A LOT of power and still lags?

[WonkyPanda]

People need to start realizing that HDDs are becoming a thing of the past and as our processors become more apt to multi-tasking, the HDDs physical limitations start to show more and more. Pop an SSD in there and I guarantee your qualms with slowness will be a thing of the past.

 

[yusukeaoki]

People need to start realizing that HDDs are becoming a thing of the past and as our processors become more apt to multi-tasking, the HDDs physical limitations start to show more and more. Pop an SSD in there and I guarantee your qualms with slowness will be a thing of the past.

I understand. But as I said previously, I cannot afford a 512GB SSD.
i carry my MBP around as well so I cannot be limited to such a small number of space like 128GB.

Dont really want to carry my external HDD around with me...

 

[Acejam2k]

Yes but more multitasking power.
The only app opened was safari and i already see lag.
I mean my MBP only used 3/16GB and 1~3% of CPU power.
I definitely should not see lag.

You will see lag with a HDD.

Opening applications relies on disk I/O, and for something like Safari, barely stresses your CPU/RAM. It's clear that your issue is a HDD read problem. Download Black Magic Disk Speed test from the Mac App Store or get Xbench and run a disk speed test. Post up your results here.

My guess is that your read speed is around ~70-85 MB/sec.

 

[saberahul]

Was clean install a pain? I never done it before so...
And my external HDD case just died on me so I have to wait a bit to make backup.

Yes... it was a major pain. I had over 250GB of data which I needed to put back and trust me, the entire process was not friendly. If you plan to do a clean install - keep a full day devoted to your computer.
FYI, I was on call with AC when I did this and according to the "genius" you should boot your computer using cmd + R --> go to disk utility --> erase your main partition completely --> exit disk utility --> Restore from backup --> go to sleep for 4 hours (could be much less if you use a faster external HDD, I used USB 2.0 and boy was that a pain). If you have a FW 800 drive, use that over USB. If you have TB and your laptop supports it --> definitely use that (although I doubt anyone has those).

 

[yusukeaoki]

Yes... it was a major pain. I had over 250GB of data which I needed to put back and trust me, the entire process was not friendly. If you plan to do a clean install - keep a full day devoted to your computer.
FYI, I was on call with AC when I did this and according to the "genius" you should boot your computer using cmd + R --> go to disk utility --> erase your main partition completely --> exit disk utility --> Restore from backup --> go to sleep for 4 hours (could be much less if you use a faster external HDD, I used USB 2.0 and boy was that a pain). If you have a FW 800 drive, use that over USB. If you have TB and your laptop supports it --> definitely use that (although I doubt anyone has those).

oh god that seems a pain :O
I still have to wait for my external HDD

 

[yusukeaoki]

You will see lag with a HDD.

Opening applications relies on disk I/O, and for something like Safari, barely stresses your CPU/RAM. It's clear that your issue is a HDD read problem. Download Black Magic Disk Speed test from the Mac App Store or get Xbench and run a disk speed test. Post up your results here.

My guess is that your read speed is around ~70-85 MB/sec.

You were correct. Around 70~80 MBps

 

[WonkyPanda]

I understand. But as I said previously, I cannot afford a 512GB SSD.
i carry my MBP around as well so I cannot be limited to such a small number of space like 128GB.

Dont really want to carry my external HDD around with me...

If that's the case, have you not considered an optibay option? Pop a 256ssd and retain your HDD.

 

[yusukeaoki]

If that's the case, have you not considered an optibay option? Pop a 256ssd and retain your HDD.

I dont want to create a risk of voiding my warranty since I just purchased applecare.
And I use my superdrive quite often.
I either have to wait for SSD price to go down or something that would really make me need of optibay.

Im also worried about optibay having so much problems :/

 

[bill-p]

I'm not sure what kind of lag you are seeing. Are you seeing momentary pauses? Or is it that you do something and it doesn't activate until later?

Or does it mean animations don't feel smooth? Which is it?

If it's a momentary pause or beach ball, then as discussed, they are mostly because you are using an HDD and not an SSD. In some rare cases, it's due to something else, like when you plug your USB flash drive in and your Macbook is scanning it.

If it's that you click a button and it doesn't activate until later, then that's because your CPU is busy doing something else. I have had this happen many times when I tried to switch to another app while applying some actions to a very high resolution picture in Photoshop.

If it's that animations don't feel smooth, then try uninstalling or disabling gfxCardStatus and see if it helps. I personally had this problem when I first got my 15" Pro, and ultimately I lived with no gfxCardStatus and lugging the power adapter along. It isn't that bad.

 

[yusukeaoki]

I'm not sure what kind of lag you are seeing. Are you seeing momentary pauses? Or is it that you do something and it doesn't activate until later?

Or does it mean animations don't feel smooth? Which is it?

If it's a momentary pause or beach ball, then as discussed, they are mostly because you are using an HDD and not an SSD. In some rare cases, it's due to something else, like when you plug your USB flash drive in and your Macbook is scanning it.

If it's that you click a button and it doesn't activate until later, then that's because your CPU is busy doing something else. I have had this happen many times when I tried to switch to another app while applying some actions to a very high resolution picture in Photoshop.

If it's that animations don't feel smooth, then try uninstalling or disabling gfxCardStatus and see if it helps. I personally had this problem when I first got my 15" Pro, and ultimately I lived with no gfxCardStatus and lugging the power adapter along. It isn't that bad.

To be honest, all of them.
Delay in animations such as swipe to switch page.
After my swipe gesture on trackpad, it swipes half way, pauses then switches. It happens once in a while. Not all the time.

Another would be beach ball with applications. Especially when rebooted.
When I open Safari after reboot, it takes like 3 tries to open after force quit.
Then opens but doesnt load the page. So force quit it again then finally works normally.

When dragging files on desktop, it sometimes lags. As in doesnt move for couple seconds then just teleports to where I previously dragged to.

 

[Acejam2k]

You were correct. Around 70~80 MBps
Image

Based off those numbers, the lag is definitely due to your HDD.

Installing an SSD will help, and will create a huge performance improvement in terms of overall usability of OSX and Applications.

 

[saberahul]

Based off those numbers, the lag is definitely due to your HDD.

Installing an SSD will help, and will create a huge performance improvement in terms of overall usability of OSX and Applications.

As I mentioned earlier, I had the exact same problem just recently. For me, the speeds were similar to his and the symptoms too. The problem, in my case, was due to a corrupt settings file which was causing this. I am still not sure what the setting was but I know it was caused after I installed AutoDesk Smoke for Mac OS X on my MBP.
To fix, all I did was a full/clean installation of Lion and restored from a backup prior to installing Smoke. At last, all in end was fine and HDD was acting normal once again.
I feel the OP should attempt this solution because, even though painful, it just may solve the problem and if not then he/she can consult Apple for repairs/advice.

 

[MrNomNoms]

I understand, but it still warns me like when i download a malicious software.
But I will remove this app now thanks

Apple has already included malware detection - best thing to do would be to disable 'Open "Safe" files after downloading' within Safari and you've covered yourself. Only download software from reputable website and you won't have a problem.

 

[yusukeaoki]

Apple has already included malware detection - best thing to do would be to disable 'Open "Safe" files after downloading' within Safari and you've covered yourself. Only download software from reputable website and you won't have a problem.

yea I already have that disabled and application removed.
Thanks!

----------

So... to sum things up here, answer is to get a SSD?

 

[Dorv]

Best thing you're going to be able to do on the quick and cheap is a fresh install of Lion. I don't care what Apple says, neither computer I upgrade from SL to Lion ran well until they were fresh installs.

But everyone is right about an SSD. It'll be the greatest thing you ever do for yourself. I've got the whole Optibay thing working, and haven't had the slightest issue yet.

 

[miniConvert]

An SSD is definitely going to be faster, but it shouldn't be necessary at all. What is being described is far worse than normal performance with a HDD should be.

Definitely perform a clean install of Lion. If possible, back up the things you need manually, rather than using, say, Time Machine or something else, so you can be certain no settings/configurations are carried across.

If problems persist after doing this I'd be straight onto Apple.

 

[alphaod]

I don't believe the lag is caused by the lack of an SSD. All my HDDs based computers have been running fine for ages and still do without an SSD.

Since you upgraded from Snow Leopard to Lion, I would reset the PRAM and then repair permissions via Disk Utility.

If this started happening after you upgraded the RAM, it's possible the new RAM is defective and you should get a RMA for that.

Last resort should be the reinstall the OS (not the first, or second…)


Anyways, SSDs do make computers faster, but they are not solve-all-slowdown parts. If you do want an SSD, consider a cheaper 120GB SSD for your essentials in optibay solution. There is no need for you to get an SSD that's the same capacity of your internal HDD. (I see your concern with warranty, I have taken my MacBook Pro in for repair 2-3x in the shop, they have never given me trouble for my optibay. More than once, they came and asked how well the optibay works, etc. Replacing your optical drive means Apple will not warranty your optibay drive [which Apple didn't sell to you]. If you do not break anything whilst installing your optibay [ie: Use proper tools so you don't strip screws and such] you should be in the clear).

 

[bill-p]

To be honest, all of them.
Delay in animations such as swipe to switch page.
After my swipe gesture on trackpad, it swipes half way, pauses then switches. It happens once in a while. Not all the time.

Another would be beach ball with applications. Especially when rebooted.
When I open Safari after reboot, it takes like 3 tries to open after force quit.
Then opens but doesnt load the page. So force quit it again then finally works normally.

When dragging files on desktop, it sometimes lags. As in doesnt move for couple seconds then just teleports to where I previously dragged to.

Animations wouldn't be smooth on a high resolution screen... especially if you force Intel HD with gfxCardStatus.

Launching application is highly dependent upon the storage, so an SSD would net you significant gains if you really have to nitpick about that. Typically, you still have to wait almost 10 minutes after boot even with an SSD in some cases because WIFI networks and other stuffs are still being initialized after boot. While WIFI is being initialized, Safari would seem like it hung (not load any page), but in fact, it's just waiting for WIFI.

That's why it's generally better to sleep the computer. But even then, the WIFI stuff applies, so... usually about 5 to 10 minutes after either boot or sleep before you can safely sail smoothly through the computer. Getting a better router won't help because heavy traffic on the WIFI network would still bog it down.

Dragging files is really a problem with HDD, though. Again, you want an SSD there.

But even with SSD, as mentioned, it's not the solution... because you'd still get lag when you insert a USB flash drive or USB HDD. It's a natural occurrence.

 

[theSeb]

You will see lag with a HDD.

Opening applications relies on disk I/O, and for something like Safari, barely stresses your CPU/RAM. It's clear that your issue is a HDD read problem. Download Black Magic Disk Speed test from the Mac App Store or get Xbench and run a disk speed test. Post up your results here.

My guess is that your read speed is around ~70-85 MB/sec.

That test is sequential speed with incompressible files. The benchmark has very little to do with how fast apps open.

 

[dusk007]

Ignore people like Acejam and keep to the stuff that miniConvert, aplhaod and theSeb said. An SSD may help with App launching times but for the stuff you report it won't change a thing. Once an App is loaded into RAM, it should perform at about the same speed regardless of SSD or HDD. Choppy animations are usually no SSD problem at best a problem of too little VRAM and too many windows open.
As for bill-p Wifi stuff. I can load a website in a browser about 20 seconds after I hit the start button with an SSD. Wifi is quick and even if the startup is slower on an HDD Wifi initalization is equally fast and shouldn't take more than a couple seconds even on encrypted networks.
If it takes more than 10 seconds there is usually a router problem or a incompatible router of sorts.

What you need to do is not to get an SSD but just do the damn clean install. The stuff you report have nothing to do with an SSD. If Photoshop loads too slow you can buy an SSD but an SSD doesn't really make a system much faster. For the most part people launch applications and let them sit in the dock until they shut off the system. If you use standby like most people and restart only ever other week for updates you don't actually launch all that many applications anyway.
SSD can only help system speed in special high IO stuff like comiling, video editing, music mixing. Safari, Word, Excel, itunes runs not a microsecond faster on an SSD as that stuff runs all in ram and only has IO rarely and usually in async manner. Also GUI animations have little to do with an SSD and they aren't supposed to be choppy unless you have like 30+ Windows (tabs don't count).

Do a clean lion install

 

[Acejam2k]

That test is sequential speed with incompressible files. The benchmark has very little to do with how fast apps open.

I asked him to run the test merely because I wanted him to understand what everyone means when they say "hard drives are slow".

----------

If Photoshop loads too slow you can buy an SSD but an SSD doesn't really make a system much faster.

Have you ever owned a computer with an SSD? I don't care how much CPU and/or RAM you have - a quality SSD compared to a HDD is a night and day difference.

 

[Santabean2000]

People need to start realizing that HDDs are becoming a thing of the past and as our processors become more apt to multi-tasking, the HDDs physical limitations start to show more and more. Pop an SSD in there and I guarantee your qualms with slowness will be a thing of the past.

If that's the case, have you not considered an optibay option? Pop a 256ssd and retain your HDD.

I dont want to create a risk of voiding my warranty since I just purchased applecare.
And I use my superdrive quite often.
I either have to wait for SSD price to go down or something that would really make me need of optibay.

Im also worried about optibay having so much problems :/

yea I already have that disabled and application removed.
Thanks!

----------

So... to sum things up here, answer is to get a SSD?

Ignore people like Acejam and keep to the stuff that miniConvert, aplhaod and theSeb said. An SSD may help with App launching times but for the stuff you report it won't change a thing. Once an App is loaded into RAM, it should perform at about the same speed regardless of SSD or HDD. Choppy animations are usually no SSD problem at best a problem of too little VRAM and too many windows open.
As for bill-p Wifi stuff. I can load a website in a browser about 20 seconds after I hit the start button with an SSD. Wifi is quick and even if the startup is slower on an HDD Wifi initalization is equally fast and shouldn't take more than a couple seconds even on encrypted networks.
If it takes more than 10 seconds there is usually a router problem or a incompatible router of sorts.

What you need to do is not to get an SSD but just do the damn clean install. The stuff you report have nothing to do with an SSD. If Photoshop loads too slow you can buy an SSD but an SSD doesn't really make a system much faster. For the most part people launch applications and let them sit in the dock until they shut off the system. If you use standby like most people and restart only ever other week for updates you don't actually launch all that many applications anyway.
SSD can only help system speed in special high IO stuff like comiling, video editing, music mixing. Safari, Word, Excel, itunes runs not a microsecond faster on an SSD as that stuff runs all in ram and only has IO rarely and usually in async manner. Also GUI animations have little to do with an SSD and they aren't supposed to be choppy unless you have like 30+ Windows (tabs don't count).

Do a clean lion install

I asked him to run the test merely because I wanted him to understand what everyone means when they say "hard drives are slow".

----------



Have you ever owned a computer with an SSD? I don't care how much CPU and/or RAM you have - a quality SSD compared to a HDD is a night and day difference.

Doing a clean install will only cost you time and effort. If that doesn't solve it, then look to paid solutions, read: SSD.

Personally, I will never buy a new computer again without an SSD inside, (or put inside by me). Once you get use to instant, everything else slower is just painful.

 

[dusk007]

Have you ever owned a computer with an SSD? I don't care how much CPU and/or RAM you have - a quality SSD compared to a HDD is a night and day difference.

I do have an SSD and I used the same computer for more than a year with an 5400rpm HDD before I switched to an SSD. I am very well informed as to what it speeds up and where it doesn't get you nothing.
With most of the problems the op reports and SSD will not heal them.

I asked him to run the test merely because I wanted him to understand what everyone means when they say "hard drives are slow".

And I assume to see that an HDD only reaches 80 MB/s sequentiall should proove to him that an SSD is soo much better.
That is maybe 2-4 times slower than a HDD but not the reason systems with an SSD feel so much faster. Watch a activitiy monitor. unless you extract files or copy (to and from ssd) the read/writes even with an SSD are in the 20 MB/s range.
The big difference is random read/write speed. Where an HDD is around 1-1.5MB/s and a good SSD 50-80MB/s rand read. Access times are between 0.05-1ms instead of the 16ms of the average 2.5" HDD.
These are the big difference that make a system feel faster a squential read/write bench won't make anybody understand any of this.

And what some people don't understand is that ram is again soo much faster and once data is loaded into ram and stays there, the ssd can have 2 second access time and it won't feel any different. Many applications (like word) don't have any disk access unless you save or it autosave every 5 mins and access that are like saving asyncron they don't halt a program and you won't feel a difference. It is the same with expose animations those shouldn't trigger any IO especially not with 16GB of RAM.

 

[yusukeaoki]

An SSD is definitely going to be faster, but it shouldn't be necessary at all. What is being described is far worse than normal performance with a HDD should be.

Definitely perform a clean install of Lion. If possible, back up the things you need manually, rather than using, say, Time Machine or something else, so you can be certain no settings/configurations are carried across.

If problems persist after doing this I'd be straight onto Apple.

What performance should I be expecting on a 7200rpm HDD?
Mine scored around 70~80mbps.

 

[dusk007]

a standard 7200rpm drive would be about 115 MB/s top speed. Not really a difference one feels it is more the lower access time and slightly higher random read that puts 7200rpm ahead of 5400rpm. Both of these improvements are still far away from an ssd.

As far as sequential speed is concerned you also need to look at what how much of the drive is filled up.
An HDD is fastest on the outermost part of the platter (which is the beginning of the drive) if you fill that part it will get progressively slower.
If you read write on a 5400rpm drive on the part closer to the beginning it will easily beat any 7200rpm drive that is 3 quaters full.

Here is a showcase with the fastest 500GB 7200rpm drive on the market.

At the end of the drive it has a meager 50-60MB/s. Which is about 50% performance loss.

Your problems though have absolutely nothing at all to do with too little squential read/write speed. If you attach a 800MB/s fast raid 0 hdd array over thunderbolt it would still be the same even though that number exceeds the speed of any ssd and even sata 3.
What you need is to do a clean install anything else won't help you. You might as well get it over with. If it is still too slow for you after you run a clean machine you can think about an SSD or the rather small improvement of a 7200rpm drive.

Throwing more hardware at a software problem is a stupid way to do it and this case won't help. 16GB RAM also didn't get you anything from what I can read out of your posts you probably don't need 8GB and would do fine without any performance losses with 4. More RAM doesn't hurt but it also doesn't help if there is no use for it or a use that yields little to no speed improvement.