A gamer's lament: Apple please let us game on the Mac!

[LeeW]

how many mac users are actually interested in gaming? 5%, 10%, maybe 20%?

Probably worse than that. How many mac users that use mac exclusively are interested in gaming? 5% would be high in my view. Those that have a specific desire to game have a PC or also have a mac.

Moving forward, if AAA games came to mac the cost is going to be high. That is the cost of a mac capable of gaming at that level. How many with gaming specifically in mind are going to spend the required $3k+ that will be needed in the future for an Apple device that could cope with AAA? Not that many. They will opt for a standard Apple device and a PC which likely cost less combined.

 

[maflynn]

Probably worse than that. How many mac users that use mac exclusively are interested in gaming? 5% would be high in my view. Those that have a specific desire to game have a PC or also have a mac.

Excellent point, I think Mac's "bad for gaming" reputation was partly the cause. I mean if someone really wants a mac but also is a game player, they'll go out and buy a console or a gaming pc to work along side the Mac.

 

[diamond.g]

I think expecting every Mac game to look like Hellblade 2 (Or the UE5 Matrix Demo) is unrealistic. Breath of the Wild is a AAA game. Apple has IP that could be used to make a AAA game (like the Foundation). They could even do a Soccer game based on or in the world of Ted Lasso.

 

[Adarna]

The energy expent on convincing this echo chamber of Mac gaming is such that they could have instead bought a video console or a gaming PC laptop/desktop and be enjoying the gaming for decades ago.

Alas... they want to argue on the internet and see who knows most about industry stats, industry trends and consumer behavior.

 

[MacCheetah3]

If it was so easy why do we not see more mac games now?

If its so easy and they're not doing it, then we have to ask ourselves Why? I'm of the opinion that Mac's small marketshare is a major impediment to game studios. Think about it, if the mac has between 10 and 12% marketshare and of that, how many mac users are actually interested in gaming? 5%, 10%, maybe 20%? Regardless of the effort, it takes a team or multiple teams time and effort to port a game and then there's overhead to support that platform. That costs money and will they get a return on that investment?

Put simply, some studios have committed to porting games despite the difficulty/expense. And some of the big studios already have en Apple development team, even if currently focused on iOS.

One thing you and any other mac people cannot deny - major publishers have largely shown that they are not interested in the mac platform and with the purchase of Blizzard Activision the gaming situation for the mac isn't going to be better but worse.

Microsoft is buying a major AAA publisher, and prior behavior already shows that any new content will in be exclusive to xbox/windows.

I do agree.

Basically, there appears evidence that points the finger at Apple, studios, and even gamers themselves as the problem.

 

[maflynn]

Put simply, some studios have committed to porting games

Which ones (not iOS studios but macOS gaming)?

And some of the big studios already have en Apple development team, even if currently focused on iOS.

Lets be a bit more precise, they have iOS development team to produce iOS games. Again, we're discussing the state of gaming on a Mac. Not the iPhone. You seem to be justifying that some studios are producing games for apple users, so its ok, but those apple users are iOS.

 

[TheFluffyDuck]

Apple doesn't want to put good graphics cards in their machines because they destroy battery life, but the real reason is that they like their tasty margins. And putting adequate GPUs for gaming cuts into that.

 

[JouniS]

I am not sure what else you and others expect Apple to do. They already provide APIs and promote several sessions during WWDC related to game development. Sure, Apple could create more commercials featuring games to help promote.

Apple could be more proactive towards game developers, like Nvidia / AMD / Sony / Microsoft are. They could ask what are the problems with the current hardware / APIs and how that could be fixed, and then listen to the developers and fix the problems. Instead of being secretive, they could tell the developers what kind of hardware / APIs will be released in 2-3 years and provide support for developing for a platform that has not been released yet.

 

[diamond.g]

Apple could be more proactive towards game developers, like Nvidia / AMD / Sony / Microsoft are. They could ask what are the problems with the current hardware / APIs and how that could be fixed, and then listen to the developers and fix the problems. Instead of being secretive, they could tell the developers what kind of hardware / APIs will be released in 2-3 years and provide support for developing for a platform that has not been released yet.

They could do something radical like buy Unity Technologies (they seem to only be worth a couple billion) and make it a first class citizen when it comes to macOS and iOS technologies. They could also become a games publisher for indie studios wanting to use Unity Engine.

As of 2020, Unity-made applications were used by 2 billion monthly active users, with 1.5 million monthly creators

 

[MacCheetah3]

Which ones (not iOS studios but macOS gaming)?

Blizzard and Bungie came to mind immediately. However, the following list reminded me of others, such as Cyan, Aspyr Media, Broderbund, and Big Fish Games:

[URL unfurl=“true"]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_gaming[/URL]

By the way, I was originally referencing the overall industry.

https://www.theverge.com/22883541/god-of-war-pc-port-interview

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/57633/destiny-2-pc-port-bungie/index.html

https://acertainkindofgamer.com/201...ty-x-maximum-damage-ps2-gc-pc-the-not-review/

https://memeburn.com/gearburn/2014/05/the-worst-and-the-best-console-to-pc-ports/

I see that is completely irrelevant to you.

Lets be a bit more precise, they have iOS development team to produce iOS games. Again, we're discussing the state of gaming on a Mac. Not the iPhone. You seem to be justifying that some studios are producing games for apple users, so its ok, but those apple users are iOS.

Yes, not every iOS game is reasonably bound for Mac (e.g., mechanics do not work beyond a touch UI). However, my point is if a studio has an iOS development team, whether in-house or contracted, they have the tools and knowledge to create a Mac version without a lot of investment. Either dual-purpose the team or utilize the current iOS members to efficiently train new hires. Game modifications are subjective, of course, but would probably at least include a few control adjustments and additions. And, as a reminder, Apple has been putting effort into standardizing their frameworks across iOS, iPadOS, and macOS for the past few years — which at least some macOS users have complained about (i.e., macOS having many identical UI/UX elements). Nevertheless, it can be helpful for developers.

iPad and iPhone apps on Apple silicon Macs - WWDC20 - Videos - Apple Developer

Apple silicon Macs can run many iPad and iPhone apps as-is, and these apps will be made available to users on the Mac through the Mac App...

developer.apple.com

Apple could be more proactive towards game developers, like Nvidia / AMD / Sony / Microsoft are. They could ask what are the problems with the current hardware / APIs and how that could be fixed, and then listen to the developers and fix the problems. Instead of being secretive, they could tell the developers what kind of hardware / APIs will be released in 2-3 years and provide support for developing for a platform that has not been released yet.

Maybe Apple could extend the information release a few months before WWDC to their entire developer community rather than just giving an earlier sneak peak to giant studios. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Most companies are very paranoid about IP leaks and such though.

Nonetheless, there are resources/tools, for example:

https://developer.apple.com/videos/all-videos/?q=game

They could do something radical like buy Unity Technologies (they seem to only be worth a couple billion) and make it a first class citizen when it comes to macOS and iOS technologies. They could also become a games publisher for indie studios wanting to use Unity Engine.

I am not opposed to that idea.

 

[Nugat Trailers]

Before I give my thoughts, I'd just like to check.

What are we going by when we refer to AAA title? Do we mean a large title produced by a large development team? A title produced by a well known company?

I know that CoD and Battlefield would be examples, but what about The Sims 4 and Civ 6? Grand Theft Auto 5? Bravely Default 2? Baldur's Gate 3? Farming Simulator 2022? Total War? Microsoft Flight Simulator? NBA 2K22?

I'm genuinely trying to work out what exactly is an AAA title.

 

[Homy]

Phil Schiller's words from the Epic vs. Apple trial, unfortunately:

2015-december-tim-cook-wants-mac-app-store-gaming | DocumentCloud

embed.documentcloud.org

"We and the major game developers have tried high-end gaming on the Mac, like the one this user is referring to, but have failed to generate any sizable business in that genre. The top PC game titles have all had previous versions of hot game titles on the Mac and in the App Store - Command and Conquer. Call of Duty. Tomb Raider. BioShock. Assassins Creed Right there are five of the top ten PC games of 2015. The last was BioShock from Aspyr Media. This past spring made their latest new title available: (Bio Shock Infinite $29.99) on the Mac and in the App Store. It gets very good store reviews but doesn't even chart in the top 200 best paid games on the store. The Sims is the one top 10 PC gaming title that does pretty well on Mac, and that isn't new it always has. We could have a section on the Mac App Store just for The Sims (and similar titles) and at least that could be built into something focused and pretty interesting."

 

[Nugat Trailers]

Phil Schiller's words from the Epic vs. Apple trial, unfortunately:

2015-december-tim-cook-wants-mac-app-store-gaming | DocumentCloud

embed.documentcloud.org

"We and the major game developers have tried high-end gaming on the Mac, like the one this user is referring to, but have failed to generate any sizable business in that genre. The top PC game titles have all had previous versions of hot game titles on the Mac and in the App Store - Command and Conquer. Call of Duty. Tomb Raider. BioShock. Assassins Creed Right there are five of the top ten PC games of 2015. The last was BioShock from Aspyr Media. This past spring made their latest new title available: (Bio Shock Infinite $29.99) on the Mac and in the App Store. It gets very good store reviews but doesn't even chart in the top 200 best paid games on the store. The Sims is the one top 10 PC gaming title that does pretty well on Mac, and that isn't new it always has. We could have a section on the Mac App Store just for The Sims (and similar titles) and at least that could be built into something focused and pretty interesting."

Thing with that is that the low power iGPUs Apple uses don't exactly support running Command and Conquer, Tomb Raider, Bioshock, etc, so if you had a 2015 MacBook, 21 inch iMac, MacBook Air, or 13 inch MBP, you were basically limited to The Sims 4.

For context, the 2015 iMac and Air had a Intel HD Graphics 6000 GPU. The MBP had the Iris 6100. The MacBook had the 5300. The 15 inch MBP had the Iris Pro 5200, but depending on the model could be fitted with an R9 M370X.

 

[diamond.g]

Before I give my thoughts, I'd just like to check.

What are we going by when we refer to AAA title? Do we mean a large title produced by a large development team? A title produced by a well known company?

I know that CoD and Battlefield would be examples, but what about The Sims 4 and Civ 6? Grand Theft Auto 5? Bravely Default 2? Baldur's Gate 3? Farming Simulator 2022? Total War? Microsoft Flight Simulator? NBA 2K22?

I'm genuinely trying to work out what exactly is an AAA title.

Wikipedia has an entry on this.

In the video-game industry, AAA (pronounced and sometimes written Triple-A) is an informal classification used to categorise games produced and distributed by a mid-sized or major publisher, which typically have higher development and marketing budgets than other tiers of games.

Thing with that is that the low power iGPUs Apple uses don't exactly support running Command and Conquer, Tomb Raider, Bioshock, etc, so if you had a 2015 MacBook, 21 inch iMac, MacBook Air, or 13 inch MBP, you were basically limited to The Sims 4.

For context, the 2015 iMac and Air had a Intel HD Graphics 6000 GPU. The MBP had the Iris 6100. The MacBook had the 5300. The 15 inch MBP had the Iris Pro 5200, but depending on the model could be fitted with an R9 M370X.

Eh, there are iGPU's that can run God of War, I wouldn't quite blame the hardware here.

 

[Ethosik]

Wikipedia has an entry on this.


Eh, there are iGPU's that can run God of War, I wouldn't quite blame the hardware here.

Exactly. iGPU can run a lot of games. Medium/low and 720p but it can run a lot.

And let’s not forget that a lot of Windows laptops have the same issue until you get to the $1,800 mark and even then some business class laptops still have iGPUs.

 

[star-affinity]

Wikipedia has an entry on this.


Eh, there are iGPU's that can run God of War, I wouldn't quite blame the hardware here.

I would. Or at least the hardware (mainly GPU) "bang for the buck" ratio.

If Apple would have a desktop machine with a swappable GPU that didn't cost Mac Pro level, I think the amount of people wanting to get a Mac that also has an interest in more "heavy" gaming would be of a much higher amount.

But of course there also has to be games to play on the platform, but if you don't have the hardware in place in the hands of many potential customers I don't think that will ever happen. Got to start with a good base and the thing is – a good gaming computer is also good at other things than gaming.

 

[diamond.g]

I would. Or at least the hardware (mainly GPU) "bang for the buck" ratio.

If Apple would have a desktop machine with a swappable GPU that didn't cost Mac Pro level, I think the amount of people wanting to get a Mac that also has an interest in more "heavy" gaming would be of a much higher amount.

But of course there also has to be games to play on the platform, but if you don't have the hardware in place in the hands of many potential customers I don't think that will ever happen. Got to start with a good base and the thing is – a good gaming computer is also good at other things than gaming.

If you can play GoW on a potato pc there is no reason why we should be blaming hardware for missing games (within reason, lol)

 

[star-affinity]

If you can play GoW on a potato pc there is no reason why we should be blaming hardware for missing games (within reason, lol)

Well, I think there's a big difference between "can run" (i.e. it will launch and play at low frame rates with low graphics settings) and play "enjoyably" with 60 frame per seconds or more and high graphics settings.

 

[lecureuil]

I just installed Steam on my M1 Mac Mini, it's been a while since I last played on steam on Mac...

XCOM 2 with all FX settings runs like a charm

 

[diamond.g]

Well, I think there's a big difference between "can run" (i.e. it will launch and play at low frame rates with low graphics settings) and play "enjoyably" with 60 frame per seconds or more and high graphics settings.

Of course there is, but you do have to start somewhere in these things.

I mean I gripe that Apple doesn't support Hardware RT, I don't do Potato settings on my PC Games, but I see the option of being able to run something in potato mode as a net positive for getting folks whistle wet (and having them go for upgrades down the line).

 

[Ethosik]

Well, I think there's a big difference between "can run" (i.e. it will launch and play at low frame rates with low graphics settings) and play "enjoyably" with 60 frame per seconds or more and high graphics settings.

It really doesn’t matter about the hardware. If companies can make their game run well on a Nintendo Switch(which lets be honest the GPU was outdated when it even launched), they can optimize for macs. It’s all about marketshare. As a game developer myself, that is the only reason that’s preventing me from porting my game project to Mac. And my game can run on a cheap computer from 2013 currently (it performs the same as Factorio and Stardew Valley to name a couple). So hardware isn’t an issue.

 

[Homy]

If you can play GoW on a potato pc there is no reason why we should be blaming hardware for missing games (within reason, lol)

 

[star-affinity]

Exactly. iGPU can run a lot of games. Medium/low and 720p but it can run a lot.

And let’s not forget that a lot of Windows laptops have the same issue until you get to the $1,800 mark and even then some business class laptops still have iGPUs.

One thing that has been a problem historically is that – whatever the reason; be it Apple's OpenGL implementation and/or MacOS graphics drivers, developer doing the Mac version – the same game played on a Mac booted into Windows always has performed so much better.

I've been been able to compare this for many years on the Mac Pro from 2010 that I still have. It has been through quite a few graphics cards both AMD and Nvidia (currently on a RX 5700 XT) and it is clear that many of the ”heavier” games still perform so much better in Windows.

Now, with Metal and the combination of Apple making their own silicon also when it comes to the GPU I think this has a chance to change.

I just installed Steam on my M1 Mac Mini, it's been a while since I last played on steam on Mac...

XCOM 2 with all FX settings runs like a charm

Yes, the graphics capabilities of the M1 is pretty decent, which is really nice – this means more Mac users will have access to better graphics hardware.

Of course there is, but you do have to start somewhere in these things.

I mean I gripe that Apple doesn't support Hardware RT, I don't do Potato settings on my PC Games, but I see the option of being able to run something in potato mode as a net positive for getting folks whistle wet (and having them go for upgrades down the line).

Yeah, it has to start somewhere. And if looking at the new games being released on Steam as a measurement the majority of them also support MacOS nowadays. But these are generally ”smaller” games, not so alled AAA titles – they are mostly Windows only.

It really doesn’t matter about the hardware. If companies can make their game run well on a Nintendo Switch(which lets be honest the GPU was outdated when it even launched), they can optimize for macs. It’s all about marketshare. As a game developer myself, that is the only reason that’s preventing me from porting my game project to Mac. And my game can run on a cheap computer from 2013 currently (it performs the same as Factorio and Stardew Valley to name a couple). So hardware isn’t an issue.

I think this is true now when the focus is on Metal and Apple silicon when it comes to gaming on the Mac. For years Apple had an OpenGL implementation that they didn't seem to touch nor optimize and got stuck at version 4.1.

I understand your marketshare concern. We simply need to get more gaming interested people by Mac computers. I think the way to do that is to have more GPU capable machines that doesn't cost too much and if the graphics card can be modular and swapped out/upgraded I think that would help a lot. If Apple will only offer that on the Mac Pro and at a similar price level the current Pro has it's unlikely we'll see that happen.

We'll see what Apple does.

 

[lecureuil]

it's been a long time since i enjoyed a game on a Mac with nice fx settings without having a huge configuration and noisy fan blowing

 

[star-affinity]

it's been a long time since i enjoyed a game on a Mac with nice fx settings without having a huge configuration and noisy fan blowing

That sounds just like the one Lenovo gaming laptop with GeFore RTX 3070 Mobile graphics I've been trying for a few gaming sessions – the fans go really loud.