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I just bought the Macbook Pro this past thursday and I still have 14 days to exchange it minus the 10% restocking fee. I'm a student and had the 200$ discount. Now my question is... Is it worth it to bring back my current MBP and purchase the new one? It would come up to about 370$ to add.
My main concern is the reliability and the graphics card since I play games.
 
Do you have any numbers/benchmarks/etc to back that up, other than a forum post? I mean obviously there will be virtually no speed differences, but no difference at all? This shows otherwise: http://www.macworld.com/article/132330/2008/03/macbookpro_bench.html

There is pretty much negliciable at all at low resolutions (1440x900 and below), whereas if you go higher than thatt you might notice a little bit of difference in fps. Nothing big, probably 5% difference.

Regarding the article, there are some game engines which require more VRAM if you set the textures to ultra high. If your video card doesn't have enough VRAM then you're screwed. If it does, then great for you. I think there are only 2 engines with this problem...can't quite remember but I believe it might be the Unreal and Quake engine.


Also, a 9600M isn't much more powerful than a 8600M. I would say it's about 10% better. An overclocked 8600M easily beats a stock 9600M though.
 
Do you have any numbers/benchmarks/etc to back that up, other than a forum post? I mean obviously there will be virtually no speed differences, but no difference at all? This shows otherwise: http://www.macworld.com/article/132330/2008/03/macbookpro_bench.html

Help me out here, where in any of those charts does it compare a 8600GT with 256MB of VRAM to one with 512? I see a comparison of MBP models with different processors as well as cards, but nothing just comparing the cards.

Look at: http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-8600M-GT.3986.0.html and scroll down to the 3DMark results. There is no corralation between more memory and better performance past the 256 mark. Any variation you see is from processor or ram, in fact I see cards with 128MB of VRAM performing just as well as the higher end models. I'll admit that saying NO difference is very strong, but there is nothing to support that whatever performance gains you may see isn't from any other part of the system.

I'd venture to say that video card manufacturers expect you to see 512 vs 256 and think double performance. That is exactly what Apple is aiming at. I don't have a benchmark on hand displaying video memory use, but the fact remains: The money Apple wants you to spend to get the better card is absurd. Only purchase the high end model if you require the processor bump.
 
The argument over 256 versus 512 has been going for a while now. I'd like to throw a few extra facets out there, on both sides.

Firstly, now that the MBP uses DDR3 RAM at 1066MHz, there would be minimal difference between the data transfer speeds between the GPU's own RAM, and system RAM. Yes, there will be a large difference in latency, but if the texture files that the GPU are big enough, I doubt whether this would be an issue. Seeing as the 9600 has Turbocache, I'm sure this seriously reduces the benefits of large amounts of VRAM.

Yes, games will not benefit that much from more VRAM, because I imagine they involve rapidly swapping in and out different data about the virtual world as we proceed through the game. Therefore games would be bottlenecked by bandwidth, and how much texture and polygon information can be pumped to and from the VRAM, main system RAM, hard disk, CPU and GPU core. What about CAD programs though? These ultimately do not require rapidly changing texture maps, vertices and shaders, and therefore I would imagine would not require overly large bandwidths. Therefore, they are more likely to be limited by the amount of data about the object that you can fit in the VRAM.

Therefore, if you're a gamer, I don't think you need to worry about the VRAM too much. 256MB is enough for the moment. If you're into some seriously heavy CAD, maybe you want to go for the 512MB version.
 
The argument over 256 versus 512 has been going for a while now. I'd like to throw a few extra facets out there, on both sides.

Firstly, now that the MBP uses DDR3 RAM at 1066MHz, there would be minimal difference between the data transfer speeds between the GPU's own RAM, and system RAM. Yes, there will be a large difference in latency, but if the texture files that the GPU are big enough, I doubt whether this would be an issue. Seeing as the 9600 has Turbocache, I'm sure this seriously reduces the benefits of large amounts of VRAM.

Yes, games will not benefit that much from more VRAM, because I imagine they involve rapidly swapping in and out different data about the virtual world as we proceed through the game. Therefore games would be bottlenecked by bandwidth, and how much texture and polygon information can be pumped to and from the VRAM, main system RAM, hard disk, CPU and GPU core. What about CAD programs though? These ultimately do not require rapidly changing texture maps, vertices and shaders, and therefore I would imagine would not require overly large bandwidths. Therefore, they are more likely to be limited by the amount of data about the object that you can fit in the VRAM.

Therefore, if you're a gamer, I don't think you need to worry about the VRAM too much. 256MB is enough for the moment. If you're into some seriously heavy CAD, maybe you want to go for the 512MB version.

Really excellent post, it seems there are two parallel threads going on so I'm just going to steal some of my own points:

In all honesty, it won't matter in the end. Computing is a game of bottlenecks. Adding the RAM will shift it to a different spot, but in order to really utilize that RAM you'd have to have some pretty powerful application, which in turn will place the bottleneck back on the CPU or RAM, defeating the purpose. A more powerful card would see a much larger gain, while Apple wants you to believe the same for this card. Don't fall for it.

The bottom line: If you are spending the extra purely for the VRAM bump you are wasting your money.


In light of your above information, I would add that doing such heavy lifting on a notebook is a little misguided, desktops can power through that stuff much faster. So while you would be better off with the extra ram for heavy CAD applications, you'd be even better off spending that money on a desktop in the first place! :p
 
I just bought the Macbook Pro this past thursday and I still have 14 days to exchange it minus the 10% restocking fee. I'm a student and had the 200$ discount. Now my question is... Is it worth it to bring back my current MBP and purchase the new one? It would come up to about 370$ to add.
My main concern is the reliability and the graphics card since I play games.

well exchanging and upgrading would address your main concerns, graphics wise the 9600gt is a bit better and the graphics chip in your model(8600gt) has been known to be faulty and could die shortly after the end of your warranty, which would be quite expensive to fix.
 
Macbook Gaming

Nobody's talking about gaming on macbooks. I am very happy that apple decided to up the graphic power of the macbooks. One of my main concern with the first gen macbook is that it can't play many games. I know that the keynote stated that it is 5x faster than the older generation systems, but I want to get some feedbacks of people trying them out. For instance, I am interested to know how well the 9400M GPU works...(Oblivion?, SPORE?)

Anyway...its late now. I am going to head to the apple store after work tomorrow to play around with the new macbooks. (I am probably leaving my credit card home so I won't do anything impulsive)
 
Regarding the 5x faster comments...

If you read very carefully, Apple's 5x faster comment is only used when comparing the previous generation 2.4GHz Macbook with Intel GMA X3100 to the Newest 2.4GHz MacBook with NVIDIA GeForce 9400M. So it is safe to say, this upgrade is truly an upgrade and with better performance.

I'm more skeptical about the performance upgrades with the Macbook Pro...

Apple says it's up to 1.5x faster. However, the comparison is between the New Macbook Pro using the 9400m to the New Macbook Pro using the 9600m (throwing the internal switch, basically).

So, Apple offers us no Macbook Pro comparison in performance or speed to the prior generation as they did with the Macbook. This is my concern. I will wait for Barefeats and the others to hammer out comparisons before I plunk down my cash.

However, the positives for the Macbook Pro is that it is still engineering moving in the right direction. For me personally, it might not be the generation for me to purchase full retail. If all things come out pretty equal in performance - the prior model may be a better purchase dollar for dollar now that their prices will drop.

My 2 cents,
Lonnie
 
Guys, the Geforce 8600GT, 8700GT, 9500GS, 9600GT, 9650GT, and 9700GT

ARE ALL BASICALLY THE SAME PART! They differ a bit in clock speed-that's about it. ALL are low end parts now, though still usable for gaming.

Any big difference you might see between an 8600GT and 9600GT might be because the 8600GT was using slower RAM-the Macbook Pro's version wasn't.

Also both GPUs aren't used at the same time, and even if they weren't, that still wouldn't be anywhere as good as the mobile 9700GTS (which is the first part that's actually better than the 8600GT).

the 8600gt should still be fairly better than the 9400.

It destroys it. EASILY more than twice as powerful. For general desktop usage the integrated 9400 is probably okay though...probably.

Please Help me here!

What do you guys think is faster or know?

the 8600 512mb or the new 9600GT 25mb?

The former for the most part. The GPU is almost the same, and games are starting to actually use more than 256MB. The issue of course is that either way the GPU is low end, and is probably the biggest bottleneck.

Hi all. How much better is the 9600m gt w 512mb over the 8600m gt w 512mb?:confused:

Not much. It'll depend on what speeds Apple has decided on for their new Macbook Pro. It's been ages since I looked at this, but I sort of recall the old 15" MBP clocked it at 475MHz, and the REFERENCE spec for the "new" chip is 600MHz, but Apple underclocked the old one down to 475, so might be underclocking the new one too. Either way, that's basically the extent of the difference.
 
I just bought the Macbook Pro this past thursday and I still have 14 days to exchange it minus the 10% restocking fee. I'm a student and had the 200$ discount. Now my question is... Is it worth it to bring back my current MBP and purchase the new one? It would come up to about 370$ to add.
My main concern is the reliability and the graphics card since I play games.
I'm sure you don't have to pay the restocking fee: just go to the store and tell them that you want to get a new model. You will probably have to pay 100$ price difference, and walk away with a brand new MBP.
If they won't agree(which is not likely to happen), call Customer Support. I had the same story in February and everything went fine.
 
Thanks for the info guys!

Hi all. This is my first post and this thread cleared my last query i.e that of the 8600GT vs 9400M. Thank you all! I am a student moving from PC to Mac and I was considering the new 2.0Ghz Macbook vs old 2.4Ghz MBP. After reading this thread I am in fact going for the old MBP. The new MBP is of 0 use for my needs so I definitely wont spend the extra bucks on it. Following are the advantages of the MBP vs MB, in my opinion:

1. 8600GT dedicated more powerful than 9400M integrated.
2. 2.4Ghz vs 2.0 Ghz
3. 15" vs 13.3"
4. Larger HDD
5. 1440 x 900 instead of 1280 x 800
6. Old-style output for external monitors or projectors (I use projectors freq) so no need to carry a cable around
7. Both FW400 as well as FW800. No need to carry around an adapter.
8. Better speakers
9. HUGE price cut
10. Free Applecare + printer from my University tech store

Although the new Macbook is cheaper by about $150 as compared to the now reduced price of the old MBP, I get almost $300 worth of freebies with the old MBP (applecare + printer) which is another incentive for me.

Please let me know if I'm missing anything or overlooking any important points that might make the new macbook better than the old MBP.

Thanks!
 
Since I already get 5 hours of battery on the 8600M GT… So the 9400M GT will safe battery life, but that means the 9600M GT is very power hungry in comparison and they don't specify the battery life on the 9600M GT either.

They said 4 hours on the 9600M as opposed to 5 on the 9400M. Note that the battery is down from 60 Wh (old MBP) to 50 Wh, so any power saving has already been traded for weight/cost/size.

A video I saw seemed to suggest you had to log out to change the video card.

Surely Snow Leopard will make the use of graphics cards more dynamic and perhaps utilise both cards for a performance boost?
 
WoW!

Help me out here, where in any of those charts does it compare a 8600GT with 256MB of VRAM to one with 512? I see a comparison of MBP models with different processors as well as cards, but nothing just comparing the cards.

Look at: http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-8600M-GT.3986.0.html and scroll down to the 3DMark results. There is no corralation between more memory and better performance past the 256 mark. Any variation you see is from processor or ram, in fact I see cards with 128MB of VRAM performing just as well as the higher end models. I'll admit that saying NO difference is very strong, but there is nothing to support that whatever performance gains you may see isn't from any other part of the system.

I'd venture to say that video card manufacturers expect you to see 512 vs 256 and think double performance. That is exactly what Apple is aiming at. I don't have a benchmark on hand displaying video memory use, but the fact remains: The money Apple wants you to spend to get the better card is absurd. Only purchase the high end model if you require the processor bump.

As someone who was awaiting the new MPBs and landed up going for that lovely aluminum keyboard on the 15" in the refurb store with the "lower" 256MB video card, well all I can say really is thank you!

That's a helleva post. :)
 
I would be interested in seeing what drivers Apple has provided for the MBP under Boot Camp.

Did they include a utility for switching between the 9400 and 9600?
 
Help me out here, where in any of those charts does it compare a 8600GT with 256MB of VRAM to one with 512? I see a comparison of MBP models with different processors as well as cards, but nothing just comparing the cards.

Look at: http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-8600M-GT.3986.0.html and scroll down to the 3DMark results. There is no corralation between more memory and better performance past the 256 mark. Any variation you see is from processor or ram, in fact I see cards with 128MB of VRAM performing just as well as the higher end models. I'll admit that saying NO difference is very strong, but there is nothing to support that whatever performance gains you may see isn't from any other part of the system.

I'd venture to say that video card manufacturers expect you to see 512 vs 256 and think double performance. That is exactly what Apple is aiming at. I don't have a benchmark on hand displaying video memory use, but the fact remains: The money Apple wants you to spend to get the better card is absurd. Only purchase the high end model if you require the processor bump.

The 2.4 Ghz MBP comes with 256 and the 2.5 Ghz comes with 512. I figured you'd know that since you seem to understand so much on the subject. I know there would be very little difference in gaming performance (but I never said there would be in the first place), but there must be some positive effect from it.
 
I would be interested in seeing what drivers Apple has provided for the MBP under Boot Camp.

Did they include a utility for switching between the 9400 and 9600?

I'm not sure where it is posted but Apparently from reported tests, its said that Boot Camp only supports the 9600 "mode". The 9400 is not utilized.

The 2.4 Ghz MBP comes with 256 and the 2.5 Ghz comes with 512. I figured you'd know that since you seem to understand so much on the subject. I know there would be very little difference in gaming performance (but I never said there would be in the first place), but there must be some positive effect from it.

Don't forget the increased processor cache (2.5 offers dbl that of the 2.4) which helps things out.
 
Am I better off keeping this Macbook Pro bought this past Thursday? Or adding the difference and getting the new one?
I'm a student and its my first Mac.
Would like to know honest opinions.
Thank You.
 
I would say that modern graphic cards are going ahead of the actual industry needs: 8600M GT is definitely enough for any game you want to play on your laptop. 1024x768(or sometimes 800x600) resolution looks fine on a 15 inch screen, so you can even max out the details.

except for the screen not being at it's native resolution...
 
THE BAREFEETS BENCHMARKS ARE IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

holy s*** 43%!!! faster than the 8600m gt (3dmark)
 
Those results are seriously very very flawed. There's no way a 9600M GT outperforms a 8600M GT by that much.
 
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