8gb vs 16gb

[smirking]

Yea but in 95 I could open my Mac and drop in more RAM, a CPU upgrade, video adapter, or new drive.
Now we're stuck predicting what our case use will be.

The critical importance of RAM in 95 isn't the same as it is for RAM today. Everyone's looking at current day technology through the lens of the 1990's when being even slightly short on RAM was highly traumatic. Today, very few people in this thread would even notice if we secretly swapped their 16-32GB machines out with an 8GB model.

So much of people's RAM anxiety is an exercise in confirmation bias. They expect it to be slower so they notice every hiccup and every hiccup feels longer. Lots of those blips are software related. They'd happen anyway.

I successfully ran my normal workflow of Windows 10 (Parallels), Capture One Pro, a test webserver, PHPStorm, and a bevy of assorted programs at the same time on an 8GB M1 while my 32GB i7 MBP was getting repairs. I even ran XCode on top of that a few times just to see what would happen.

 

[etaleb]

Can someone quite technical explain what exactly occurs when you run out of RAM? For e.g. let's say I have Safari open with 12 tabs and I'm using 7gb ram system wide. Then I open 8 more tabs which puts me at 8gb ram usage. Does it simply take the first few tabs of the browser and save it to ssd memory or something? When I go back to the first few tabs, will they load much slower because they are loading from ssd memory at this point. Any explanations or analogies would help me - thanks!

Thanks

 

[EugW]

Can someone quite technical explain what exactly occurs when you run out of RAM? For e.g. let's say I have Safari open with 12 tabs and I'm using 7gb ram system wide. Then I open 8 more tabs which puts me at 8gb ram usage. Does it simply take the first few tabs of the browser and save it to ssd memory or something? When I go back to the first few tabs, will they load much slower because they are loading from ssd memory at this point. Any explanations or analogies would help me - thanks!

I'm not a technical person for this stuff but here are my 2¢:

Note that the OS makes use of compressed RAM (since Mavericks or something like that) and also caches applications.

So, in theory, your 8 GB RAM sort of functions like 16 GB RAM since there is a 2:1 memory compression ratio. Also, macOS tends to fill up RAM regardless if it needs to or not. The RAM that is not necessarily needed gets filled up with previously opened applications that are no longer used. That way if they are accessed again, they are immediately available with no delay. However, if macOS determines it needs that memory that is being utilized by cached applications, it can simply empty that cache and use it for what is needed.

So, people who see that 7 GB is used doesn't mean they're nearly out of RAM. You can easily use more than 8 GB and still not be out of RAM on an 8 GB machine.

However, as the needs for more RAM increase, eventually the OS may save some of this to SSD, as swap memory. This is slower and can cause delays, but the good news is that current SSDs are so fast that often it's not really that slow, especially if the amount of swap used isn't that much.

Put it this way:

With my 2014 Core i5 8 GB Mac mini with NVMe SSD, with extended use I'd usually have some swap, but often it was quite small. I wouldn't really notice any delays until I hit over 1-2 GB swap, but when it was less than that, I'd usually not notice it. I'd notice slow downs when the swap got bigger. In my experience, Safari with a bunch of tabs is usually not a problem, but it becomes problematic if you're also running a bunch of other memory hungry applications as well.

On my 2020 M1 16 GB Mac mini, with the same extended use I usually don't have any swap at all, but even the times I do hit the swap I notice it even less, probably because the SSD is so much faster, and the CPU is so much faster too.

 

[thedon1]

I went from a 16gb iMac to an 8gb M1 Mac mini when it launched. The 8gb caused me no issues when it comes to using the web browser, having a lot of tabs open, even doing some programming in VSCode. 4k videos and other media aren't an issue at all either with 8gb of RAM. Where I have had issues is using Xcode. It absolutely crawls on this machine when enabling things like live preview. It's the only thing that's really made me want the extra ram, otherwise everything else has been really performant.

 

[azentropy]

I recently got a M2 Air with 8/512. I considered the future proofing argument, but Amazon had a $220 discount, meaning the choice was $1279 for 8/512 or $1699 for 16/512. For a difference of over $400, I'll take the chance that I might have to upgrade a little sooner.

and right there is the kicker. Retailers that discount typically only carry Apple's "standard" configurations which for the M2 (mini and Air) are 8/256 and 8/512. So it isn't just $200 to go to 16GB, it ends up being $300-$400 more going through Apple for a custom configuration. Really wish Apple would make the step up configuration 16/512 and maybe split the difference ($300 more than than the base instead of $200). Glad to see at least with the mini they have a 16/512 M2 Pro option, it just is a bit more than I wanted to spend for my use case. Have to see if/when the retailers discount it and by home much. I see Costco has it listed for $1249.99 so figure in a few months it might go on sale for another $100 or maybe even $150 off.

 

[Open-Source-Norange]

Just gonna drop my two cents here and confirm that 8gb of ram is perfectly fine if you are using your computer for light usage, such as web browsing or office work. One thing to keep in mind though is that your amount of ram DOES coincide to speed of your CPU and processing, so it is important to REALLY make sure it's just light work and stuff. If you wanna branch out more, 16gb would be the better option, but for many people who aren't graphic designers, video editors or coders, they mainly will not need this unless they just have ALL the tabs open at once often.

 

[etaleb]

Alright 8gb it is for me. Would 256gb ssd a limitation in any way? I guess it’s recommended to install apps on the ssd and all media on another HDD connected via usb. The apps I would be installing currently fit fine on my windows 10 HDD. I’m assuming Apple apps are the same or smaller size l? I currently have full ms office, teams, Evernote, notepad ++, VLC media player, qtorrent, Skype and about 5 other small apps

 

[now i see it]

The thing is….
A new M2 Mac Mini with 8GB of RAM will be leagues faster even when swapping memory out continuously than an old Mac mini that was chocked to the gills with RAM and never swapping.

 

[etaleb]

Anybody want to comment if 256gb ssd is sufficient for most users for applicator installs? Of course I’ll use an external HDD for all my media video files memories etc

 

[Heat_Fan89]

Anybody want to comment if 256gb ssd is sufficient for most users for applicator installs? Of course I’ll use an external HDD for all my media video files memories etc

It looks to me like 256GB is enough for you. If you are going external drive, I would choose an external SSD.

 

[Herbert123]

RAM in 95 isn't the same as RAM as it works today. Everyone's looking at current day technology through the lens of the 1990's when being even slightly short on RAM was highly traumatic. Today, very few people in this thread would even notice if we secretly swapped their 16-32GB machines out with an 8GB model.

So much of people's RAM anxiety is an exercise in confirmation bias. They expect it to be slower so they notice every hiccup and every hiccup feels longer. Lots of those blips are software related. They'd happen anyway.

I successfully ran my normal workflow of Windows 10 (Parallels), Capture One Pro, a test webserver, PHPStorm, and a bevy of assorted programs at the same time on an 8GB M1 while my 32GB i7 MBP was getting repairs. I even ran XCode on top of that a few times just to see what would happen.

That's not my experience with the Studio Macs at work at all, though. I tried loading large scenes in Blender that require ~48GB to run well on a Windows machine on the 32GB Studio Mac.

It was a truly horrible experience: while loading was pretty good, otherwise working with the scenes is super slow, long wait times, crashes all over the place... In short: UNUSABLE. It actually felt like the unified memory that serves and shares both GPU and CPU worked against itself in this particular situation.

Relatively spoken an as bad and traumatic experience as all those years ago with Windows 95 running out of memory.

Simply stated: if you need the RAM, you need the RAM. Nothing magic about it.

 

[ahostmadsen]

I cannot say this thread clarified things for me. Sigh. My only conclusion is the Apple should allow upgrade of RAM at least for desktops, since it's nearly impossible to make that decision ahead of time.

Still, I went back and forth over the different arguments with my wife. In the end she decided to go with 16GB, just to avoid any potential problems in the future.

 

[smirking]

That's not my experience with the Studio Macs at work at all, though. I tried loading large scenes in Blender that require ~48GB to run well on a Windows machine on the 32GB Studio Mac.

Simply stated: if you need the RAM, you need the RAM. Nothing magic about it.

Blender's not a typical use. If you'll notice, I didn't say that nobody needs the RAM they think they need. I said most of the people in this thread have a skewed sense of RAM that's fueled by a level of RAM anxiety that's many years out of date.

If you truly need more RAM, you truly need it. YOU, truly need the RAM.

I'm a developer. I've seen and understand benchmark data for how awful it can be when you run out of RAM when you really need it.

The person who's chunking up to 16GB, 24GB, and then 32GB in the name of future proofing and because they think their email took too long to respond with Safari open with 10 tabs... that's RAM anxiety.

Most people aren't buying for Blender.

 

[MOC405]

So non of the new Mac Mini can be upgraded after purchase? I have been considering getting one of the new ones but have been going between the 8gb and 16gb options.

 

[StoneJack]

Anybody want to comment if 256gb ssd is sufficient for most users for applicator installs? Of course I’ll use an external HDD for all my media video files memories etc

Yes. For everything else, just use iCloud or an external drive.

 

[Aerisdies]

I cannot say this thread clarified things for me. Sigh. My only conclusion is the Apple should allow upgrade of RAM at least for desktops, since it's nearly impossible to make that decision ahead of time.

Still, I went back and forth over the different arguments with my wife. In the end she decided to go with 16GB, just to avoid any potential problems in the future.

I'm getting near this dilemma. Probably, tomorrow, once the new Mac Minis get released.

I'm an upcoming first time Mac user and I convinced myself to let go of Windows hardcore gaming because I'm getting old and need to take care of my son. (when I'm playing, I'm always getting out-of-family-focus)

I'm contemplating if 8/256, 16/256, or 16/512 is better for me.
I'm a dev and power user but don't do media things like video editing and such. I think it all comes down to the price.
I would probably get the max configuration if I can but $$$ matters right now. So, a little bit of future proofing will get me to 16/256 instead.

My wife will probably get the 8/256 as she only does light office work. She's not tech-savvy so I'm the first one to dip into the Mac world (we are currently iPhone SE2 users, though).

The only things that make me irk a bit are the SSD wear (and the over-provisioning thingy?).
I'm a bit paranoid, I want to make my first Mac Mini the longest possible mini desktop that I have ever owned.

 

[Basic75]

My M1 Mac mini with 16GB uses well more than 8GB (excluding cached files) just for office use.

 

[ahostmadsen]

From the verge review of the Mac mini
“However, as tempting as the $599 price tag on the entry-level Mini is, we generally recommend getting more than the base 8GB of RAM.”

Apple Mac Mini (2023) review: Mac Studio junior

The Mac Studio is overkill for a lot of people, but this isn’t.

www.theverge.com

 

[EugW]

I'm contemplating if 8/256, 16/256, or 16/512 is better for me.
I'm a dev and power user but don't do media things like video editing and such. I think it all comes down to the price.
I would probably get the max configuration if I can but $$$ matters right now. So, a little bit of future proofing will get me to 16/256 instead.

In your shoes I'd probably still aim for 16/512, but with 16/256 a consideration.

My wife will probably get the 8/256 as she only does light office work. She's not tech-savvy so I'm the first one to dip into the Mac world (we are currently iPhone SE2 users, though).

8/256 sounds fine for her.

The only things that make me irk a bit are the SSD wear (and the over-provisioning thingy?).

Personally I wouldn't worry about the wear. My main concern is macOS these days can stuff a lot of junk into System Files and can keep too many attachments for Messages locally, which can eat up a lot of space unnecessarily. With previous OSes, my wife was fine with 128 GB. With current OSes, 128 GB gets filled up regularly, even though it shouldn't be. You can clean it up manually, but it's a royal pain. So I moved her to 256 GB and her machine is now doing much better. (She has a 2017 MacBook Air, so the SSD is upgradable.)

P.S. I have 16 GB with 1 TB, but I don't need the 1 TB. 16/512 would have been fine, but I found a decent deal on my M1 Mac mini used last year so I bought it. My workload is roughly in between yours and your wife's, mainly business applications with a few things on top of that but nothing hardcore, and I think 16/512 is perfect for that.

 

[Aerisdies]

In your shoes I'd probably still aim for 16/512, but with 16/256 a consideration.


8/256 sounds fine for her.


Personally I wouldn't worry about the wear. My main concern is macOS these days can stuff a lot of junk into System Files and can keep too many attachments for Messages locally, which can eat up a lot of space unnecessarily. With previous OSes, my wife was fine with 128 GB. With current OSes, 128 GB gets filled up regularly, even though it shouldn't be. You can clean it up manually, but it's a royal pain. So I moved her to 256 GB and her machine is now doing much better. (She has a 2017 MacBook Air, so the SSD is upgradable.)

P.S. I have 16 GB with 1 TB, but I don't need the 1 TB. 16/512 would have been fine, but I found a decent deal on my M1 Mac mini used last year so I bought it. My workload is roughly in between yours and your wife's, mainly business applications with a few things on top of that but nothing hardcore, and I think 16/512 is perfect for that.

oh, this is great advice, thanks! Jan 24 just around the corner!

 

[Herbert123]

From the verge review of the Mac mini
“However, as tempting as the $599 price tag on the entry-level Mini is, we generally recommend getting more than the base 8GB of RAM.”

Apple Mac Mini (2023) review: Mac Studio junior

The Mac Studio is overkill for a lot of people, but this isn’t.

www.theverge.com

Hm. Interesting: my oldish AMD 3900X PC still benchmarks faster in Cinebench (18070 points) compared to the Mac Mini M2 Pro (14785 points).
Somehow I expected the Mini M2 Pro to be faster than that. Not even mentioning GPU rendering, of course: that would be an entirely unfair comparison. ;-)

 

[Corefile]

the 8GB is like the 2014 Mac Mini with 4GB and 500 GB spinner drive.

Technically, it will run the OS.
The user experience will be bad (in comparison to the same with 16GB) device spec.

I think you're being a little bit dramatic there. An 8GB machine is fine for most common uses. If you want to do heavy lifting then get a beefier system but 8GB will probably be totally fine for folk who do regular apps and don't run VMs.

 

[Corefile]

My wife will probably get the 8/256 as she only does light office work. She's not tech-savvy so I'm the first one to dip into the Mac world (we are currently iPhone SE2 users, though).

My wife also but I wouldn't recommend it for my mother-in-law who like to do Linux kernel programming in a VM.

 

[Herbert123]

I think you're being a little bit dramatic there. An 8GB machine is fine for most common uses. If you want to do heavy lifting then get a beefier system but 8GB will probably be totally fine for folk who do regular apps and don't run VMs.

The keyword being "probably". The issue at hand is that it is not possible to upgrade the memory if (when!) the user discovers 8GB is not enough.

In the next few years each MacOs release will probably require more memory. New software releases generally do not reduce their memory footprint either. Suppose you'd want to connect a second screen? Being unified memory merely attaching a second screen eats more memory.

In short: 8GB is "probably" fine for lightweight browsing, some light Photoshop editing, and Office work. But it can't be upgraded to 16GB. Ever. And 8GB is "probably" not enough in the upcoming few years.

In my opinion 8GB is not future proof at all. Save those $200 now, and regret it in 2 or 3 years. "Probably" sooner! ;-)

 

[CalMin]

If the $200 extra doesn't bother you then just get it. The truth of it is that for most 'normal' computing tasks and use cases, 8GB is plenty. Now, many folks will tell you that it isn't enough and will cripple the machine etc.. but that simply isn't true.

I have an 8GB M2 Air (with the 'slow' SSD) and an M1Pro with 16GB. There is literally nothing I can get to slow either machine down, unless I open up stupid numbers of documents and apps, just to try and see how far I can get. In normal computing scenarios, both machines remain fast and responsive.

Others will say that you can tell if you need more memory by looking at Activity Monitor, Memory Pressure and swap usage. All I can say is that Activity Monitor seems to have been designed by Apple marketing to create anxiety and push people to configure more RAM. Sure, I can push memory pressure into the yellow or even the red, along with gigabytes of Swap Usage but the machine doesn't feel unresponsive under such conditions, and when when the memory pressure is well into the red, I can still scroll like butter, multitask like a madman, as if nothing is wrong.

--

As much as I defend the 8GB machine, I do realize that future versions of the OS might have higher memory demands. That is several years away, at which point the M2 itself is going to feel long in the tooth. Still, I wish there was a way to upgrade RAM to breathe life into an older machine and I can't forgive or defend Apple for taking that option away. All they have done is created a situation where people buy more RAM than they need because of discussion forums like this.