970MP - Still Coming?

[dongmin]

It's true that the dual-core e600 processors look pretty impressive, but by the time they ship Apple should be on the verge of getting 65nm products from IBM. And before the end of this year or certainly by early 2006 dual-core 970MP and single-core 970GX processors should be available in mass quantity from IBM.

Well, IBM is already running 18 -24 months behind schedule, if we consider their original "3.0 ghz by summer 2004" roadmap. So I wouldn't hold my breath for IBM going 65nm anytime soon. At this point, I'm sure IBM would be just happy to get the 90nm working right; I doubt they'd abandon the 90nm process after investing so much in it.

I agree, though, that Apple is ditching Freescale. But the reason for this, I think, is to consolidate development on the G5 architecture. We KNOW that Apple will eventually bring out a G5 PowerBook. Would Apple bring out brand new architecture based on the dual-core e600 simply for the consumer line? No way, that's not how Apple works. Apple develops new tech for their pro systems which trickles down to their consumer line after a year or two of finetuning and reducing costs.

PowerBooks will get a G5 this year. They've maxed out the 7447A--they're already up to a 10x multiplier to squeeze out 1.67 ghz. Apple's next step is either to crank out a new mobo with a 200mhz bus and 7448s or bring out the G5 mobile. My guess is that Apple has been timing things for a G5 release this year.

The iBooks, Minis, and eMacs should get a couple more G4 revisions, possibly utilizing the 7448, in the next 18 months before they too move to the G5 mobile. At that time, Apple should be releasing the next OS X update which should be even more optimized for the G5 architecture.

 

[Roller]

Besides, Steve didn't promise a DC 3 GHz G5. The 3 GHz thing is beating a dead horse, to say the least. I've never seen so much fuss over a 10% clock increase on a CPU. Given all the other factors that impact system performance, who cares.

True, but 3 GHz will be an important milestone from a marketing standpoint.

Personally, though, the reason I'm holding off on a PM isn't that the current high-end clock rate is too low - it's the other stuff (PCI express, etc.) that I'm waiting for.

Much as I'd like to see a WWDC announcement, I'm not expecting anything until Paris expo at the earlest, more likely MW expo in '06.

 

[ShnikeJSB]

It's a race against Dell...

All I know is, in my case, it is a race of Apple against Dell. It's Dell offering a combination of another 34% off and better screens on their XPS Gen 2's, and Apple releasing new PowerBooks. Whichever happens first, I will buy. It had better be soon, either one, as my TiBook is on its last legs. Apparently, Dell will be replacing the crappy WUXGA LG and Samsung LCD's on the Inspiron XPS Gen 2, and then it will be pretty much ideal, except it needs that 34% off coupon again and it makes it cheaper than Apple's PowerBook with much more/better stuff. COME ON APPLE!!! Bring something out worth paying so much for... And soon... -JB

 

[blitzkrieg79]

With all this talk about 970MP, does anyone has any idea what happened to the power5 derivatives? I mean, when the G5 was released for the Mac, it was stated that the 3GHZ mark will be brought by the Power5 derivatives, but eversince summer 2004 I hear a lot less about Power5 and Apple and a bit more about Cell and its effect on Apple which makes me wonder if Apple changed their roadmap and whats up with that president of Sony appearance in January... So far Apple and SOny haven't released any co-product and release of Tiger seems to be a direction towards specialized processor units (core audio/video, h264 encoding/decoding) and away from altivec... I guess no one really knows what is up but I am guessing that life after 970s could be very intriguing (and extremely fast)

 

[fpnc]

With all this talk about 970MP, does anyone has any idea what happened to the power5 derivatives? I mean, when the G5 was released for the Mac, it was stated that the 3GHZ mark will be brought by the Power5 derivatives, but eversince summer 2004 I hear a lot less about Power5 and Apple and a bit more about Cell and its effect on Apple which makes me wonder if Apple changed their roadmap and whats up with that president of Sony appearance in January... So far Apple and SOny haven't released any co-product and release of Tiger seems to be a direction towards specialized processor units (core audio/video, h264 encoding/decoding) and away from altivec... I guess no one really knows what is up but I am guessing that life after 970s could be very intriguing (and extremely fast)

Some seem to believe that the POWER 5 derivative is really IBM's so-called PPE (the PowerPC Processing Element that is apparently going to be used in the Microsoft XBox 2 and Sony's Playstation 3). Microsoft will apparently use a multi-core version of the PPE while Sony will pair one PPE with multiple vector processing "Cells."

 

[manu chao]

I think the word you were looking for was "sarcastic". There's nothing ironic about your statement, to me, at least.

You are right, that was pure sarcasm, sorry and thanks.

 

[eric67]

PMG5 a small revision for brighter future?

have a look at this article

Well, IBM is already running 18 -24 months behind schedule, if we consider their original "3.0 ghz by summer 2004" roadmap. So I wouldn't hold my breath for IBM going 65nm anytime soon. At this point, I'm sure IBM would be just happy to get the 90nm working right; I doubt they'd abandon the 90nm process after investing so much in it.

it is clearly known nowadays, that IBM gave this info to Steve Jobs before facing a major issue with heat release by the PPC970FX. indeed, engraving the 970FX at 90nm did not really solve the problem linked to the stability of many process and components due to the high heat generated by the 970.

I agree, though, that Apple is ditching Freescale. But the reason for this, I think, is to consolidate development on the G5 architecture. We KNOW that Apple will eventually bring out a G5 PowerBook. Would Apple bring out brand new architecture based on the dual-core e600 simply for the consumer line? No way, that's not how Apple works. Apple develops new tech for their pro systems which trickles down to their consumer line after a year or two of finetuning and reducing costs.

you are right regarding the way Apple developp hardwares for Pro and consumer lines. but regarding the PBG5 I tink that you are wrong.
The current prototype of the G5 are simply either too hot, or not allowing more than 1.5hours battery lifespan for a G5 @1.4GHz...
remember that Apple will not double the thickness ofthe current PB line simply to cool down a underclock G5 processor simply to put a G5 in a PB eventhough performance wise it will be lower than any freescale "future" processor.

PowerBooks will get a G5 this year. They've maxed out the 7447A--they're already up to a 10x multiplier to squeeze out 1.67 ghz. Apple's next step is either to crank out a new mobo with a 200mhz bus and 7448s or bring out the G5 mobile. My guess is that Apple has been timing things for a G5 release this year.

again you are right regarding the current 7447A in PB, it is really the top clock which can be achieved. For sure Appel will bring it to 2.0GHz in a Mac mini, but heat management and power consumption are of different importance in a PB and in a Mac mini...
The G5 will not find its way in a PB this year. For sure not. And Apple has almost for sure no reason to do that. If Freescale roadmap is OK, Apple should already have tested since months the 7448 processor (running on a 200MHz bus, allowing DDR400, etc...) and the possibly the e600 in its single and dual core version.
it is now clear that to gain performance, dual core is the best way. For the PB, Apple needs to have a 64bit-compatible processor in a near future, which means either a 970x or a e600single or dual core. We know that the 970Fx or GX will be difficult to be integrated in a notebook (by the way, Intel pentium-m is a P3 derivate). the e600 is probably ready for being integrated into PB for announcement in September... the problem currently is the implementation of Freescale's Rapid IO system by Apple. Indeed, it implies that Apple will have to deal with 2 interfaces in its notebook architecture.
Now do not forget that e600 is already design to work with PCIe, so Apple might be on track to release new PB and new PM in September, both PCIe, both with dual core processor, but not the same processor family.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Some seem to believe that the POWER 5 derivative is really IBM's so-called PPE (the PowerPC Processing Element that is apparently going to be used in the Microsoft XBox 2 and Sony's Playstation 3). Microsoft will apparently use a multi-core version of the PPE while Sony will pair one PPE with multiple vector processing "Cells."

So potentially the Mac version of the "life after 970 processors" will contain a PPE plus multiple Altivec/Altivec2 units I guess, and I heard that the "Cells" are very similar to Altivec, just heavily modernized, so thats what I am wondering about, the relationship between Sony and Apple, I mean if you get deeper in to the reading about the Cell, there are a lot of similarities between the CELL and IBM processors used in Apple computers and add to that the "hiden" featues in Tiger like a support for more then 2 logial processors, all that core audio/video thing, and the YEAR OF HD proclamation along wih appearance of the Sony guy and it seems as if Apple and Sony are on the same boat against the same enemy of Intel/Microsoft lol anyway, as I menioned earlier, 970mp will probably be an impressive processor but I believe that whats after it will be something revolutionary rather then evolutionary, and i am thinking of a mid2006 early 2007 timeframe...

 

[wdlove]

I had heard from a source that Apple tried the G5 in a PowerBook and it caught on fire. As for the Power Mac we can always hope for WWDC.

 

[MikeBike]

Good Idea

Even mac mini and 20" cinema is looking good

I'm thinking of using just this stratagy to get a PowerMac in my house.
First the Mini and the 20" display.
Then next year the Powermac.

 

[MikeBike]

All I know is, in my case, it is a race of Apple against Dell. It's Dell offering a combination of another 34% off and better screens on their XPS Gen 2's, and Apple releasing new PowerBooks. Whichever happens first, I will buy. It had better be soon, either one, as my TiBook is on its last legs. Apparently, Dell will be replacing the crappy WUXGA LG and Samsung LCD's on the Inspiron XPS Gen 2, and then it will be pretty much ideal, except it needs that 34% off coupon again and it makes it cheaper than Apple's PowerBook with much more/better stuff. COME ON APPLE!!! Bring something out worth paying so much for... And soon... -JB

Huh?
Since when can you run OS X on a Dell?
Have you ever used a Powerbook? There's absolutely No Comparison to a Windows Laptop. It's Hardware and Software man. It's worth the money, unless you've got the time to D**K around with Windows and Anti-This that and the other thing.

I can see you might be tempted by Dell Screen prices. But, after what my sister went threw with Dell I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. 13Months old monitor lost it's Green gun, they wouldn't back up their warrenty. But, that's just one of her stories....

 

[MikeBike]

PowerBooks will get a G5 this year. They've maxed out the 7447A--they're already up to a 10x multiplier to squeeze out 1.67 ghz. Apple's next step is either to crank out a new mobo with a 200mhz bus and 7448s or bring out the G5 mobile. My guess is that Apple has been timing things for a G5 release this year.

Powerbooks will Not get a G5 this year, and probably Not a Dual Core either. The next processor is the 7448 with a 1meg L2 cache. That's it. We will all have to deal with that fact. Maybe something nice in 2006. Hopefully, January, but probably March or later, let's not inflate the rumor bubble more the what's possible. That's the hard reality. Of course, I hope Apple proves me wrong.

 

[gangst]

Powerbooks will Not get a G5 this year, and probably Not a Dual Core either. The next processor is the 7448 with a 1meg L2 cache. That's it. We will all have to deal with that fact. Maybe something nice in 2006. Hopefully, January, but probably March or later, let's not inflate the rumor bubble more the what's possible. That's the hard reality. Of course, I hope Apple proves me wrong.

So if we get 7448's what speed do they run at, 2.0ghz+? Do they have an on board RAM controoller?

 

[poundsmack]

speed, i would guess about 1.9 or 2.0 but not much higher if any. as far as onboard ram controller i think so but i dont remember off hand

 

[Kaborka]

This...

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/pa-powerenv/
...is the reason, why there will never be a G5 notebook or a non watercooled G5 >>2.3Ghz.
As you see, even at 1.5Ghz only, the 970FX draws 80W in a worst case scenario. This means that a notebook must be designed to condunct 80W in rare cases. Virtually impossible!
Second - this graph explains, why Apple can't deliver a non-watercooled system >2.3Ghz. Simply because there is not much room for any 970FX build-in powersaving modes to become active close to 2.5Ghz. A 970FX@2.5Ghz consums 100W under full load, no more no less. At this speed, the CPU has reached his absolute thermal end.
These are the consequences of 970FX's Power4 ancestry, which was not designed to be economical.

Kaborka
p.s My guess for the 970MP is 2.0Ghz

 

[~loserman~]

I am confident Steve will be announcing and demoing a top end 3GHZ Quad core machine at WWDC - shipping date is another thing - probably September

Otherwise this latest round of Powermac updates are going to really look mega lame and hit the bottom line hard - Apple cannot have 2.7Ghz single core processors in it's top end machine for the next 12 months while AMD and Intel start pushing Dual cores out the door.

3GHz dual core 970MP's are only found in dreams.
When the dual core 970MP releases it will be at the most 2.2GHz

IBM can't even get the single cores to 3GHZ. What makes anyone even half consider a 3 GHZ dual-core. Remember they are both made in the 90nm process.

 

[271]

Originally Posted by dongmin
PowerBooks will get a G5 this year. They've maxed out the 7447A--they're already up to a 10x multiplier to squeeze out 1.67 ghz. Apple's next step is either to crank out a new mobo with a 200mhz bus and 7448s or bring out the G5 mobile. My guess is that Apple has been timing things for a G5 release this year.

Powerbooks will Not get a G5 this year, and probably Not a Dual Core either. The next processor is the 7448 with a 1meg L2 cache. That's it. We will all have to deal with that fact. Maybe something nice in 2006. Hopefully, January, but probably March or later, let's not inflate the rumor bubble more the what's possible. That's the hard reality. Of course, I hope Apple proves me wrong.

bummer.. 200mhz bus.. eek. i resigned myself to the fact that it would be a long long while until G5 portables were available but i had hopes for 2005 SOMETIME.

i guess i'll have to consult the tao again.. hmm.. it says "the G5 laptops will be out when they are out"

so it goes.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

3GHz dual core 970MP's are only found in dreams.
When the dual core 970MP releases it will be at the most 2.2GHz

IBM can't even get the single cores to 3GHZ. What makes anyone even half consider a 3 GHZ dual-core. Remember they are both made in the 90nm process.

And how do u know it will be at most at 2.2GHZ? and how do u know that the so called 970mp is in fact an evolution of the current power4 derivative or maybe its a power5 derivative, dont forget about the cell and ibms experience gained on that project (it may not be a G5 but it certainly is a chip clocked above 3GHZ) , I think the ibm roadmap was revamped eversince the 2003 (since the power4 derivatives aka 970s are not meeting Apples nor IBMs expectations especially in the mobile department and already newer technology is available such as power5 and cell) and different things are comming based upon different architectures, no one really knows what to expect, if AMD cant release a higher clocked dual core processor it doesnt mean ibm cant either, remember that AMD came to IBM asking for help concerning many technologies such as SSOI and 90nm process and not the other way around...

 

[FlyNolJ]

Possibilities...

The "new" revision is exactly the same as the old Powermacs, with different drives, a little more RAM, and a little faster processor in the same chipset. As we all know, PowerMac sales have been down recently. I think they are overstocked, and Apple touched up their PowerMac a little bit, lowered the prices to get rid of all these OLD machines, making way for a complete revision at WWDC. Please Apple...make me be right.

 

[Hiroshige]

And how do u know it will be at most at 2.2GHZ? and how do u know that the so called 970mp is in fact an evolution of the current power4 derivative or maybe its a power5 derivative,....

Before asking questions like this, I suggest you go to various sites that cover this stuff (thinksecret, the inquirer, the register, tomshardware) and do some research by browsing through the cpu stories for the past year or so.

 

[silvergunuk]

I reckon well get a 2ghz ppc970gx in a powerbook at wwdc with a hi def display.

 

[poundsmack]

@Kaborka

you hit the nail right on the head. it is currently impossible. a 970fx will never be in a laptop (i am so sure) a POWER5 derivitive could be it is possible. but the current G5's have hit there peak and are tapped out. the next power mac's wil have a different chip. they have to, to get any more speed. IBM even said they wernt sure if that chip could possibly go past 2.8 and it hit 2.7 and i think if it could have gone over it would have. after all why else would apple unly get a .2 ghz boost after so long. i think the next revision (probly to far away) is gona be amazing. oh man i hope so

 

[FlyNolJ]

Yay!

@Kaborka

you hit the nail right on the head. it is currently impossible. a 970fx will never be in a laptop (i am so sure) a POWER5 derivitive could be it is possible. but the current G5's have hit there peak and are tapped out. the next power mac's wil have a different chip. they have to, to get any more speed. IBM even said they wernt sure if that chip could possibly go past 2.8 and it hit 2.7 and i think if it could have gone over it would have. after all why else would apple unly get a .2 ghz boost after so long. i think the next revision (probly to far away) is gona be amazing. oh man i hope so

I really hope so. I need a new computer-BAD. I've been chugging along at Dual 450 Mhz for 5 years now. Arranging photos in iPhoto is a weekend long excursion...=( I didn't want to get this Powermac upgrade because it would've only be a 3 year jump, not 5. I'm really hoping my theory plays out for WWDC. I'd wait till Paris though. =)

 

[LunaticRed]

The fastest AMD processor runs at 2.6 Ghz, their fastest dual-core processor runs at 2.2 Ghz.
The fastest Pentium runs at 3.8 Ghz, the fastest dual-core Pentium runs at 3.2 Ghz.
The fastest PPC 970FX runs at 2.7 Ghz, the fastest dual-core PPC 970MP will run at 3 Ghz (because Steve promised 3 Ghz already 22 months ago).

I think the word you were looking for was "sarcastic". There's nothing ironic about your statement

Sorry to pick nits, but he was indeed being ironic. A lot of people confuse irony with sarcasm.

iro·ny
3 a (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result

Sarcastic implies an intentional inflicting of pain by deriding, taunting, or ridiculing, and ironic implies an attempt to be amusing or provocative by saying usually the opposite of what is meant or expected.

I get them mixed up a lot too,
-LR

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Before asking questions like this, I suggest you go to various sites that cover this stuff (thinksecret, the inquirer, the register, tomshardware) and do some research by browsing through the cpu stories for the past year or so.

Actually thats what I did and even more so thats not the problem... Problem is that the so called 970MP hasnt been even announced and people already ASSUME they know everything about it when in fact they don't, and like I said, I don't know either but from the common perspective it is clear that the 970 series has reached its prime and I doubt we will see a whole lot of it in future development, as few people have said it and I agree with it too, WE WILL NEVER SEE A MOBILE G5, heat issues, BUT there is an interesting technology already available, the PPE unit from the Cell and IBM holds that technology, very watt efficient and seems to be more scalable than the current G5, it also seems to be versatile and easily upgradable/downgradable meaning it can go from the laptop to a full powerhouse workstation and it was developed in media content creation in mind and isn't it what Apple is targeting? and those who say that the Cell is for consoles or it requires serious programming so it can take advantage of TIger and Apples hardware, you tend to forget that just as people are easily convinced of availability of 970MPs, the Cell is a broad project, its more than just one chip, its a technology designed to meet individual needs, it is based on one standard and various derivatives will be developed based on individual needs, and I bet that it would take Apple and IBM about 18-24 months to develop an Apple version of it (which would not require any recompliling/maybe some optimizing) and who says that Apple hasnt been working on it for the past 12-18 months considering that G5 has been a disappointment and Apple has something that Sony Toshiba And IBM are very interested in, Mac OS X/Darwin plus a LOT of experience in research and development of the PowerPC (as hard as it may seem to believe but Apple IS involved in the actual hardware/processor research and development with IBM/Motorola)