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Re: Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by ethernet76
Apple hasn't ever dropped prices on accessories. They've made them better. I think we'll see larger capacity before lower prices.
Never?
Wasn't the 10Gb iPod originally $399, and the 3rd. Gen $299?
edit:
A quick double check confirms it:
2nd Gen. Specs
3rd Gen. Specs
In fact, the 2nd Gen. 10 Gb was $499 and later $399 when the 20Gb came out. Later, when the 3rd Gen. was released the 10 Gb came down to $299. Quite a drop, from $499 to $299. That makes the final version of the 10 Gb 60% of the original price.
 
iPod mini mini... Screw that!, I want iPod HUGE, that holds 1TB and is the size of a closed 17" PowerBook.

Steve: "Yeah, we're trying to target and takeover the 500GB+ mp3 player market. ...Or, we're trying to create the market, rather. Cuz you see, previous generation, small-ass flash based players can hold, what, 15 songs?, and then you put it in your drawer because you're stupid, but with the iPod HUGE, you can hold 250,000 songs- in your very big pocket. Nearly 17,000 times more songs! -It'll be the best $3000 you'll ever spend."

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
 
Originally posted by kryten2000
So Ive been comparing mp3 players around the $200 mark and it looks like the ipodmini could contend.Check this offering from rio

http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/shop/_templates/item_main_Rio.asp?model=219&cat=35

I keep bringing this up, but one of the things that bothers me is that Apple compared the new mini to $100-$200, 128Mb-256Mb flash players. There are already HD players already in the same price range as the iPod mini. I guess Apple thinks the iPod mini's style, interface and iTunes compatibilty will be enough to dominate that market as well.

I just noticed Rio currently offers both a 1.5 Gb HD player for $199 and an 256Mb flash player for $199. You get 12 times the storage for the same price. How do they justify that?
 
Re: Re: Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
Never?
Wasn't the 10Gb iPod originally $399, and the 3rd. Gen $299?
edit:
A quick double check confirms it:
2nd Gen. Specs
3rd Gen. Specs
In fact, the 2nd Gen. 10 Gb was $499 and later $399 when the 20Gb came out. Later, when the 3rd Gen. was released the 10 Gb came down to $299. Quite a drop, from $499 to $299. That makes the final version of the 10 Gb 60% of the original price.

The original prices remained the same. the low-end iPod is still 299 as was the 5gb version back in the day. The 10 was demoted product status because it became easier to manufacture and it still fit well in the sizes they were looking for. But to think that instead of updating the 4gb and lowering the price instead is not in line with apple's history of product updates instead of price drops.

Also note, those are discontinued models when you now say the 2nd gen 10gb is now 60% cheaper. Discontinued models aren't really price reduced, they're trying to get rid of stock so they will even sometimes sell at a loss in order to make some money back on them.

edit: A quick double check shows that the gen 2 iPod is different than gen 3 even though the size is the same. So it wasn't like they were taking the gen 2 and pawning off just at a lower price, taking less profit.
 
Greed

I think people are overlooking the fact that with the mini iPod, Steve Jobs said, hey I don't have to compete in price, I'll just keep my usual profit margins and sell 4GB iPod for a whopping $249. Those suckers will buy enough of my product to keep me in business.

This is why Gates is the Richest man owning a monster monopoly and Jobs is a hippi wannabe getting credit for other people's creativity.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by ethernet76
The original prices remained the same. the low-end iPod is still 299 as was the 5gb version back in the day. The 10 was demoted product status because it became easier to manufacture and it still fit well in the sizes they were looking for. But to think that instead of updating the 4gb and lowering the price instead is not in line with apple's history of product updates instead of price drops.

Also note, those are discontinued models when you now say the 2nd gen 10gb is now 60% cheaper. Discontinued models aren't really price reduced, they're trying to get rid of stock so they will even sometimes sell at a loss in order to make some money back on them.

I think you should double check. The original iPod was $399. The 10 Gb was released at $499 and later dropped to $399 (specifications).
My point was that the 3rd Gen. 10 Gb NEW was 60% less that the original 10 Gb was when it came out.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Are you just relying on your memory? Did you read the link I included?
 
I think it will do well even though I think their silly and id never get one there not for macrumors members there for teenagers that consider the ipod "out of there range" but with the mini it is'nt that much more than flash based alternatives + it's cool It's not an alternative to the low end ipod it's an alternative to a crappy 256mb flash player renember 50 bucks is quite a difference to a teenager
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: cant you just order in the us?

Originally posted by Hector
The $364 figure is how much we pay for ipods in the uk, to give americans an idea how much more it costs.

they may spend more on there Privet health care but If you add the uk's privet and NHS spending per % of GDP is higher than the US's
Id rather live in the uk due to the fact that I know if I break my leg it wont break the bank

The uk is now a part of europe, europe has a way higher GNP than the U.S. I know where I'd rather live

Your iLife comment I totaly agree with thats the same point I was makeing with the ipod mini You must have completely missread it

sorry about the severly OT post but I had to state the facts.

OT: 2gb ipod's will never happen, 8gb minis and price reduction imminent in my opinion


Yeah I was agreeing with your post about the price differences, it's just then you went on to imply you thought it was all due to extra taxes in the UK that are spent on services that they don't have in the UK, and I was pointing out that acctually the price difference is huge even taking into account the only tax difference I'm aware of (although of course there may be other taxes that Apple encounters that are not so transparent), and so the price differences aren't perhaps as explainable as all that.

The politics is really irrelevant, it's just you were talking like you thought it was okay that the prices were so much higher because we have NHS etc, I was just pointing out it really isn't as simple as that and basically just trying to say we shouldn't write off poor pricing. (btw, *suprise surprise* (by that I mean the NHS discourages private health care spending) the UK only spent 1% of it's GDP on private healthcare in 1997 verses the US's 7.4%. This means the UK spent a total of 6.8% of GDP on health, with the US spending 13.9%. Also their GDP is far higher than the EUs - according to http://www.theglobalist.com/nor/GlobalistPapers/2001/07-18-01.shtml in 2000 their GDP was 9% higher than the EUs. Accoring to The Economist, America's GDP grew at 7.2% vs. 1.6% in Eurozone (I think those are annual rates based on Q3 2003). Sorry I know this is irrelvant just thought I'd put it in for interests sake, the point is:

Apples prices are bizzarly more expensive in the UK compared to US and I think they should try and do something about it because they must be running really inefficiently in Europe or something.


My iPod prediction - cheaper 2GB ones because anything >4GB looks excess for someone for something cheap. Would be great for upgrades when they run out of space. Hopefully they may revise them before they're even out in the UK, but I think they'll do that based on sales rather than anything we say or think.

I think the iLife pricing is fair (an idea for ppl annoyed might be wait till next version of Mac OSX is out since you'd buy it anyway and it'll be included in that I'd have thought since £99 is a little steep for yearly slight incremental updates anyway), but price differences between countries is bizarre (how can mailing a CD around the world cost that much?!?)
 
Re: hmm

Originally posted by yoman
A mini mini!
That sounds ridiculous. How small will it be ( size of a chiclet gum piece)

🙂
Don't laugh.

My flash player is the size of a small pack of gum. It plays MP3s and WAV files. Also records and plays FM radio. It has 256MB memory and connects via USB.

BTW, now they have a 512MB model.

Sushi
 
Originally posted by Mr.Hey
Current form factor; anything smaller and it runs into the same problems as the competition that SJ mentioned --- 1.5Gigs 2Gigs 3Gigs(?) and maybe 5Gigs by the next revision.
But is could be thinner with and lighter while maintaining the front (H&W) size.

The current iPod mini with the thickness of 1/4 inch and reduced weight would be very nice.

Sushi
 
Re: Greed

Originally posted by tace
I think people are overlooking the fact that with the mini iPod, Steve Jobs said, hey I don't have to compete in price, I'll just keep my usual profit margins and sell 4GB iPod for a whopping $249. Those suckers will buy enough of my product to keep me in business.

This is why Gates is the Richest man owning a monster monopoly and Jobs is a hippi wannabe getting credit for other people's creativity.
Why is everyone claiming Apple has such tremendous profit margins? Do they take into account the money spent on R&D for new products?

I suspect Apple (like most well run businesses) look at how many will sell at a given price and the profit per unit.
Additionally, they don't price things so that no people can afford them. They price them so just enough people can afford them.
Let's say the make $100 per mini (which they probably don't) and sell 1 million. That is $100 million.
If the drop the price $50 and made $50 per mini would the necessarily sell 2 million and make up the difference.
If the could drop their costs and make more per unit in the future it may make sense to drop the retail price while still being able to recouping their R&D costs on the mini and developing the next Apple product.
I think (and hope) that is the thinking behind Apple's pricing.

Seeing I didn't even go to business school to figure this out, I would guess the people at Apple know what they are doing.

Companies like Dell can sell computers so cheap because the do not "invent" anything new. They just assemble the parts.
 
Originally posted by Stella
We can all guess the price now...

take the most expensive flash device - that will be 128Mb flash device and add $50.

(128Mb flash because the 4Gig mini iPod was after the 256Mb flash market, so one can assume the 2gig will be targetted at the 128Mb MP3 player market)
Can't assume that.

Low end is becoming 256MB.

High end flash players are now 512MB.

Expect this to change to 1GB this year.

Sushi
 
Originally posted by sushi
Can't assume that.

Low end is becoming 256MB.

High end flash players are now 512MB.

Expect this to change to 1GB this year.

Sushi

I agree. Let's just hope that by the time the high end flash is 1 Gb, there are 4Gb and 8Gb minis competively priced.
Not to mention the whole standard iPod line for those who want more storage may be 20Gb, 40Gb, and 60Gb by that time.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: cant you just order in the us?

Originally posted by sonofslim
interesting speculation, given the removal of the 10gb model... what do the rest of you think?

if they have they keep the 4 as a lower capcity mini price to 200
updated high-end mini would be 6gb same price

I'm thinking, they have two ibooks(12,14), 3 powerbooks(12,15,17), might do the same thing mini Pods(4,6) iPods(15,30,50)
 
Re: Re: Greed

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
Why is everyone claiming Apple has such tremendous profit margins? Do they take into account the money spent on R&D for new products?

I suspect Apple (like most well run businesses) look at how many will sell at a given price and the profit per unit.
Additionally, they don't price things so that no people can afford them. They price them so just enough people can afford them.
Let's say the make $100 per mini (which they probably don't) and sell 1 million. That is $100 million.
If the drop the price $50 and made $50 per mini would the necessarily sell 2 million and make up the difference.
If the could drop their costs and make more per unit in the future it may make sense to drop the retail price while still being able to recouping their R&D costs on the mini and developing the next Apple product.
I think (and hope) that is the thinking behind Apple's pricing.

Seeing I didn't even go to business school to figure this out, I would guess the people at Apple know what they are doing.

Companies like Dell can sell computers so cheap because the do not "invent" anything new. They just assemble the parts.

I actually did go to business school and got to find out that Apple has very "healthy" profit margins. Yes, they do spend money in R&D and they do invent but you'd be surprised at how much thicker their margins are even compared to Dell. My point is that I have a problem with them overpricing things to make them be more of a class thing. I say, cheaper iPod minis for ALL.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
I think you should double check. The original iPod was $399. The 10 Gb was released at $499 and later dropped to $399 (specifications).
My point was that the 3rd Gen. 10 Gb NEW was 60% less that the original 10 Gb was when it came out.

Where are you getting your numbers from? Are you just relying on your memory? Did you read the link I included?

The difference is 3 iPods exist. While only 1 mini Pod exists. Let's say apple doesn't introduce a 2gb version, or other model. When time comes to update the line, instead of dropping prices they'll instead upgrade capacity to something like a 6 or 8 or something while the low-end iPod gets bumped up to a 20 or something.

The reason why the 10 has had such longevity in the iPod product cycle is because it was able to filter down from the high-end model to the low-end model. While you can look at it your way, same product, just got cheaper, you can also look at it in the way it wasn't ever the same product. It started as the highest capacity, then migrated to the smallest capacity and then was discontinued.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by ethernet76
The difference is 3 iPods exist. While only 1 mini Pod exists. Let's say apple doesn't introduce a 2gb version, or other model. When time comes to update the line, instead of dropping prices they'll instead upgrade capacity to something like a 6 or 8 or something while the low-end iPod gets bumped up to a 20 or something.

The reason why the 10 has had such longevity in the iPod product cycle is because it was able to filter down from the high-end model to the low-end model. While you can look at it your way, same product, just got cheaper, you can also look at it in the way it wasn't ever the same product. It started as the highest capacity, then migrated to the smallest capacity and then was discontinued.

But why assume there will always be only one size of mini. Apple like to have a couple of choice for each product (3 PowerMacs, 3 PowerBooks, 3 iMacs, 2 iBooks, 2e Macs, 3 iPods, etc.) In fact, the iPod mini really doesn't fit into the way Apple usually sells products. Maybe, right now 4Gb drives are the only option from Hitachi (or 2Gb drives are so close in cost there is no reason to use them).

I don't think they will drop the price for no reason. I think when 8Gb drives are availible from Hitachi they will drop the price on the 4 Gb ($199 or $219) and have the 8Gb takes it's price point.

I would be suprised to see a smaller (1 or 2Gb) mini appear unless it is already designed and ready but is so far away from shipping they didn't want to announce it at MWSF (admittedly the Keynote would have been more powerful with 8x the music, 50% the size, and the same price as the RioPlayer).

More likely, Apple is already working on bigger minis (kind of an oxymoron). When Hitachi figures out how to make higher capacity cheaper drives, the mini will benefit.
 
Re: Wishful Thinking???

Originally posted by david_r_p
I feel that this might be wishful thinking. Personally, I was hoping for a sub-$200 device yesterday. Not because I want one (I have a 30 gig ipod now), but because I want Apple to be dominant in this market. I'm sure they market tested the pricing, but my gut tells me $249 is too high for the "high end flash market" SJ wants to compete in.

I think it's only natural for we Mac-faithful to speculate on the "next" great device that Apple will release when what they actually release is less than hoped for.

p.s. I hope I'm wrong and Apple sells millions of these things.

You hit the nail on the head. We can always dream though, can't we?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: cant you just order in the us?

Originally posted by Hector
they may spend more on there Privet health care but If you add the uk's privet and NHS spending per % of GDP is higher than the US's

Privet health care? What like for a privet hedge?
Although the English do like a nice shrubbery, I think "private" is the word you are looking for.
 
If Apple put the new mini miniPod at $175 that would be the perfect price, $75 less then the high end one, and a $75 difference looks much better then a $50. I don't think we will see a $100-$150 iPod, the drives and fab just cost too much, besides Apple has to make a profit so $175 will be the base hopefully.
 
i was thinking

That this story was about Apple hooking up with the Mini Cooper to do a special deal like they did with the VW Beetle!

Buy a Mini Cooper and get a Mini iPod... not the best incentive but still a nice marketing ploy.
 
2 GB iPod $199 would make sense, which is why Apple wont do it, they're the kings of mark up. As it's been told the iPod is 50% profit margin, so $199 would mean $149 (about) to make... hmm, that seems right but I should have said 50% OR MORE because Apple is all about charging a mint.
 
In defense of the iPod look at a 256mb Flash player at $200 thats equivalent to $800 a gig, so in terms of a size cost comparison its a better deal with the iPod, but the $50 price diff is still going to cannibalize the sales of the 4 gig because the 15 is a better deal. However if you look at mini HD players from other companies its the same price, not only that, they offer larger storage models for $50 more, but u get a larger from factor.
Look at this
NOMAD Jukebox Zen Xtra 30GB
Navigate 30GB of music easily with the large, hi-res blue backlit LCD. $299

NOMAD MuVo² 4GB
Combines 4GB capacity, high-speed USB2.0 loading and superb sound quality in a remarkably compact, easy to use package. Connects as a USB flash drive to carry music and data files.

$299
They are the same price, but does it cannibalize sales? Apple is not the only one with offerings like this. Heck its $75 a gig on the Creative product, so maybe we should not bash the mini that much.
 
Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
I keep bringing this up, but one of the things that bothers me is that Apple compared the new mini to $100-$200, 128Mb-256Mb flash players. There are already HD players already in the same price range as the iPod mini. I guess Apple thinks the iPod mini's style, interface and iTunes compatibilty will be enough to dominate that market as well.

I just noticed Rio currently offers both a 1.5 Gb HD player for $199 and an 256Mb flash player for $199. You get 12 times the storage for the same price. How do they justify that?

The reason they compared them to the Flash based players is because they have the next largest market segment. Steve pointed out that ALL other hard drive based players together only comprise 7% of the market.

Later, Frank
 
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