I'm waiting for a D700 replacement. Maybe they'll use a 9-point AF system just for laughs.

 

[OreoCookie]

Are you/he serious?

Yes, he is. He researches and tests his equipment with scientific precision (he's also a scientist).

The 5DmkII was new and improved in practically every regard, lets not forget that it was the first DSLR to shoot gorgeous HD video we have come to expect in any modern DSLR.

It's like saying, "oh I CANNOT upgrade my macbook pro because it still has the same keyboard/trackpad my old one has." Well that keyboard/trackpad (read focusing sensor) worked for you on your current macbook pro (read 5D) so what is the huge problem?

Except when he doesn't: he doesn't like that the AF sensors are all concentrated in the middle and don't work well in low light even if you use a bright lens (f/2.8, f/1.4 or f/1.2). We went on a photo trip together hiking up the mountains. When we were hiking down late in the evening, his 5D (coupled to a 70-200 mm f/2.8 IS Mark I on a tripod) had more trouble focussing than my 80D with my ancient 80-200 f/2.8 push-pull Nikkor. Even though this is anecdotal evidence, I have no reason to doubt him.

He also claims the 5D Mark II has some banding issues so he's hoping for a 1Ds next.

Again, I'm not trying to bash Canon, I have my own gripes about my camera. What counts is the photo -- and I like his photos very much.

Again, totally missing the point. Not mirroring in terms of specs (refreshing that no one cares about megapixels anymore, btw), but in terms of product classes.

I don't think in this particular instance, the price point is a good indicator for the more expensive cameras of both manufacturers. You can't compare a comfortable limousine with impeccable quality to a sports car.

In that sense, the 5D is not necessarily competing against the D700 (which you juxtapose in your line-up) and the 7D, for instance. People buy cameras of this caliber with a specific use in mind: if you need a fast camera, you're probably better off with a D700 or a 7D than a 5D Mark II. If you do portraits or need large resolution, the answer may be different.

 

[El Cabong]

the 5D is not necessarily competing against the D700

I think we should just agree to disagree at this point.

 

[HBOC]

There still may be more releases this year. Canon always announces some models before PMA or whatever it is called.

 

[ProwlingTiger]

Again, totally missing the point. Not mirroring in terms of specs (refreshing that no one cares about megapixels anymore, btw), but in terms of product classes.

Well then they're doing a really lousy job of it. I'm a Canon shooter, but if this doesn't pan out well over the next couple years, I'll seriously consider switching. In terms of product classes, no, Canon will not be mirror Nikon when the D90 successor is out. And I still doubt they're mirroring Nikon even now. The 60D is purely a glorified T2i.

 

[Ruahrc]

The 60D is purely a glorified T2i.

You could argue that the 7D is a glorified 60D, and that the 5DMk2 is a glorified 7D, and that the 1D series is just a glorified 5DMk2...

I'm not 100% familiar with either the T2i or 60D but looking at them both there still seem to be some pretty significant differences.

Most significantly is the top LCD and additional hardware buttons for photographic control. While the same sorts photographic controls exist on both cameras, do not underestimate this difference, it is HUGE and makes control of photographic parameters in the field MUCH faster. After you get a feel for the camera in your hands, you can probably make virtually any needed adjustment to the camera without even looking away from the viewfinder. With the T2i you have to enter the menu a lot to make a change, which is slow and you lose your framing because you're taking your eyes away from the viewfinder. After owning a D80 for over 3 years now, and using others' lower end cameras, I feel these extra hardware buttons and top LCD really step up DSLRs into an entirely new level of ability. It's huge. Almost what separates the camera being a toy/gadget and being a tool. I cannot imagine using a DSLR where you have to go into the menu on a regular basis to make changes.

Next is the "dual wheel" control setup. The 60D has two wheels, one for the thumb and one for the index finger- this allows aperture adjustment to map to one wheel and shutter speed to the other- and you can change both simultaneously. With the T2i I think you have to either press a 2nd button (like pressing shift) to get the change. Again the 60D is providing an increase in usability/speed.

I'm not 100% sure but the 60D probably has a superior viewfinder. Given that the viewfinder is one of the most used pieces of the DSLR, again this is pretty significant.

I'm willing to guess that there are other further features within the firmware that are on the 60D but not the T2i. Things like bracketing range, flash compensation, etc. might be expanded on the 60D.

Viewed this way, it has always been the philosophy of the 20/30/40/50/60D's design to incorporate additional usability (hardware buttons, top LCD, etc) but not to make a high end camera at the level of say the 5D series because it is too expensive. This probably still exists with the 60D in that it gives you a big step up in some core usability features, but not so large a jump as to the 7D. And I agree with the opinion that the 5DMk2 was never designed to be a high speed shooter. They put the best consumer grade AF system they had at the time in it, short of stepping it up to the full 1D series AF system which would have likely upped the price significantly.

In a way this makes it very similar to the Nikon lineup. Photographically they are all pretty similar but the usability controls consistently scale up as you increase in model level. The D3100 and D5000 lack the top LCD, as well as a number of hardware buttons. The D90 adds quite a bit in terms of viewfinder quality, hardware buttons, top LCD, and others like the ability to use the built-in flash as a commander. The D300s is beyond that with enhanced build quality and further hardware buttons/features (for example built-in intervalometer and expanded bracketing options, etc). You see the same sorts of gains as you move up the Canon line.

Re: the D90 replacement- those specs are all rumors but even if true there is no way Nikon is merging the D90 and D300 into one body. If anything, a really strong D90 successor will only mean the D400 is going to be that much better. And again while the cameras may end up looking more similar on paper, the ramifications of what has changed will really be noticed in end users of the cameras (i.e. the D90 replacement will still probably not get enhanced bracketing, shooting banks, built in intervalometer, etc).

It's one thing to compare megapixels and AF point counts but you are ignoring the entire rest of the camera. It's like comparing a Camry and a Lexus. They have basically the same engines and chassis but the Lexus has significantly more fit and finish and features, which elevate it beyond the Camry.

 

[ProwlingTiger]

You could argue that the 7D is a glorified 60D, and that the 5DMk2 is a glorified 7D, and that the 1D series is just a glorified 5DMk2...

7D - mag body, weather proofing, CF cards, etc.
5DM2 is full frame
1D - shouldn't have to explain why that's not a 5DM2

Most significantly is the top LCD and additional hardware buttons for photographic control. While the same sorts photographic controls exist on both cameras, do not underestimate this difference, it is HUGE and makes control of photographic parameters in the field MUCH faster. After you get a feel for the camera in your hands, you can probably make virtually any needed adjustment to the camera without even looking away from the viewfinder. With the T2i you have to enter the menu a lot to make a change, which is slow and you lose your framing because you're taking your eyes away from the viewfinder. After owning a D80 for over 3 years now, and using others' lower end cameras, I feel these extra hardware buttons and top LCD really step up DSLRs into an entirely new level of ability. It's huge. Almost what separates the camera being a toy/gadget and being a tool. I cannot imagine using a DSLR where you have to go into the menu on a regular basis to make changes.

Next is the "dual wheel" control setup. The 60D has two wheels, one for the thumb and one for the index finger- this allows aperture adjustment to map to one wheel and shutter speed to the other- and you can change both simultaneously. With the T2i I think you have to either press a 2nd button (like pressing shift) to get the change. Again the 60D is providing an increase in usability/speed.

In a way this makes it very similar to the Nikon lineup. Photographically they are all pretty similar but the usability controls consistently scale up as you increase in model level. The D3100 and D5000 lack the top LCD, as well as a number of hardware buttons. The D90 adds quite a bit in terms of viewfinder quality, hardware buttons, top LCD, and others like the ability to use the built-in flash as a commander. The D300s is beyond that with enhanced build quality and further hardware buttons/features (for example built-in intervalometer and expanded bracketing options, etc). You see the same sorts of gains as you move up the Canon line.

Thefact of the matter remains that the xxD line was actually downgraded in pro-features and now more resembles the xxxD line. Plastic body, SD card,...

Sure it retains some of the things that made it it's own line, and I would argue that it still retains enough to have the xxD badge, but it was downgraded nonetheless. Downgraded in some areas, and not improved where it needed to be.

Re: the D90 replacement- those specs are all rumors but even if true there is no way Nikon is merging the D90 and D300 into one body. If anything, a really strong D90 successor will only mean the D400 is going to be that much better. And again while the cameras may end up looking more similar on paper, the ramifications of what has changed will really be noticed in end users of the cameras (i.e. the D90 replacement will still probably not get enhanced bracketing, shooting banks, built in intervalometer, etc).

With the price points in various parts of the world, of the 60D, Nikon has the leg-up now.

It's one thing to compare megapixels and AF point counts but you are ignoring the entire rest of the camera. It's like comparing a Camry and a Lexus. They have basically the same engines and chassis but the Lexus has significantly more fit and finish and features, which elevate it beyond the Camry.

I don't care about the MP count. Never mentioned it, actually. The 60D, yeah, it could come and blow the 7D (or...not)out of the water. We don't know yet. But based on what we do know, it's still a glorified T2i.

Shall we see what they share on paper?
60D:
* 18 MP APS-C CMOS sensor
* Vari-angle 7.7cm (3.0”) 3:2 ratio LCD
* Full HD movies with manual control
* DIGIC 4
* ISO 100-6400, H:12800
* 9-point cross type AF System
* iFCL metering with 63-zone Dual-layer Sensor
* Exposure compensation +/-5 stops.
* Eye-Fi connected functions compatibility
T2i
* 18 Megapixel APS-C CMOS sensor
* DIGIC 4 processor with ISO 100-6400 (Expansion to 12800)
* Full HD movie recording with manual control and selectable frame rates
* 7.7cm (3.0”) 3:2 Clear View LCD with 1,040k dots
* iFCL metering System with 63-zone Dual-layer Metering Sensor
* Exposure compensation +/-5 stops.
* Eye-Fi connected functions compatibility

The dimensions, you'll noticed, of the screen are even the same. Granted, the 60D's does rotate.

The most "advanced" difference, IMHO? Integrated Speedlite capability. That's it. All I'm seeing between the 2.

Sure, the 60D has a few extra hardware buttons and another LCD at the top. But, coming from a professional, the body can have as many conveniences as Canon wants it to, but at the end of the day, it's still a plastic housing without any mention of weather-sealing (granted Canon never mentions it on xxD products, but the mag-bodieed 50 and 40 did have some. mag bodied. mag)

To quote member Rocky from the Canon Rumors forum: "The new 60D is an okay camera except with the wrong name. With the name 60D, people (including me) expect improvement from 50D. Instead, Canon took away the faster frame rate, , PC connection, micro adjustment, Mg body, joystick etc. That make most people feel it is a down grade from 50D. As for the plastic body with aluminium chaise, that put it even below the Rebel with plastic body with stainless steel chaise. No wonder people are up in theirs arms.They just cannot see a real 60D in the new 60D."

So, on paper, as it stands, the 60D might as well be an advanced rebel. 1 scroll wheel and 2 lcds separate it from it's smaller brother.

 

[Ruahrc]

I didn't know what exactly has changed between the 50D and 60D, seems like there are some areas which took a step back.

Again don't underestimate the significance of those extra buttons, wheel, and LCD. Extra buttons means not having to go into the menus to adjust exposure compensation, or to change the metering type from spot to matrix. The presence of those buttons for many will likely mean never using those features, and learning to take advantage of them.

Plastic + Al construction is not necessarily a bad thing. Airplanes are made of plastic + Al, yet you don't see anyone complaining about it. Fact of the matter is that there are many grades of Al and plastic, and yes if you are using very cheap low grade stuff then it can be worse, but the fact of the matter is Al is lighter than stainless steel, and practically just as strong for what a camera chassis needs to be, so this can be viewed as a good thing (reduced weight). Loss of magnesium alloy shell is a bit of a bummer but advanced plastics can be made more durable and lightweight- it's an uninformed generalization to pan things like that unless you have more details. Many of the newest high end lenses are using plastic more extensively throughout their construction as well, because with the right plastics it can be made stronger, lighter, and more durable.

SD cards seem to be making their way up the camera lines, as their capabilities increase. Bigger sizes, faster performance, and cheaper price mean they are not going to be stuck in the "consumer grade" stuff forever.

As you mentioned, the xxD line never had weather sealing. So you can't dock Canon for not including it here. Weather sealing is just not one of those features you find on a camera of this grade- you need to buy better to get that.

I can see where the 60D is not quite as a huge leap forward as some would hope for, but I still think it has it's place between the Ti ones and the 7D for those who want more advanced features but don't want to quite pay the cost of the 7D.

 

[HBOC]

You could argue that the 7D is a glorified 60D, and that the 5DMk2 is a glorified 7D, and that the 1D series is just a glorified 5DMk2...

This made me laugh. A 1 series is a glorified 5D? Really? The 1 series is in a league by it self. perhaps you are confused? 7D and 5D are different lines, with different sensors and vastly different AF system. 1 series has 45 AF points, 5D2 has 9.

 

[ProwlingTiger]

This made me laugh. A 1 series is a glorified 5D? Really? The 1 series is in a league by it self. perhaps you are confused? 7D and 5D are different lines, with different sensors and vastly different AF system. 1 series has 45 AF points, 5D2 has 9.

Made me laugh as well. Horrible analogy. The 60D:T2i makes sense. More like the 60D should really be 600D.

Heck, even the damn ISO levels are the same now. Honestly, I can't see who in their right mind, living in the U.S., would pay more for the 60D. 1.6 more fps?

 

[El Cabong]

Thefact [sic] of the matter remains that the xxD line was actually downgraded in pro-features and now more resembles the xxxD line. Plastic body, SD card,...
[...]
The 60D, yeah, it could come and blow the 7D (or...not)out of the water. We don't know yet. But based on what we do know, it's still a glorified T2i.

Shall we see what they share on paper?
[...]
T2i
* 18 Megapixel APS-C CMOS sensor
* DIGIC 4 processor with ISO 100-6400 (Expansion to 12800)
* Full HD movie recording with manual control and selectable frame rates
* 7.7cm (3.0”) 3:2 Clear View LCD with 1,040k dots
* iFCL metering System with 63-zone Dual-layer Metering Sensor
* Exposure compensation +/-5 stops.
* Eye-Fi connected functions compatibility

You neglected to mention that the 7D also shares all of these features. The 60D is, with its price and specs, positioned between the 550D and the 7D. I don't know why you would expect it to be somehow better than the 7D.

Made me laugh as well. Horrible analogy. The 60D:T2i makes sense. More like the 60D should really be 600D.

Not really. The difference in features is commensurate to the price difference. For the 60D, you pay a couple hundred extra for a better body (better viewfinder, extra scroll wheel, extra LCD, and that swivel display that some people may actually like). For the 5D, you pay a couple thousand extra for a bigger improvement in features, and for the 1D, you pay few thousand more.

Your main problem seems to be with the name. If Canon had decided to go with "Super Awesome Rebel" rather than abusing the apparently sacrosanct x0D name, it probably would have upset fewer people.

I'm a Canon shooter, but if this doesn't pan out well over the next couple years, I'll seriously consider switching.

You're considering switching because a new mid-level model isn't as good as the rumored specs of its Nikon equivalent? Probably a good idea. Next thing you know, the 1D will only accept XD cards and have a body made of paper mache.

 

[miloblithe]

The most "advanced" difference, IMHO? Integrated Speedlite capability. That's it. All I'm seeing between the 2.

Sure, the 60D has a few extra hardware buttons and another LCD at the top. But, coming from a professional, the body can have as many conveniences as Canon wants it to, but at the end of the day, it's still a plastic housing without any mention of weather-sealing (granted Canon never mentions it on xxD products, but the mag-bodieed 50 and 40 did have some. mag bodied. mag)

You missed one of the biggest differences. The Rebel series has a pentamirror viewfinder, which produces a 95% view at .87x magnification. The 60D uses a pentaprism that produces a 96% view at .95x magnification. The 7D takes it a step farther to 100% view at 1.0x magnification. These are big differences, and a typical mark between cheaper and more expensive cameras.

Also for your on paper comparisons, the Rebel does 3.7 fps to the 60D's 5.3 and has a maximum shutter speed of 1/4000 sec to the 60D's 1/8000. Again, these are typical differentiators between entry- and mid-level cameras.

 

[ProwlingTiger]

You neglected to mention that the 7D also shares all of these features. The 60D is, with its price and specs, positioned between the 550D and the 7D. I don't know why you would expect it to be somehow better than the 7D.

Apparently you're not familiar with all the prior xxD models. I'd link you to Wikipedia if I thought you'd read it, but seeing how you've neglected to read this several times: Mag body, CF cards...etc...

Your main problem seems to be with the name. If Canon had decided to go with "Super Awesome Rebel" rather than abusing the apparently sacrosanct x0D name, it probably would have upset fewer people.

Yes. The 60D does not deserve the xxD moniker. Thank you.

You're considering switching because a new mid-level model isn't as good as the rumored specs of its Nikon equivalent? Probably a good idea. Next thing you know, the 1D will only accept XD cards and have a body made of paper mache.

Rumored? Bet you those rumors are true. We'll know on Sept. 15, hopefully.

No I'm considering switching because Canon is effing up the product lines that made it Canon. If the 7DII has SD cards and goes plastic body, then yes, it is VERY logical to switch.

Of course this is coming from a professional shooter, I'm sure amateurs don't mind the changes, as they're used to the Rebel.

You missed one of the biggest differences. The Rebel series has a pentamirror viewfinder, which produces a 95% view at .87x magnification. The 60D uses a pentaprism that produces a 96% view at .95x magnification. The 7D takes it a step farther to 100% view at 1.0x magnification. These are big differences, and a typical mark between cheaper and more expensive cameras.

Also for your on paper comparisons, the Rebel does 3.7 fps to the 60D's 5.3 and has a maximum shutter speed of 1/4000 sec to the 60D's 1/8000. Again, these are typical differentiators between entry- and mid-level cameras.

In case you missed it, the xxD line went DOWN in fps. Max shutter speed remained the same. And you get 1% more view at the same magnification.

Now when you factor in all the other downgrades between the 50D and 60D...the 60D is now more of a low mid-range camera.

Lemme put it this way: The gap between the 60D and 7D is now greater than the gap between the 60D and T2i (550D). Previously, the 50D was at a great spot between the 7D and T2i, granted it did need some updates.

 

[miloblithe]

Apparently you're not familiar with all the prior xxD models. I'd link you to Wikipedia if I thought you'd read it, but seeing how you've neglected to read this several times: Mag body, CF cards...etc...

In case you missed it again, another of those defining specs was a pentaprism, which it retains and differentiates it from the Rebel line's pentamirrors.

You may be right that the gap between the $800 T2i and the $1100 60D is closer than the gap between the $1100 60D and $1535 7D. But looking at the prices, what else would you expect?

 

[funkboy]

branding nightmare

Personally, I think that it seems like Canon's marketing (previously the market leader) is being pulled in many different directions by the underdogs (sony, pana, oly) and isn't really sure in which direction to point the proverbial 800lb marketing dept.

I think with this latest move they are at least trying to shore things up a bit by more clearly saying "if it's a single-digit model, it's for pros & other folks looking for pro-grade cameras; if it's not, it's a consumer camera". Now, this will be confusing to the hapless consumer for a while as the previous 50D was pretty close to a "pro" camera, whereas the 60D seems a notch down the "pro" scale. It's also clearly a higher-margin product for Canon than the 50D was, even considering the reduced price.

Frankly, I think the Japanese camera industry would do well to take a look at the marketing changes the Japanese auto industry made in the '80s: Toyota created Lexus & Nissan created Infiniti. We already have "L" branded lenses; would it be so much of a leap to create a "Canon Pro" (and "Nikon Pro" for that matter) body lineup that clearly differentiated the consumer cameras designed by the marketechts from the professional cameras designed by working pros that don't give a toss about face recognition?

That way the marketdroids can continue with their "Kiss the Rebel XR4Ti" theme or whatever they want to call it in whichever market they're trying to hock this year's new feature, and the pros can stick with "EOS Pro" or whatever cameras (provided that Canon actually backs up the pro marketspeak with focus groups consisting exclusively of CPS members). With "L" lenses, apart from a few old dogs you can pretty much just buy whatever you need (& can afford) with the confidence that it will give professionally acceptable results. Why not the same marketing clarity with camera body features?

I suppose Nikon is trying to go this way too by phasing out two-digit body numbers: 1 digit=top-end pro, 3 digits=good enough for a pro, 4 digits=consumer. At least with Nikon ALL their pro-grade cameras (1 digit & 3 digit) have the same level of weathersealing, in-body screwdriver motor, remote speedlite control, good viewfinder, pro AF (AFAIK the AF performance only differs in the power of the AF processor & firmware tweaks; the units are all pretty much the same), etc. Canon would do well to adhere to this model & not leave the pros & camera geeks guessing whether a 5D will stand up to the same abuse as a 1D.

For the record, I'm not just talking about SLRs here. There are so many cameras on the market now that prove that a camera doesn't have to be big to produce professional results. Canon previously had the "Pro" series Powershots, which while having "L" grade glass didn't exactly deliver pro-grade handling & images, even given the pro-grade norm of the day they were released. I think a compact camera with 1-series build quality & 7D grade imaging would sell very well for Canon.

Funnily enough, I think the company that would benefit the most from such a change is Sony. I find it pretty easy to keep track of Canon, Nikon, Pentax, and even Pana & Oly, but Sony has twice as many DSLRs as anybody else & their model numbers just confuse the crap out of me. I know that the 850 & 900 are FF cameras, and the rest is just a mishmash of ambiguous 3-digit numbers that make no sense to me.

 

[El Cabong]

Apparently you're not familiar with all the prior xxD models. I'd link you to Wikipedia if I thought you'd read it, but seeing how you've neglected to read this several times: Mag body, CF cards...etc...

Even if I weren't familiar with the specs of the prior x0D bodies, I'd have picked it up pretty quickly from the numerous whiny posts that don't seem to grasp that a company can reshape/reposition a product line for its financial benefit. (I also tend to use DPReview to compare camera specs, since Wikipedia is, well, Wikipedia.)

At least we can agree that you're hung up on the name. And that you love magnesium. I'm more of a molybdenum guy, myself.

 

[ProwlingTiger]

Even if I weren't familiar with the specs of the prior x0D bodies, I'd have picked it up pretty quickly from the numerous whiny posts that don't seem to grasp that a company can reshape/reposition a product line for its financial benefit. (I also tend to use DPReview to compare camera specs, since Wikipedia is, well, Wikipedia.)

At least we can agree that you're hung up on the name. And that you love magnesium. I'm more of a molybdenum guy, myself.

I don't love magnesium. I prefer it over plastic, but I don't love it. Saying I love it would be putting words into my mouth.

Is it for their financial benefit? Sure. Doesn't mean it can't be a ****move to photographers.

I just went from the 40D to the 7D. If the 60D had been out when I bought my 7D, I wouldn't have wanted to get it. That, is the problem, IMHO. As a member of the xxD series, it should have enticed people to upgrade to it if they are using the xxD series line as well as the Rebel series.

Now, however, Canon has made it in such a way that it's not worth it to upgrade from one xxD to another xxD, but that you must go from xxD straight to the 7D. Which, I suppose isn't 100% bad, because you're getting a much beast-ier camera. The price, however, is drastically more (55.45% going off MSRP of 60D and 7D).

So yes, to Canon, the move would have to make financial sense. Otherwise they wouldn't do it.

In case you missed it again, another of those defining specs was a pentaprism, which it retains and differentiates it from the Rebel line's pentamirrors.

You may be right that the gap between the $800 T2i and the $1100 60D is closer than the gap between the $1100 60D and $1535 7D. But looking at the prices, what else would you expect?

Yeah, it's a plus, but it doesn't directly affect the IQ. How long do you reckon the xxD line keeps the pentaprism? It already shed...well the list is quite long, really.

In the U.S., as far as I'm aware, 7D MSPR is still $1699, body only (but who pays MRSP anyways )

 

[jared_kipe]

Yes, he is. He researches and tests his equipment with scientific precision (he's also a scientist).

Except when he doesn't: he doesn't like that the AF sensors are all concentrated in the middle and don't work well in low light even if you use a bright lens (f/2.8, f/1.4 or f/1.2). We went on a photo trip together hiking up the mountains. When we were hiking down late in the evening, his 5D (coupled to a 70-200 mm f/2.8 IS Mark I on a tripod) had more trouble focussing than my 80D with my ancient 80-200 f/2.8 push-pull Nikkor. Even though this is anecdotal evidence, I have no reason to doubt him.

He also claims the 5D Mark II has some banding issues so he's hoping for a 1Ds next.

Again, I'm not trying to bash Canon, I have my own gripes about my camera. What counts is the photo -- and I like his photos very much.

You seem to be either deliberately missing my point, or are in an argumentative or defensive mood.

What was the point about him researching and testing his equipment scientifically for?
As if.. only scientists can assess the photographic characteristics of a camera and make informed buying/upgrading decisions??
As if.. he didn't adequately test his 5D before buying it and now regrets the decision because of the focusing mechanisms??
As if.. any scientist would reject the 5DmkII as an upgrade for the 5D due to some previously explained preference that the focusing controller would be the only meaningful upgrade - that which is currently missing??

None the less, I maintain that saying you "CANNOT" upgrade because the newer model has the same feature X of your current camera body is not logical sense. The fact is that an "upgrade" is an upgrade if it makes at least one feature "better", EVEN IF, some other features remain unchanged.

At least IMHO, and I do have a degree in Physics and Math, and I actually own a 5DmkII and have never seen any abnormal banding in any of my images always in RAW processed through Lightroom (ACR).

 

[OreoCookie]

Please, there is no reason to get so worked up.

What was the point about him researching and testing his equipment scientifically for?

As if.. only scientists can assess the photographic characteristics of a camera and make informed buying/upgrading decisions??

I've never said such a thing. It was only supposed to give you an idea that he's very thorough, that's all. I don't know why you construe this as an insult

As if.. he didn't adequately test his 5D before buying it and now regrets the decision because of the focusing mechanisms??

When he bought the 5D about half a year or so after it was released (somewhere between 2005 and 2006), it was the best camera in terms of price and performance available. How's that making the wrong decision?

None the less, I maintain that saying you "CANNOT" upgrade because the newer model has the same feature X of your current camera body is not logical sense. The fact is that an "upgrade" is an upgrade if it makes at least one feature "better", EVEN IF, some other features remain unchanged.

You get awfully defensive here for no good reason: I'm just saying that he has no intention of upgrading for the two reasons I've given. It's not my opinion nor is it yours, it's his. I share his opinion on the AF system, though, but regarding any banding problems, I can't say either way.

People have different expectations in an upgrade as their requirements may be different. So different things matter to different people.

 

[funkboy]

As passionate as this 60D discussion is, I'm afraid it doesn't matter very much.

In the "$1000ish and less" SLR market segment, which is by far the largest in terms of number of units, historically Canon cares primarily about two things:

1) getting people to move up to an SLR from a compact (==system adoption & better margins)

2) selling more units than Nikon

The 550D certainly has the first point covered well, and competes nicely against the D3100 as well.

Both companies seem to agree that the cheapest segment will get the least attention from R&D (which seems to be working OK as the consumer in that market pretty much only cares about price).

Which leaves us with the replacement of the 50D & the D90.

Let's back up a bit here... Back in Canon's heyday when the US economy was strong, the yen was weak, & they were pretty much calling the shots, there was the xxxD consumer camera, xxD prosumer, 5D FF prosumer, and the 1D & 1Ds series. Their FF cameras produced tremendously better images than anything Nikon had to offer, and even the APS-C cameras were a step ahead of Nikon regarding IQ.

At the time, Nikon & Canon had always created cameras that slotted well between each other in terms of price. Nikon decided to use this to their advantage to do two things:

- come out with an ultra-cheap entry-level body that would undercut the Rebel & thus attract the lucrative "first-time SLR buyers".

- make their "between Rebel & xxD" camera good enough that anyone looking at a prosumer Canon would look long & hard at the Nikon for a couple hundred bucks less.

The end result of this was that Canon had to shift the positioning of a good chunk of their lineup in order to compete with Nikon directly. While Canon was busy doing that, Nikon released cameras like the D3X & the D90 and made it clear that they were eating Canon's lunch.

The 60D, then, is simply Canon's direct competitor to the D90 replacement, just as the 7D is the direct competitor to the D300. The market segment between the two of them has vanished along with the extra weight & features removed to make the 60D fit the D90's price point. Expect a 1000D replacement at the end of the winter to finish the job.

 

[ProwlingTiger]

The 60D, then, is simply Canon's direct competitor to the D90 replacement.

Good points.

Let's hope Canon knew what the D7000 (?) is going to be like back when they developed the 60D.