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Re: Re: Re: Never Before . . .

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Release a Powerbook with a sweet 17" (OK, and 15"...) screen that's faster than any desktop PC. I like it.

Hate to rain on your parade, but let's be realistic; no CPU/chipset is coming to the PowerBooks that'll make them "faster than any desktop PC." That's quite a [miraculous] feat, considering how fast desktop PCs are these days.

If you think such a PowerBook 970 is in the pipeline, I think you'll be sorely disappointed.
 
Re: Re: Re: I gotta hunch...

Originally posted by Snowy_River
I hear this refrain over and over, but I have yet to hear one good argument for it. If Apple can put the 970 into the PowerBooks now, why wouldn't they?


Ummmm ... Because if Apple can put an 970 into a PowerBook, with all the constraints of laptop design, then they can more easily and cheaply put it into a desktop tower, with relatively few design constraints and a far larger power supply.

In other words, the problem is not that Apple wouldn't put it into a laptop before a desktop if it could, but rather that it is a very rare case indeed that a new processor can be shoehorned into a laptop at the same time as or especially before it can be plopped into a desktop.

Personally, I am prepared to be surprised by a dual or near-simultaneous announcements of the 970 in the PowerMac as well as PowerBook lines (that's the kind of theatrics Jobs loves), but I am also prepared for the more likely scenario which is that the processor debut on the towers and migrate to the laptops within the year. I would be astoundingly surprised if the 970 were to be announced and ship in laptops before it shipped in towers.

That having been said, it's a rare thing to have such a huge advance in processor power that a product line has to straddle, and certainly amongst those "in the know" I'd expect drastically reduced G4-based machine sales the instant the first 970 configuration is announced (not moving to buy the 970 machine, but witing until the mid-levels of the lines carry the new processor). The likelihood of simultaneous announcements increases the more Apple believes its customers will see the full-line shift as inevitable, and the more Apple believes its customers will understand the massive leap in performance with the new chip. Remember that not all of Apple's customers are as highly hyper-informed as we try to be :)

Now, order-wise, if Jobs announces 970 laptops, any reasonably informed individual expects that within a week or so the towers will be announced, and so the second announcement is not a surprise (remember, "surprise" is Apple's key strategy to keep sales of previous models going right up to the debut of the new model). If Apple, on the other hand, announces 970 desktops one week, it would still be a huge surprise if Jobs were to announce the laptops the next week. Two major surprises if it is done this order, and hence two lines that don't suffer from pre-announcement sales loss. Of course, given a reality of 970s on the desktop, it is not at all predetermined that the 970 will be hitting the laptops soon, so even a 6-9 month delay before announcing laptops fits the Apple surprise-announcement strategy.

So, if I had to pick, I'd say MacBid is more likely than not about right regarding >6 months between the tower and the laptop. But I'd give the simultaneous "event" announcement at at least 25% possibility, maybe as high as 40%, and laptops-substantially-before-towers announcements at a little under 1%.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Never Before . . .

Originally posted by PaisanoMan
Hate to rain on your parade, but let's be realistic; no CPU/chipset is coming to the PowerBooks that'll make them "faster than any desktop PC." That's quite a [miraculous] feat, considering how fast desktop PCs are these days.

Depends on what you expect from the 970, doesn't it?
 
Current Powermacs

Well we just got 2 new dual 1.42 Ghz powermacs at work, and after setting them up they feel much faster than any other G4s I've used. Of course in any given day I use the first models (400 Mhz, to various versions of the quicksilver, so it is to be expected.) However, this does get me excited because the 970 is supposed to blow away the G4. So any 970 will be nice to me. I won't get one until probably next year after I graduate, so I don't mind, but just please let them come. Also, I swear the dual 1.42 Ghz towers are overclocked. With all the heat sink/fans in them they have to be. The G4 is running out of juice, there has to be a change.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta hunch...

Originally posted by jettredmont
...
Now, order-wise, if Jobs announces 970 laptops, any reasonably informed individual expects that within a week or so the towers will be announced, and so the second announcement is not a surprise (remember, "surprise" is Apple's key strategy to keep sales of previous models going right up to the debut of the new model). If Apple, on the other hand, announces 970 desktops one week, it would still be a huge surprise if Jobs were to announce the laptops the next week.
...

Here's a way to look at the 'surprise' aspect of it. Week one: New PowerBooks - 12" @1GHz; 15" @1GHz and 1.2GHz; 17" @ 1.2GHz. That has a nice wow factor, right? Then, week two: New PowerMacs - Fast 1.8GHz; Faster Dual 2.0GHz; Fastest Dual 2.2GHz. I don't think that the amount that they would be hurt by having the upcoming announcement of the 970 PM not being as much of a surprise would be that significant. And, if they were announcing new PM that blew the doors off the PBs they just announced, as well as anything else on the market (in a comparable price range), I think they'd still count that as a nice surprise factor.

That said, I will grant that I don't think it'll happen that way. I think that there will be a nearly simultaneous release of PMs and PBs based on the 970 (either being announced at the same time, or within a week or two of each other).
 
Re: Re: Re: I gotta hunch...

Originally posted by stompy
"How will they be updated, if not with the 970?"

12" - 1 GHz?
15" Everything that the 17" PB currently has, except the 17" screen?"
17" - No update necessary. Apple has only recently filled backorders.

This would be one of the most lack-luster updates ever. The entire PB line would be at 1GHz? And, given the heat problems that the 17" has had, how on Earth could they successfully upgrade the 12" to 1GHz? And the 15" would likely see little in the way of performance increase, based on comparisons between the 17" and the current 15".

Oh, and I guess the top of the line PM doesn't need to be updated, either, as they've only recently started shipping. Right?

If this is what the PB update looks like for this summer, I'll be rather disappointed.
 
I can t beleiv that, if even intel, which is however the largest chip producer in the world, is not abble to get the 90 nm process done before 1 quater 2004 i just don t see ibm doing that...
 
Originally posted by maradong
I can t beleiv that, if even intel, which is however the largest chip producer in the world, is not abble to get the 90 nm process done before 1 quater 2004 i just don t see ibm doing that...

IBM went SOI and used copper interconnects before Intel. Whats your point? It costs Intel more money to ramp up a new technology, because they have more fabs, and takinga fab down means less production during an upgrade.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: I gotta hunch...

Originally posted by Snowy_River
This would be one of the most lack-luster updates ever.

For an equally lackluster update, we'd have to think back several, uh.... days to the iBook 900 release.
 
Originally posted by maradong
I can t beleiv that, if even intel, which is however the largest chip producer in the world, is not abble to get the 90 nm process done before 1 quater 2004 i just don t see ibm doing that...

IBM's better than Intel, remember? :)

Anyway, it would be kinda stupid for Apple to release Powerbooks first. Apple does weird stuff, but not stupid stuff. They do weird stuff that might succeed, probably won't, but eventually does. Releasing PowerBooks first would be just stupid. A simultaneous announcement, on the other hand...
 
Originally posted by evoluzione
why wouldn't Apple introduce a new processor in the 15" powerbook, i mean, where the heck is it anyways??? The ONLY reason I can think of for not putting it in the 15" first, is sales of the 17", which I consider to be their flagship laptop.

and Apple is innovative, and loves to surprise us, it's the sort of thing they'd do i reckon :)

if it does happen, it won't hurt PM sales, they're Dual Processor, I would never recommend a laptop to the companies I service, for the work they do anyway. It just would not be practical, no PCI slots, AGP etc etc etc etc.


Having said that, I won't believe it 'til i see it ;)

Desktop sales in general are down, with notebooks being the only things getting some action. Laptops are finally at the point where you could conceivably only have a laptop and be fine for pretty much all SOHO use. Gamers get their own super desktops but they are a niche. I don't believe Apple would put out 970 powerbooks without 970 powermacs, but I do think that when the 970s come, the powerbooks will have them as well. Apple knows they will sell through the roof, and they are about making money.
 
Re: I gotta hunch...

Originally posted by Fender2112
I got a hunch that the next thing we see will be the 15" Power Book with the 970.

I think other folks have made the same suggestion. Here are the things that point to this:

1) Steve says this is the year or the notebooks.
1.5) Steve also mentioned something about note books replacing the desktop Mac in the home.
2) We all feel confident that the 970 will be introduced at WWDC. Maybe before.
3) The systems shipping from Taiwan (or whereever it is) are reported to be single processor.
4) The 15" Power Book is overdue for an upgrade.

Summary: The mid level Power Book is due for an upgrade and the 970 is so close we can smell it. If the heat and power issues are resolved, why not introduce the 970 in a Power Book?

I will also suggest that the 15" PB, the mid level PB, will sport a 16:10 screen. This would give Apple's entire Power line, except the 12" PB, a 16:10 screen.

The catch is that once the 970 is released, regardless of the model, Apple will have to quickly upgrade all their products. The G3's and G4's will not sell well once the 970 comes out.

That's all there is and there is no more.

I truly believe this to be true. Last week I attended open house at the college i will be attending next year and they had the 15" powerbook with education discount at $1899. Yes that is right. I was like holy cow that is $900 less than it is at the Apple Store. Every other product that the college was selling was only $50-$100 less than what the Apple Store is selling it for. It is obvious just from the huge discount that 15" powerbook updates are coming very soon, and that the update will be more than just a faster g4 with fw800 and airport extreme. THE 970 IS NEAR. :) :)
 
right on the money

i'm so glad someone is as smart as snowy river :)
think about the varying degree of clockspeeds we've been subjected to. 1GHz, 1.2, 1.3, 1.8, 2.2, etc. any possibility they could all be right . . .
a 1GHz to 1.3 would be a perfect intro of the 970 into the PB line. not nearly as hot as a 1.8+, and a broad change in processor to kick the G4 out of the house for good. the powermacs get the hotter ones, and with dual procs for our same old traditional line-up.
this is of course assuming the Ghz range at the 130nm manufacturing spec orginally rumored earlier, but who knows what june will hold and the possibility of the 90nm in the future . . .
nothing should stop the entire xserve/pb/pm lines from going to the 970 as soon as possible, the price/performance ratio on all of these systems are getting walloped by competitors . . . (intuition, don't ask me for hard numbers :)
cheers
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Yes, hard drives produce more heat, but hard drive design can't be improved like processor design can. You improve what you can.

As for me, I'm starting college next fall, so I hope I can start with a 970-powered Book. If not, I'll be in a bind. Apple hopefully realizes that there are many of us in the same bind.

Bring on the 970Books at WWDC! It's not like it'll be hard...

I am currently in the same boat. I need a laptop for college next year and it would be awesome to show off a brand new apple 970 powerbook to all my classmates. It would be smart of apple to aim for the college students who will be buying laptops shortly after WWDC for fall semester. But if Apple doesn't release the 970 in a laptop, I don't know what I would do, because there is no way I would buy a G4 powerbook now since it will be outdated once the 970 is released. The powerbook 970 would be greatly appreciated this summer. Thanks Apple :)
 
Hell,

I'll be happy if the new PowerMacs don't sound like a Hoover Wind Tunnel :p

I just bought a 1.25 dp..I guess im going to return it..had no idea new ones were right around the corner...darn darn darn
 
"But then you totally kill Powermac sales"

You say this like it would be undesirable from Apple's standpoint. As has been pointed out countless times, laptops carry both higher prices *and* higher margins. In case you're wondering, both of those are *good* for Apple.

That said, I agree that the new processors would appear at best simultaneously in the PMs and the PB, not first in the PB.

TM
 
Gargh! Why does this always happen to me?

Why do I always catch the tail end of product cycles? Last summer I was this [ ] close to buying a 15" powerbook but I wanted something that would last 3 years or more for college and I knew the damn thing was near the end of its cycle, didn't have DDR, etc. I ended up with a PC, but one that would last. And look what happened: in January they DID come out with newer and better powerbooks.

And now I'm unhappy with it and I want to sell it and get a 12" powerbook, the sexiest computer ever, and lo and behold, if I get one this summer, they'll be TOTALLY blown out of the water by the end of the year.

So please tell me, what are the chances of the 970 being in powerbooks this summer?
 
"Oh, and one more thing..."

Really, I think it would be great if the xMacs* (new name for the Power Macs?) would be announced at WWDC and shipping at the MWNY (or whatever it'll be called by then). That would totally revive the sales of Apple's prosumer machines. The 970 xServes** could be announced and shipping at the same dates. That would totally rock!

The PowerBooks don't need to be announced at the same time. It would be absolutely perfect if Steve Jobs would pull one other of those famous "Oh, and one more thing..."-announcements at the end of an Expo-event. Of course, that would be the xBooks (new name for the PowerBooks?) with the 970 processor. Maybe they could even announce both the xBooks and iMacs carrying 970's at the same time?! Now THAT would be a surprise!


:D


[*] The name 'xMac' makes a GREAT name if you pronounce it: 'axeMac'. It would be the Mac that totally and (hopefully) finally axes any PC out there.

[**a] I think it would be great if the whole PowerLine was renamed the xLine. And change the uppercase X to a lowercase one (so the Xserve becomes the xServe) to bring the naming scheme on par with the iLine.

[**b] The name 'xServe' leaves some space for the introduction of an 'iServe', doesn't it? An iMac or Cube like Mac without a display but aggressively priced. Reading all the rumours concerning such Macs makes me think such a thing would sell like really hot sandwiches. Am I wrong?!
 
curious -
You are always going to be on the end of a cycle. No matter when you buy something from Apple, a bigger and better thing is right around the corner.

My advice: buy something that works for you - and then, don't read any Mac gossip!! The rumors of a potential processor which will be released in 8+ months won't bother you anymore... :D
 
If I could guarantee that the 970s would be out tomorrow or in 8 months - which would be better for your situation? Probably neither - because the next best thing is still in the works.
 
Originally posted by Pinto
It's the chips that cause the heat not so much the drive.

In the PowerBook G4 the drive sits under the trackpad and has no heat dissipation to carry the heat anywhere else. Feel the underside of a PBG4 and all the real heat is at the back end where the motherboard is.

The optical drives (CD-ROM/DVD) generate a fair amount of heat as well.;)
 
Five most often cited reasons why we'll see the 970 in a laptop first:

5. We're due for a 15" powerbook update
4. The g4 has reached its limit at 1 ghz
3. The 970 is already cool enough for a laptop
2. 1.2 ghz 970 consumes less heat than a 1.0 ghz G4
1. It's 'the year of the laptop.'


Let me debunk these, point by point:

5. The 17" just started shipping in March. It's the flagship notebook. No way are they going to make it obsolete by introducing a 970-powered 15". And no, they wouldn't update the 17" alongside the 15". The 970 requires a new motherboard and corresponding case. Why would they bother releasing a brand new product in March if they're gonna completely redesign it three months later. No way. Apple is gonna milk at least a year out of the current 17" PB before redesigning it.

4. First of all, the G4 is already past the 1 ghz mark. Some people argue the 1.25 and 1.42 are simply 'overclocks.' That's a matter of semantics. Secondly, the G4 7457 is due out soon, running at 1.3 ghz. It consumes 10 watts at 1 ghz, making a dual-ghz config possible, if unlikely. The 17" seems to be a good candidate for dual CPUs. The 7457 is rumored to go up to 1.8 ghz later this year. So no, the G4 hasn't reached it's limit.

3. The 19 watts at 1.2 ghz is at 1.1v. To go higher, they'd need to up the voltage which in turn will make it too hot for a laptop (they get to 1.8 ghz by upping the voltage to 1.3v which dissipates 43 w). And this is the way it is until they get to .09 process which may not be for a while. So would they introduce the 970 at 1.2 ghz in the PB but not update it for another 8-9 months. Possible, but unlikely. But I doubt Apple will introduce a new chip unless they had some headroom.

2. This is pure rubbish. The 970 consumes 19 watts at 1.2 ghz (1.1 v). The latest 7455 dissipates 15 watts at 1 ghz. I suspect this is what's in the current PBs. So a 1.2 ghz 970 will consume 30% more power--not good for battery life.

1. Pure marketing speak. It doesn't meet diddly squat. Please stop quoting it--it's getting super tiresome. Steve's said a lot of things ("Death to the CRT" and "No more boot to OS 9") that he's gone back on.
 
wow woow slow down please

please someone clear me on that.

* my first speculation was apple announcing the first ppc970 in the 15" powerbooks with the annonuncement of 10.3 which support 64 bits. because steve jobs said it would be the year of the powerbooks but there are no powerbooks which would be labeled as the computer of the "year".

* than this mac bibliote... guys started to send posts about the new release dates of the 970s benchmarks and so but there are unclear parst about that

* apple currently has g3 and g4 computers when we used powermacs and powerbooks g4 we used imacs and ibooks g3 processors. if apple would announce 970s they will still start to sell imacs and ibooks g4 because there are lots of inventory to spend and apple has to draw the line between the entry models and professional models.

* i think there are no lines now because the powerbooks, imacs,powermacs and also emacs are really powerful machines, if apple wants to target the specific users of the market they have to continue selling both g4 and 970s

ohh my god my mind is all f***** up here. i dont even know hot to end this entry. apple really mixed their market strategy now. and if they want to grow they have to show the consumers their moves. i really got tired of seeing myself as a lab mouse.
 
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