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A future "just hours (perhaps even minutes) in the future" doesn't make much sense, in relation to the accounts presented in the book.

It makes more sense to me that it's just hours in the future, than to be years in the future yet know one mentions any change in Scrooge's behavior or reputation.

How is it that Scrooge could live on, a new man, yet no one mention the change in his personality or newfound generosity? How could he have lived and done good things, yet no one would go to his funeral and still referred to him as Old Scratch?

Because he didn't live on. No one experienced his transformation. He died in his bed that night.

Tiny Tim is dead in one of the visions outlined in this Stave. It would make no sense whatsoever for the Cratchit family to be acting as the book mentions, if they're in a future only "hours or minutes into the future" ...

I agree. That glimpse is not hours into the future, that vision is at least a year away.

The Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come conveyed him, as before -- though at a different time, he thought: indeed, there seemed no order in these latter visions, save that they were in the Future -- into the resorts of business men, but showed him not himself. Indeed, the Spirit did not stay for anything, but went straight on, as to the end just now desired, until besought by Scrooge to tarry for a moment.
 
It makes more sense to me that it's just hours in the future, than to be years in the future yet know one mentions any change in Scrooge's behavior or reputation.

After experiencing the visions of the future, Scrooge returns to his original time. And actually, in the book people are surprised by Scrooge's apparent change of heart.

How is it that Scrooge could live on, a new man, yet no one mention the change in his personality or newfound generosity? How could he have lived and done good things, yet no one would go to his funeral and still referred to him as Old Scratch?

The guy who stopped by Scrooge's office the day before seeking a contribution for the poor is amazed when Scrooge offers him money the next day. His nephew (and family) is quite surprised when Scrooge shows up to share a meal with them on Christmas. The day after Christmas, Bob Cratchit notices the change and thinks Scrooge is ready to be locked up in the loony bin (see quote below.)

Bob trembled, and got a little nearer to the ruler. He had a momentary idea of knocking Scrooge down with it, holding him, and calling to the people in the court for help and a strait-waistcoat.


Because he didn't live on. No one experienced his transformation. He died in his bed that night.

Err, what? "He didn't live on?" That makes no sense at all.

Here (below) is the final two paragraphs in the book...

Scrooge was better than his word. He did it all, and infinitely more; and to Tiny Tim, who did NOT die, he was a second father. He became as good a friend, as good a master, and as good a man as the good old City knew, or any other good old city, town, or borough in the good old world. Some people laughed to see the alteration in him, but he let them laugh, and little heeded them; for he was wise enough to know that nothing ever happened on this globe, for good, at which some people did not have their fill of laughter in the outset; and, knowing that such as these would be blind anyway, he thought it quite as well that they should wrinkle up their eyes in grins as have the malady in less attractive forms. His own heart laughed: and that was quite enough for him.

He had no further intercourse with Spirits, but lived upon the Total-Abstinence Principle ever afterwards; and it was always said of him that he knew how to keep Christmas well, if any man alive possessed the knowledge. May that be truly said of us, and all of us! And so, as Tiny Tim observed, God bless Us, Every One!
 
After experiencing the visions of the future, Scrooge returns to his original time. And actually, in the book people are surprised by Scrooge's apparent change of heart.

I agree. I have never argued otherwise.

I'm beginning to think you're confused over what my point has been.

I blame my writing. I'm not as clear as I should be.
 
I agree. I have never argued otherwise.

I'm beginning to think you're confused over what my point has been.

I blame my writing. I'm not as clear as I should be.

The spirit shows Scrooge a vision of futures events as they would occur if he did not change his ways. But he does change, and a different future unfolds.

Why does Scrooge need to be dead for this (changed timeline) to occur?
 
Great thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Actually, it will most likely succeed in sending me scurrying back to the original text of 'A Christmas Carol' for further elucidation…….
 
The spirit shows Scrooge a vision of futures events as they would occur if he did not change his ways. But he does change, and a different future unfolds.

Why does Scrooge need to be dead for this (changed timeline) to occur?

I agree with you that the spirit shows Scrooge a vision of futures events as they would occur if he did not change his ways.

What I'm suggesting is that the different future unfolds because he profoundly and sincerely changes heart, and that the spirit is so touched by his transformation that he doesn't take him to his death, but instead gives him a chance to fulfill his promise.

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Great thread. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. Actually, it will most likely succeed in sending me scurrying back to the original text of 'A Christmas Carol' for further elucidation…….

It's a very quick read.
 
I agree with you that the spirit shows Scrooge a vision of futures events as they would occur if he did not change his ways.

What I'm suggesting is that the different future unfolds because he profoundly and sincerely changes heart, and that the spirit is so touched by his transformation that he doesn't take him to his death, but instead gives him a chance to fulfill his promise. ...

Personally, I like that Dicken's Carol can have either a natural or supernatural explanation. Scrooge could have been visited by spirits, or his visions could simply have been a product of brief psychotic disorder triggered by the stress caused from years of overwork, social isolation, poor eating habits, and exposure to the cold and damp of winter. Once the hallucinations began, Scrooge's subconscious took over, walking him through an examination of his past, present, and possible future, ultimately leading him to the realization that he needed a new lease on life. Fear of death seems to be a major theme in Scrooge's hallucinations, perhaps due in part to the anniversary of his business partner's death.
 
Personally, I like that Dicken's Carol can have either a natural or supernatural explanation. Scrooge could have been visited by spirits, or his visions could simply have been a product of brief psychotic disorder triggered by the stress caused from years of overwork, social isolation, poor eating habits, and exposure to the cold and damp of winter. Once the hallucinations began, Scrooge's subconscious took over, walking him through an examination of his past, present, and possible future, ultimately leading him to the realization that he needed a new lease on life. Fear of death seems to be a major theme in Scrooge's hallucinations, perhaps due in part to the anniversary of his business partner's death.

Whether spirits or subconscious/dreams, the end result changed him for the better and because he alone experienced them, they equate to his faith. I'd equate his fear to that of a wasted life more than a fear of punishment although the vision of Marley got his attention. ;)
 
Interesting thread. The evidence presented does not point to his death on that night, but rather a more distant future. What would have caused his death, anyway?

Also, Bill Murray is by far my favorite Scrooge. :D
 
Interesting thread. The evidence presented does not point to his death on that night, but rather a more distant future.

Scrooge, of course, doesn't die that night. He is given a reprieve.

Scrooge was supposed to die that night and here is just some of the evidence foreshadowing that end ...

  • Jacob Marley, his partner, died the same night seven years earlier.
  • Marley tells Scrooge that as a spirit he has been with Scrooge often, but for some reason (Scrooge's imminent death?), he was able to be seen by Scrooge that night.
  • Marley's ghost tells Scrooge that he has a chance to escape that same fate that befell him.

While this foreshadowing alone leads to the fairly obvious conclusion that Scrooge was supposed to die that night, the visions of the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come provide more clues.

If you believe that Scrooge's death was not intended for that night and that he was going to live on anyway, then you have to account for the contrary evidence of the visions. When shown the visions of the future, Scrooge keeps trying to see himself, but does not, as he could during the past and present visions. The reason he can't see himself? He doesn't exist in the future. He is dead.

More compelling evidence against his living beyond that night is the utter lack of any evidence that people saw his changed nature. His laundress described him as, "a wicked old screw," another person called him "Old Scratch," and no one was interested in attending his funeral. All of that is consistent with a reaction to his death that night, before he had any chance to show people his new self. None of that future makes sense if he had even one day to interact with these people in his transformed personality.

It can be a little tricky keeping track of the scenarios, and there has to be a little literary leeway given to make the story compelling and propel the narrative. For instance, if the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come is capable of seeing the future, then why didn't it show Scrooge's impact as a new person? Why did Tiny Tim die in that vision if he didn't actually die so young as prophesized? If the GoCYtC is a conduit to the future, then it is a faulty conduit, because it failed to show Scrooge what was indeed going to transpire.

But the GoCYtC is not a conduit to the future, it's a determinant of the future, and since it had every intention of taking Scrooge to his death, that's why the visions it showed him unfolded as they did. It did not anticipate Scrooge's conversion would be so complete that it would touch it enough to spare his life. But in the story, that's exactly what happened.

What would have caused his death, anyway?

Old age. Illness. One character said, "I thought he'd never die," and another, "he was not only very ill, but dying, then."

Also, Bill Murray is by far my favorite Scrooge.

In an effort to further my look into this subject, I watched this version as well—I remember seeing it years ago.

There are some very clever moments, and much of it's take on the media still rings true today. However, the ending is a complete mess. It appeared they threw away the script and just told Murray to improvise, which leads to a very unsatisfying conclusion to an otherwise decent movie.
 
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Scrooge, of course, doesn't die that night. He is given a reprieve.

Scrooge was supposed to die that night and here is just some of the evidence foreshadowing that end ...

  • Jacob Marley, his partner, died the same night seven years earlier.
  • Marley tells Scrooge that as a spirit he has been with Scrooge often, but for some reason (Scrooge's imminent death?), he was able to be seen by Scrooge that night.
  • Marley's ghost tells Scrooge that he has a chance to escape that same fate that befell him.

...

I got up this morning and while slipping my morning coffee in an attempt to clear out the cobwebs in my brain it occurred to me that the timeline we've been discussing is totally off.

Per the book, near the end of Stave I, here's what we missed...

"You will be haunted," resumed the Ghost, "by Three Spirits."

....

"Without their visits," said the Ghost, "you cannot hope to shun the path I tread. Expect the first to-morrow when the bell tolls One."

...

"Expect the second on the next night at the same hour. The third, upon the next night when the last stroke of Twelve has ceased to vibrate. Look to see me no more; and look that, for your own sake, you remember what has passed between us!"

So, here's the correct timeline:

Scrooge sees...

  • Marley on Christmas Eve
  • The Spirit of Christmas Past on Christmas Day
  • The Spirit of Christmas Present on Boxing Day
  • The Spirit of Christmas Yet to Come on December 27
 
Scrooge, of course, doesn't die that night. He is given a reprieve.

Scrooge was supposed to die that night and here is just some of the evidence foreshadowing that end ...

  • Jacob Marley, his partner, died the same night seven years earlier.
  • Marley tells Scrooge that as a spirit he has been with Scrooge often, but for some reason (Scrooge's imminent death?), he was able to be seen by Scrooge that night.
  • Marley's ghost tells Scrooge that he has a chance to escape that same fate that befell him.


None of these points is even remotely definitive. He also wouldn't have died just because he was a bad person. Marley intervened because he was at the last chance to turn toward a different path. He states so in the very beginning. There is not even remotely a threat of imminent death. Urgency, sure, but nowhere does he state certain death, which would have been a much more effective deterrent and wake up call. Without an actual mention anywhere in the text, I don't think your implications are correct.

That is no light part of my penance,” pursued the Ghost. “I am here to-night to warn you, that you have yet a chance and hope of escaping my fate. A chance and hope of my procuring, Ebenezer.”
“You were always a good friend to me,” said Scrooge. “Thank’ee!”
“You will be haunted,” resumed the Ghost, “by Three Spirits.”
Scrooge’s countenance fell almost as low as the Ghost’s had done.
“Is that the chance and hope you mentioned, Jacob?” he demanded, in a faltering voice.
“It is.”
“I—I think I’d rather not,” said Scrooge.
“Without their visits,” said the Ghost, “you cannot hope to shun the path I tread. Expect the first to-morrow, when the bell tolls One.”
“Couldn’t I take ’em all at once, and have it over, Jacob?” hinted Scrooge.
“Expect the second on the next night at the same hour. The third upon the next night when the last stroke of Twelve has ceased to vibrate. Look to see me no more; and look that, for your own sake, you remember what has passed between us!”


----------

He's a close second for me.

Mine would be Donald's Uncle.;)
 
So, here's the correct timeline:

Scrooge sees...

  • Marley on Christmas Eve
  • The Spirit of Christmas Past on Christmas Day
  • The Spirit of Christmas Present on Boxing Day
  • The Spirit of Christmas Yet to Come on December 27


Dickens seems to violate his own timeline. Or maybe Marley didn't get the memo ...

"It's Christmas Day!" said Scrooge to himself. "I haven't missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!"
 
Dickens seems to violate his own timeline. Or maybe Marley didn't get the memo ...

Dickens missed nothing. The quote you cited refers to the fact that Scrooge returns to his original timeline. I cited it earlier in the thread.

Carol is about time travel, after all, one of the first books to explore the subject.
 
None of these points is even remotely definitive. He also wouldn't have died just because he was a bad person. Marley intervened because he was at the last chance to turn toward a different path. He states so in the very beginning.

No disagreement there. But changing one's nature so profoundly is not a common occurrence or so easily achieved.

I think it hints to a greatness in Scrooge's character that is hidden up until that point.


There is not even remotely a threat of imminent death.

Except for the dead body on the bed ... and showing him his grave ... and the numerous mentions of his death.

Other than that ... there's no threat at all.

----------

Dickens missed nothing. The quote you cited refers to the fact that Scrooge returns to his original timeline. I cited it earlier in the thread.

Carol is about time travel, after all, one of the first books to explore the subject.

So you'd have Scrooge live through Christmas Day, and Boxing Day and the day after that, yet not experience or remember any of it?

I just take it as literary license.

Little more.
 
As I continue to read through this thread, all I can say is this. Why can't you just enjoy the book (or movie). I think some are over analyzing, getting worried about time lines, time travel. Its a great story, enjoy it for what it is.

I gave my two cents about Scrooge's possible death, some disagreed, others may have agreed. It kind of kills the enjoyment if you have to over think on what's going on.
 
As I continue to read through this thread, all I can say is this. Why can't you just enjoy the book (or movie). I think some are over analyzing, getting worried about time lines, time travel. Its a great story, enjoy it for what it is.

I gave my two cents about Scrooge's possible death, some disagreed, others may have agreed. It kind of kills the enjoyment if you have to over think on what's going on.

Actually, I disagree somewhat. To my mind, this is a fascinating discussion, whereby the tale is being dissected in an original and highly interesting way, revealing hidden possible dimensions.
 
As I continue to read through this thread, all I can say is this. Why can't you just enjoy the book (or movie). I think some are over analyzing, getting worried about time lines, time travel. Its a great story, enjoy it for what it is.

I gave my two cents about Scrooge's possible death, some disagreed, others may have agreed. It kind of kills the enjoyment if you have to over think on what's going on.

I suppose some might say the same thing about a Musicologist, who dissects Beethoven's 5th via an analysis of its harmonic, rhythmic, hierarchical structure, etc.

But then,that's exactly the sort of thing Musicologists do, largely because that adds to their enjoyment of complex musical works ;)
 
As I continue to read through this thread, all I can say is this. Why can't you just enjoy the book (or movie). I think some are over analyzing, getting worried about time lines, time travel. Its a great story, enjoy it for what it is.

I gave my two cents about Scrooge's possible death, some disagreed, others may have agreed. It kind of kills the enjoyment if you have to over think on what's going on.

The most interesting aspect of this topic is that such an obvious plot point has been superseded by a blander, lighter interpretation. How is it that these clear clues are now lost or misinterpreted? I think it says something about society and how we interpret meaning, life and death. That it took me so long to see it shows just how thoroughly we're conditioned to interpret a story (or the world) despite clear clues open and available to us.

That's really the crux of this issue, IMO.

Oh. And if this discussion is killing your enjoyment, then if I were you, I wouldn't take part in it. Life is too short ... one of the themes we all take from the story.
 
Except for the dead body on the bed ... and showing him his grave ... and the numerous mentions of his death.

Other than that ... there's no threat at all.

Yeah, we all die. Can't escape that. What Marley is trying to do is change his future behavior, not kill him that night. Wouldn't be much of an opportunity for good or bad if he dies in a few hours. You keep suggesting that his death would be immediate if he didn't change his way, but have yet to say why he died or what killed him.
 
What Marley is trying to do is change his future behavior, not kill him that night.

I never said anything about Marley trying to kill Scrooge. Marley is a wandering ghost and not in control of his destiny or anyone else's.


You keep suggesting that his death would be immediate if he didn't change his way, but have yet to say why he died or what killed him.

That's not explained in the story.

And I'm trying to stick to what's written, or strongly implied.
 
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