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And Apple retailers frequently add discounts to Macs, so I guess it’s a hard comparison to make as well. But the bottom line is, if we look at the actual non-discounted prices for the two, Microsoft’s prices are higher.
Two wrongs don't make a right! I haven't bought a Microsoft device since I could get a very big discount being an MVP a long time ago -- for exactly that reason, they charge way too much, especially for upgrades for sub-par hardware. (CPU-wise)

fwiw, you can replace/upgrade the SSD on these surface devices, so at least they let you do that, unlike Apple.

Surface Laptop Studio (all generations), Surface Pro 9, Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro 8, Surface Pro 7+, Surface Pro X, Surface Laptop Go (all generations), Surface Laptop 3, Surface Laptop 4, Surface Laptop 5, Surface Studio 2+,
 
It seems the base 8GB is being thrashed online. The consensus is a pro device having 8GB in 2023 is upsetting to say the least.
Especially on the pricing at scale for ram modules. It costs apple about $1.90 for a 8GB module and $0.52 cents for a 4GB module.
But somehow it’s hundreds of dollars for those same modules at upgrade.

It’s not about functionality. It’s about being nickeled and dimed for something you’re already paying top market prices for.
 
Two wrongs don't make a right! I haven't bought a Microsoft device since I could get a very big discount being an MVP a long time ago -- for exactly that reason, they charge way too much, especially for upgrades for sub-par hardware. (CPU-wise)

fwiw, you can replace/upgrade the SSD on these surface devices, so at least they let you do that, unlike Apple.

Surface Laptop Studio (all generations), Surface Pro 9, Surface Pro 9 with 5G, Surface Pro 8, Surface Pro 7+, Surface Pro X, Surface Laptop Go (all generations), Surface Laptop 3, Surface Laptop 4, Surface Laptop 5, Surface Studio 2+,
This. At the very least there is room for an expansion slot on every single of of apple desktop and laptop devices.
At the very least ADD a m.2 slot. Heck make it proprietary. There is ZERO reason for lack of expandable storage on these TOP TIER AND PRICED devices.
But they won’t. They will say it voids your warranty. They have iCloud to sell remember.
 
And Apple retailers frequently add discounts to Macs, so I guess it’s a hard comparison to make as well. But the bottom line is, if we look at the actual non-discounted prices for the two, Microsoft’s prices are higher.

As to the distinction of it being a tablet, that’s, again, a point in my favor. There’s no way that the added value of 16GB of RAM on a tablet (which will overheat when trying to perform the same tasks and will have far less battery runtime), is double the value of 16GB of RAM on a Pro laptop that can easily make better use of those 16GB of RAM. And in this case, we actually know for certain that the Surface Pro is just using standard RAM chips. The footprint of a 16GB RAM chip isn’t different from an 8GB one, so arguing that “squeezing those specs into a small form factor is a complement for Microsoft”, doesn’t make much sense, as there’s not really any more “squeezing” involved in sticking a 16GB wafer in instead of an 8GB. You’re correct that it’s a somewhat niche product, but so is the MacBook Pro. The MacBook Air is far more popular, the MacBook Pro is a higher-end device. Most top-of-the-line premium devices are a bit niche. And I saw similarly higher or equal RAM upgrade pricing with Microsoft’s Surface Studio Laptop as well, not double, but at least equal, and generally higher.

At the end of the day, you could accept that Microsoft does, in fact, charge more for RAM upgrades, and at the same time argue that Apple is charging too much as well. But pretending Microsoft isn’t charging more really isn’t an option, the hard evidence shows Microsoft is, in fact, charging more, it’s not a very disputable case. Personally, I think the M3 MacBook Pro is a great value even with a $200 upgrade, so I don’t really have any problem with their RAM pricing tier. Others disagree, and I respect that, but I do think it’s fair to point out that some are asking an even higher price for the same thing, and pointing out that other competitors charge a similar price as well.
Discounts offered on Apple products are much less than what is typically offered on Windows laptops, even on Microsoft's own website as we speak. You're being deliberately obtuse with Microsoft's specific configurations and pricing so let's leave that aside.

Finding rare exceptions of upgrades that provide poor relative value doesn't change what Apple is offering with the Macbook Pro (or the rest of the Mac lineup for that matter). I don't see how me recognizing some very niche Surface devices or upgrades as sometimes overpriced really changes this discussion at all, because the broader pattern in the rest of the market is pretty clear.

There are two points I have about RAM:
1) Generally speaking ensuring you have enough for your needs is one of the best and cheapest way to maintain computing performance. RAM is very cheap and Apple is charging many many times their cost to upgrade RAM. No one is expecting upgrades at cost, but I'm clearly not the only one who is perturbed by Apple's value proposition in this regard.
2) The Macbook Pro is generally expected to do more demanding computing tasks than a Macbook Air or a tablet. This requires more RAM. Pairing an activley cooled M3 with 8GB of RAM is kind of a waste of computing power. I understand some people want a Macbook Pro chassis to do basic tasks, but 16GB can often help with that as well. And most power users with demanding workflows would upgrade from that anyway. At $1600 I would certainly expect 16GB to be included, even if I only browsed the internet and checked email. I can't think of any any comparable devices that start at $1600 with only 8GB of RAM.
 
No 1600 dollar laptop with 8 GB RAM is a great value compared to anything
What you did was quote mine. I said 'in comparison to the 15 Air' which changes the dynamics of this. Were the 14 equipped with 16 GB RAM without price change it wouldn't fit in with other computers in the line up. While I agree with your point, you didn't read my comment and get the gist of mine.
 
Well, a 15 Air gets you

  • fanless
This actually is a disadvantage as the 14 pro can operate silently when not doing heavy tasks. Active cooling is the major benefit to the pro, as some have reported the Air gets hot and has to throttle its performance. I was aware of the other benefits you mentioned but I simply don't think those can really stack up when you start upgrading the 15 to rival the 14 pro. And while I still think 16 GB RAM should be standard at this price point, it really does fit with the rest of the Apple laptops as-is.
 
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How long do people think it will be until Apple increases the base RAM from 8GB? I'm particularly interested to hear from those who are content with 8GB.

Personally, I had thought that the standard M3 chips would be increased to 12GB, and I’m now expecting that to happen when the M4 is launched.
 
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I recently went onto Apple's site and configured a potential 15 inch air with specs as I think are minimally acceptable to a pro user and noticed that it's really only $100 USD less than the 14 pro after upgrading to 16 GB.

I actually find myself realizing now that the 14 is a great value compared to the 15 for only a $100 difference in models. A pro with 16 GB without price increase would effectively neuter sales for the 15 Air.

So all things considered... this low-end pro may actually be a greater value than originally thought.

View attachment 2311725
I actually did a comparison chart:
1699907124904.png
 
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An 8GB equipped model is not intended for running those applications. It's not a fair test to ask a base model, I don't care that it has a new chip, to be running Final Cut Pro and Photoshop and Lightroom and Blender. An 8GB model is not expected to run these sort of things, and any reasonable person who does want to run those things, will get a 16GB or better model. So it's unfortunate that this chip is being used in a so called Pro model, but this is what they are testing. A 8GB MacBook Air would be more appropriate for low end tasks, but people like to test whatever is new. But at the moment, MacBook Air's still have the M2 chip.
 
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How long do people think it will be until Apple increases the base RAM from 8GB?
Probably in 2024 the base RAM will increase to 12GB. It will cost only a couple of dollars and will get everyone off their back for a few more years.
 
Probably in 2024 the base RAM will increase to 12GB. It will cost only a couple of dollars and will get everyone off their back for a few more years.
I think that's one of the big points now. It'd probably cost them less than $10 per device to make the minimum for MacBook PRO's 16GB (keep 8GB for the Air, that's fine).

Heck, I've opened spreadsheets that need more than 8GB of RAM.
 
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DO NOT BUY a machine with 8 gb.
DO NOT LET YOUR FRIENDS BUY a machine with 8 gb.

In 2023, 8 gb is a reasonable amount of memory FOR A PHONE.

Unfortunately, many people will buy 8 gb machines because that's what's available in the store.
It's really sad -- the problem could have been avoided so easily.
The irony of this is that I've been saying the exact same thing. I told a friend not to get the 8GB machine because it's basically an iPhone in the form of a laptop. At least, get the 16GB Ram or more model.
 
It's not just application memory requirement creep. Even with current apps, you will be hitting the swap on the SSD and prematurely wearing out the device.
Yeah, apps will be using/demanding more, as most people have 16GB or more of RAM and that will be even more true. And the OS itself consumes a considerable chunk of that 8GB. Between the OS eating a lot and the graphics doing so as well, going to 16GB will actually net you triple as much memory available as you had at 8GB, not just double.
 
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The 8GB RAM configuration is not as fast as the 16GB configuration?? I am shocked, SHOCKED!!
With all hardware the same this just proves they under-equipped the base model, crippling its ability to even make use of the same hardware as 16GB model would handle just fine. It would be like buying a base model car that had a governor on it, limiting it to 50 MPH and the next model up has no such governor and can hit the actual top speed the car and engine are capable of.
 
How long do people think it will be until Apple increases the base RAM from 8GB? I'm particularly interested to hear from those who are content with 8GB.

Personally, I had thought that the standard M3 chips would be increased to 12GB, and I’m now expecting that to happen when the M4 is launched.

I'm one of the ones defending that 8GB is a reasonable configuration for some. I have always purchased 16/32 for myself. I spend some time in Lightroom and Photoshop and in those tools, RAM is very beneficial. 16GB could be the base for M4.
 
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