A gamer's lament: Apple please let us game on the Mac!

[diamond.g]

Just throwing **** against the wall. I have no idea, but I can’t imagine Apple buying a shitton of companies to be the only big player would go well for them.

Eh, for games it seems to be working for Microsoft/Tencent/Embracer Group

 

[JMacHack]

Eh, for games it seems to be working for Microsoft/Tencent/Embracer Group

Yeah but I don’t think the core demographics hate them as much as Apple.

Then again, gamers are dumb. They’ve proven that they won’t let business practices, price creep, or quality get in the way of playing the latest shiny, so maybe you’re right.

 

[Flint Ironstag]

I don’t believe it. The core gaming audience is actively hostile to Apple, any attempt to change that would be met with severe resistance.

Apple has the resources to engage some talented studios to create AAA Mac / iOS games. They have simply chosen not to. What backlash could there possibly be? If it's a huge hit, people will either migrate buy an Apple product, do without, or wait for a port. Just like we have all these years.

What is your platform of choice for VR gaming?

HP Z820 proxmoxed with MacOS & Win10.
dual 4 core Xeon E5-xxxx v2 3.6?GHz
32GB
3x Vega Frontier edition (16GB)
NvME boot drives
SSD game storage
15k spinners for backups
Vive Pro
Knuckles
Wireless adapter
X56 rhino HOTAS
(eventually need gun stock & steering wheel)

I really don’t see that going over well, but it is theoretically possible. It might run afoul of regulatory bodies too.

Microsoft did exactly this. Halo was originally set to intro on Mac first. I remember playing the demo on Power Mac G5 with liquid cooling and some massive AMD GPU - it was solid. Then MS bought Bungie and axed Mac development. Can and does happen.

 

[JMacHack]

HP Z820 proxmoxed with MacOS & Win10.
dual 4 core Xeon E5-xxxx v2 3.6?GHz
32GB
3x Vega Frontier edition (16GB)
NvME boot drives
SSD game storage
15k spinners for backups
Vive Pro
Knuckles
Wireless adapter
X56 rhino HOTAS
(eventually need gun stock & steering wheel)

Jesus, I think your pc costs more than my car.

Apple has the resources to engage some talented studios to create AAA Mac / iOS games. They have simply chosen not to. What backlash could there possibly be? If it's a huge hit, people will either migrate buy an Apple product, do without, or wait for a port. Just like we have all these years.

I think the best case scenario is that 99.9% of people would just wait for a port or do without.

i.e zero RoI.

Which if the case, why try in the first place?

 

[Flint Ironstag]

@JMacHack it was all assembled prior to the GPU craze, so prices were very reasonable. Just wish more games were multi-GPU aware. Oh well, Vega 16GB drives everything I play at 2k & VR smoothly, with max settings. When next gen cards hit, I'll treat myself to an upgrade.

 

[JMacHack]

@JMacHack it was all assembled prior to the GPU craze, so prices were very reasonable. Just wish more games were multi-GPU aware. Oh well, Vega 16GB drives everything I play at 2k & VR smoothly, with max settings. When next gen cards hit, I'll treat myself to an upgrade.

I have a very cheap car though.

And agreed on the multi-gpu issue. iirc the problem lies with scheduling between gpus, making it better to have one bigg’un than multiple ones.

 

[diamond.g]

I have a very cheap car though.

And agreed on the multi-gpu issue. iirc the problem lies with scheduling between gpus, making it better to have one bigg’un than multiple ones.

Apple must have figured out how to get around it if they are going to do a M1 Max Quad or Dual die.

 

[JMacHack]

Apple must have figured out how to get around it if they are going to do a M1 Max Quad or Dual die.

Spitballing, I’d guess that the cores act as a single unit and not two cpus/gpus with an interconnect. Apple touts the unified memory as a huge deal, so I’d hazard that the Duo or Quad would see one big memory pool, and the cores as one big cpu rather than two/four discrete units.

The achillies heel of multi gpu setups was always the transfer of data between the processors as a bottleneck. SLI bridge was an attempt to fix it, but the AMD solution worked over the PCI bus.

Someone more versed in architecture feel free to correct me, but maybe the problem was that information had to be copied between the vram, adding extra latency between the units, and of course adding complexity with diminishing returns.

Resource allocation would be a nightmare I think, because if one gpu had to finish a task and send the result over to the other before secunda could complete another that would be a huge bottleneck.

I need to learn how the original Voodoo SLI worked and if the NVidia SLI works the same way. I know it rendered every other scan line but I’m curious as to how it knew to allocate resources.

 

[diamond.g]

Spitballing, I’d guess that the cores act as a single unit and not two cpus/gpus with an interconnect. Apple touts the unified memory as a huge deal, so I’d hazard that the Duo or Quad would see one big memory pool, and the cores as one big cpu rather than two/four discrete units.

The achillies heel of multi gpu setups was always the transfer of data between the processors as a bottleneck. SLI bridge was an attempt to fix it, but the AMD solution worked over the PCI bus.

Someone more versed in architecture feel free to correct me, but maybe the problem was that information had to be copied between the vram, adding extra latency between the units, and of course adding complexity with diminishing returns.

Resource allocation would be a nightmare I think, because if one gpu had to finish a task and send the result over to the other before secunda could complete another that would be a huge bottleneck.

I need to learn how the original Voodoo SLI worked and if the NVidia SLI works the same way. I know it rendered every other scan line but I’m curious as to how it knew to allocate resources.

Yeah which die's GPU scheduler wins to tell the other GPU's what to do? Or is Apple going with software scheduler instead of in hardware?

 

[JMacHack]

Yeah which die's GPU scheduler wins to tell the other GPU's what to do? Or is Apple going with software scheduler instead of in hardware?

I got no clue. We’ll have to see when it drops.

 

[maflynn]

Looks like, playing games on Macs will get even harder
Microsoft to Acquire Game Studio Activision Blizzard for $68.7 Billion

If this passes government review, and they behave like the Bethesda purchase, Xbox and Windows will be the winners.

 

[diamond.g]

Looks like, playing games on Macs will get even harder
Microsoft to Acquire Game Studio Activision Blizzard for $68.7 Billion

If this passes government review, and they behave like the Bethesda purchase, Xbox and Windows will be the winners.

My co-worker has asked why it would need to pass government review.

 

[maflynn]

My co-worker has asked why it would need to pass government review.

I think they've bought up so many studios, how many independent studios exist now? MS will have the lionshare of AAA studios under the MSFT banner - will that stifle competition?

 

[maflynn]

Here's D2D's take on gaming on Macs.

I think with the less AAA studios being available only exacerbates the situation, if Apple wanted to get into gaming for Macs. Think about it, Apple tends to avoid product/service sectors where profit margins are slim, or the cost of entry is high.

If Apple were to suddenly pivot and try to make gaming an important feature of Macs, they would either have to create a new division within Apple hiring a bunch of game developers (something that Google and Amazon tried and that hasn't worked out for them), or buy a studio.

There's plenty of small game studios but AAA game studios are getting fewer and fewer. The cost of entry for Apple is going to be exceedingly high and what type of ROI could they be looking at? My uneducated perspective is not much if any. Not when game consoles and gaming PCs are relatively inexpensive and have a huge swath of games to choose from.

 

[diamond.g]

Here's D2D's take on gaming on Macs.

I think with the less AAA studios being available only exacerbates the situation, if Apple wanted to get into gaming for Macs. Think about it, Apple tends to avoid product/service sectors where profit margins are slim, or the cost of entry is high.

If Apple were to suddenly pivot and try to make gaming an important feature of Macs, they would either have to create a new division within Apple hiring a bunch of game developers (something that Google and Amazon tried and that hasn't worked out for them), or buy a studio.

There's plenty of small game studios but AAA game studios are getting fewer and fewer. The cost of entry for Apple is going to be exceedingly high and what type of ROI could they be looking at? My uneducated perspective is not much if any. Not when game consoles and gaming PCs are relatively inexpensive and have a huge swath of games to choose from.

But they are willing to make a car....

 

[maflynn]

But they are willing to make a car....

That's the head scratching thing, they seem to run hot and cold on that. If they stayed dedicated to that, they probably be close to releasing one. I get your point however and of course there's exceptions to the rule, but you have to admit, Apple focuses on underutilized sectors and tries to leverage what they do best.

Also they've been pushing services, and gaming for them on the mac is non-existent. Look at apple arcade, they're not really spending a ton of money on that, but that service is raking in the profits. How could Apple sell a gaming subscription on the Mac without a huge amount of investment, more then what they're putting in for apple tv+ and the return on investments won't be there. Only a small subset of Mac buyers would fit that category, and of them, how many already own a game console?

I personally don't see gaming on a Mac as a focus for apple.

 

[MacCheetah3]

Apple focuses on underutilized sectors and tries to leverage what they do best.

Not the word I would choose, although, I think, we have the same understanding. In general, Apple has been great at noticing innovative products that check all but one or two of the consumer interest and expectation checkboxes. For example, I recall being captivated by the Diamond Rio PMP. It was smaller and lighter than a Sony Walkman or Discman. However, the notable features were ease of playlist creation and editing as well as a little better song navigation compared to a CD player. Unfortunately, the Rio's internal storage capacity was not enough to hold even one typical CD length of songs. A few years later, Apple launches the iPod with 80 times the capacity, enough to store most if not all of your CD collection at the time, plus an even bigger screen and a scroll wheel for not only improved playlist navigation but playback (i.e., 'scrubbing'). Twice the cost? What!? No problem because the iPod was the almost perfect portable music player and now worth the premium -- nonetheless, I did not purchase an iPod until the third-generation. So, back on topic, the question is what is the gaming experience lacking that Apple needs to provide?

Some additional inquiries:

Even though the gaming market revenue is nearly $200 billion USD...

• What is the profit?
— Expenses are not decreasing.
• What is the scope (e.g., games, first-party hardware, third-party hardware)?
-- Beyond the games (including subscription-based services) and excessive PCs, "hardcore" gamers appear to spend a lot on their entire gaming space (e.g., monitors, lighting, furniture).

 

[maflynn]

What is the profit?

That's the assessment of Dave2D. There's not a healthy enough profit margin to justify Apple's entrance into the AAA game market - at least a full on push to get AAA written for macOS, either by buying a studio, or hiring developers.

 

[diamond.g]

All these arguments against Apple getting into the AAA game market are the same ones you can use against Apple building a Car (or getting into Self Driving). Apple isn’t good at being a supplier so where is the profit in making a car?

 

[MacCheetah3]

That's the assessment of Dave2D.

And he does bring up several valid/good points.

There's not a healthy enough profit margin to justify Apple's entrance into the AAA game market - at least a full on push to get AAA written for macOS, either by buying a studio, or hiring developers.

🤔 But why does Apple need to create games (including owning a game development studio)? I think, we’re looking at this from the wrong perspective… Maybe. Live typing my thoughts here. ... Apple didn’t buy or create a music label, they created the iTunes Store (and successfully marketed it). Then came the App Store. Following those was the deep dive into subscription services. Now, TV+, which does muddy the waters a little in this theory. But… Is it a success, at least in Apple guidelines? While I do not believe TV+ being a success would entice Apple to create/buy a game studio, the profitability is no doubt a sway on the consideration of other such endeavors. Anyway… A question to answer is why has Apple Arcade not seen the same success as the iTunes/App Store? Have exclusive/blockbuster titles been enough for other stores/services entice people from the competition?

All these arguments against Apple getting into the AAA game market are the same ones you can use against Apple building a Car (or getting into Self Driving). Apple isn’t good at being a supplier so where is the profit in making a car?

I am still extremely skeptical on precisely how that will shape up as well. Are they really trying to design a car or something in the automotive space? I believe, Apple is experimenting in the auto market, but companies execute a lot of R&D that ends in abandonment.

 

[JouniS]

A question to answer is why has Apple Arcade not seen the same success as the iTunes/App Store? Have exclusive/blockbuster titles been enough for other stores/services entice people from the competition?

There are already good enough online game stores and services, and Apple Arcade is worse than them by design. Apple is trying to sell games as apps that are limited to Apple hardware, while competitors are selling platform-independent content.

 

[maflynn]

But why does Apple need to create games

If they don't, no one else will, pure and simple

Apple didn’t buy or create a music label, they created the iTunes Store

You're right, but they were the first ones to combine a MP3 player and a music store. The situation is completely different with games, Apple can't just roll out an app store and suddenly be considered a major force in gaming, like they did with iTunes. Just look at how many AAA games are available in the MAS compared to Steam or Epic

subscription services. Now,

No question, I'm not down on Apple services, but its an apples and oranges comparison. This thread is about Mac users wanting to play games, particularly AAA game titles. Not apple services, but if you want to compare services, then Microsoft's Game Pass is by far the best option for playing games, given the available games. Not only MSFT's huge game catalog, but also EA's, as they've signed a deal to include EA in the gamepass. I know Apple has a game subscription on iOs, and that's wildly successful, but again this is about computers, not mobile devices.

A question to answer is why has Apple Arcade not seen the same success as the iTunes/App Store? Have exclusive/blockbuster titles been enough for other stores/services entice people from the competition?

Apple Arcade is successful but gaming on mobile devices is completely different then gaming on consoles/computers. I'm of the opinion that gaming on iOS is more leisurely, most people that I know tend to play games to pass time, i.e., waiting for the subway. Most people I know who game on consoles and PCs are doing as a form of recreation. They spend time playing immersive and in-depth games. Many use gaming socially too, friends getting together to play COD or something. I'm not knocking gaming on mobile devices, but you can't compare apple arcade to that with MS' gamepass.

 

[MBAir2010]

Looks like, playing games on Macs will get even harder
Microsoft to Acquire Game Studio Activision Blizzard for $68.7 Billion

If this passes government review, and they behave like the Bethesda purchase, Xbox and Windows will be the winners.

can these game work on both platforms?
from a business point of view, they should
then who I am i kidding
MS Edge is now garbage on a great  computer
as windows on VM need more gigs than a starving comedian with a full tank of gas.
all is not fair with war games!

 

[MacCheetah3]

You're right, but they were the first ones to combine a MP3 player and a music store.

Exactly.

Everyone at Diamond knew the Rio needed to be paired with a matching legal music store to succeed long-term. But with consumers essentially stealing music via the just-launched Napster and other mushrooming peer-to-peer services, the record labels were in no mood to license their libraries to Diamond or any other digital music player company. And Diamond wasn't big enough or powerful enough to convince them otherwise. "It took Steve Jobs to pull that off," Comstock freely admits.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/flashback-1998-compressed-history-digital-music-player

Seeing and delivering that essential missing component is the key, and Apple is yet in a position to be able to (assuming they see the valuable missing piece and create it).

Apple Arcade is successful but gaming on mobile devices is completely different then gaming on consoles/computers. I'm of the opinion that gaming on iOS is more leisurely, most people that I know tend to play games to pass time, i.e., waiting for the subway. Most people I know who game on consoles and PCs are doing as a form of recreation. They spend time playing immersive and in-depth games. Many use gaming socially too, friends getting together to play COD or something. I'm not knocking gaming on mobile devices, but you can't compare apple arcade to that with MS' gamepass.

I agree except with “completely.” For example, Rocket League is a pick-up and play PC and console game. Of course, there are other PNP games, that is just one of the very popular titles.

This thread is about Mac users wanting to play games, particularly AAA game titles. Not apple services, but if you want to compare services, then Microsoft's Game Pass is by far the best option for playing games, given the available games. Not only MSFT's huge game catalog, but also EA's, as they've signed a deal to include EA in the gamepass. I know Apple has a game subscription on iOs, and that's wildly successful, but again this is about computers, not mobile devices.

I am a Game Pass Ultimate (which is the tier including access to the EA Play library) subscriber. And I have stuck with Xbox for franchises such as Halo and Forza. With that said, let’s talk about this continued emphasis on AAA titles. Foremost, every platform has their exclusive few (or more). With the majority of households choosing a single favorite platform, you will always miss out on something. Regarding longstanding popular franchises, players have already picked a platform. So, why worry whether or not the game is coming to/available on macOS? As for future releases… I am not sure what else you and others expect Apple to do. They already provide APIs and promote several sessions during WWDC related to game development. Sure, Apple could create more commercials featuring games to help promote. However, of course, that requires a studio to take the first step and actually commit to developing/porting and supporting a game on macOS. I am not so much as defending Apple rather calling out devs. For example, think back to WWDC keynotes. Big name studios, when given the spotlight and other special treatment, often showcased gimmicky, shiny lame sauce such as Infinity Blade — an Unreal Engine tech demo worth at most 15 minutes of fame. Basically, why should Apple invest more in these lazy Goliaths? Again, it’s not as if Apple has not extracted notable franchises (including but not limited to iOS classics) to Apple Arcade:

Apple Reveals the Most Downloaded iOS Apps and Games of 2021

Along with naming its editorial picks for the top apps and games of 2021, Apple today shared charts for the most downloaded free and paid apps and games in the United States across 2021. The number one most downloaded free iPhone app was TikTok, followed by YouTube, Instagram, Snapchat, and...

www.macrumors.com

(Scroll to bottom)

In conclusion… What is different? Porting to another platform is too big of an investment? Studios have done it plenty of times (e.g., console to PC, PC to console). Furthermore, again, at least some big studios already have published games to the App Store/Apple Arcade (i.e., they have Apple ecosystem development resources available). Not enough gamers err revenue? I feel one intent of this thread is to show their are plenty of gamers ready to play on. No? I just do not see how this problem is primarily on Apple — which I have plenty of complaints about. Conversely, I am not ragging on every game developer. Although, anyone defending Epic is seemingly delusional. In addition to giving a dual middle finger salute and walkout to Apple as well as Mac/iDevice owning gamers err customers when Apple took part in depriving Epic of tearing every last penny from their diehard fans, they decided the Microsoft Store for Windows is not good enough for Epic games. Instead, you need to install Epic’s Game Launcher first. One of those few instances when the Xbox ecosystem is actually more convenient.

Sorry about the weaved in rant.

 

[maflynn]

In conclusion… What is different? Porting to another platform is too big of an investment? Studios have done it plenty of times (e.g., console to PC, PC to console).

Sorry, I really didn't get most of what you posted, you mostly lost me but on the topic of porting an existing game I can provide my opinion on porting.

If it was so easy why do we not see more mac games now?

If its so easy and they're not doing it, then we have to ask ourselves Why? I'm of the opinion that Mac's small marketshare is a major impediment to game studios. Think about it, if the mac has between 10 and 12% marketshare and of that, how many mac users are actually interested in gaming? 5%, 10%, maybe 20%? Regardless of the effort, it takes a team or multiple teams time and effort to port a game and then there's overhead to support that platform. That costs money and will they get a return on that investment?

One thing you and any other mac people cannot deny - major publishers have largely shown that they are not interested in the mac platform and with the purchase of Blizzard Activision the gaming situation for the mac isn't going to be better but worse.

Microsoft is buying a major AAA publisher, and prior behavior already shows that any new content will in be exclusive to xbox/windows.

The video I posted above from Dave2D does a better explanation of why Apple doesn't care about gaming on the Mac and why publishers won't invest.