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frankly

macrumors 6502a
May 6, 2003
649
97
Re: Greed

Originally posted by tace
I think people are overlooking the fact that with the mini iPod, Steve Jobs said, hey I don't have to compete in price, I'll just keep my usual profit margins and sell 4GB iPod for a whopping $249. Those suckers will buy enough of my product to keep me in business.

This is why Gates is the Richest man owning a monster monopoly and Jobs is a hippi wannabe getting credit for other people's creativity.

I don't know why people think this way. Bill Gates doesn't sell anything cheap. PCs that run windows are cheaper than Macs but let's be realistic:

Windows is the most expensive OS.
Microsoft Office is the most expensive office suite.
Their other apps aren't cheap either. There are plenty of reasons for the Microsoft monopoly (mainly illegal activity) that have nothing to do with the price they charge for their software.

Later, Frank
 

pjkelnhofer

macrumors 6502a
Sep 8, 2003
641
0
Boston
Originally posted by frankly
The reason they compared them to the Flash based players is because they have the next largest market segment. Steve pointed out that ALL other hard drive based players together only comprise 7% of the market.

Later, Frank

Obviously, Rio doesn't believe that a 4Gb $250 model is going to crush the flash market if they plan to introduce their own. They must think there's more to the high-end flash market then just capacity. They have a 1.5Gb HD player and a 256Mb Flash player both priced at $199.

I agree that Steve was comparing the iPod to "high-end" flash players. I just don't understand why? There must people people who no matter what is out there are not going to spend $250 no matter how great the product is.

Don't get me wrong, I think the mini is going to succeed. I just don't believe it is going to eat in to the "high-end" flash market the way Steve said. I think it is going to go after the other 7% of the market (other HD players) and the iPod itself. I think Apple will be in excellent shape if between the iPod and the mini the have around 50% of the the sakes. The 31% Steve quoted is of sales between Oct.-Nov. It does not mean that 31% of people with portable digital music players have iPods.

Has anyone seen numbers on that?
 

sosumi99

macrumors 6502
Oct 27, 2003
363
322
Re: Re: Greed

Originally posted by frankly

Their other apps aren't cheap either. There are plenty of reasons for the Microsoft monopoly (mainly illegal activity) that have nothing to do with the price they charge for their software.

Later, Frank

Let's be realistic here. Did Microsoft ever point a gun at people to upgrade and buy their apps? No? Hah, didn't think so. The market chose.

Why did they choose MS? Because back then, before they had their monopoly, they were competing on price and features. People may be forgetting this now, but back when Word 5 for the Mac came out, we Mac users loved MS. We praised it to the heavens. MS could do no wrong. How things change...

MS got to where they are by marketing themselves well and coming up with a really good product -- before they began their long, arrogant decline. I wish Apple would emulate the young Microsoft more, the MS that developed a great word processor and pricing it right.
 

Stella

macrumors G3
Apr 21, 2003
8,883
6,477
Canada
Re: Re: Re: cant you just order in the us?

Well, no sh?t.

Rip off Britain.

Expensive accommodation, poor service, poor government, high cost of DVDs and Cd.

And the British public still buy the rip off prices.

Sweat shop wages.

They get what they deserve.

Originally posted by voodoofish
Um no, if you add VAT to the US price (US prices don't include sales tax, which varies from about 6-8% state-to-state) it's $293, not $364. Even including the sales tax difference, the iPod mini is more expensive in the UK than the 15GB iPod in the states. I don't see what the NHS has to do with that (and note the US spends as more money as a % of GDP on state health care as we do (in 1997 6.5 vs our 5.8) ~and~ their GDP is higher than ours; I know where I'd rather live). I qualify for student discount and yet iLife costs more with a student discount in the UK than the full price in the US. I'm just gonna buy them both on a trip over there; the price difference is ludacris.
 

frankly

macrumors 6502a
May 6, 2003
649
97
Re: Re: Re: Greed

Originally posted by sosumi99
Let's be realistic here. Did Microsoft ever point a gun at people to upgrade and buy their apps? No? Hah, didn't think so. The market chose.

Why did they choose MS? Because back then, before they had their monopoly, they were competing on price and features. People may be forgetting this now, but back when Word 5 for the Mac came out, we Mac users loved MS. We praised it to the heavens. MS could do no wrong. How things change...

MS got to where they are by marketing themselves well and coming up with a really good product -- before they began their long, arrogant decline. I wish Apple would emulate the young Microsoft more, the MS that developed a great word processor and pricing it right.

I think it is you that needs to be realistic. Did you miss all of the testimony in the U.S. vs. Microsoft antitrust trial??? They used numerous illegal tactics to gain monopoly status which is why they were found guilty.

Some examples include:

Forcing PC manufacturers to pay the license fee for Windows on every PC sold, even if it didn't have Windows installed.

Forcing PC manufacturers to NOT install Netscape or AOL software if they wanted to install Windows.

All of this is documented and the case is over. They were breaking the law in order to create a monopoly.

Later, Frank
 

ethernet76

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2003
501
0
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by pjkelnhofer
But why assume there will always be only one size of mini. Apple like to have a couple of choice for each product (3 PowerMacs, 3 PowerBooks, 3 iMacs, 2 iBooks, 2e Macs, 3 iPods, etc.) In fact, the iPod mini really doesn't fit into the way Apple usually sells products. Maybe, right now 4Gb drives are the only option from Hitachi (or 2Gb drives are so close in cost there is no reason to use them).

I don't think they will drop the price for no reason. I think when 8Gb drives are availible from Hitachi they will drop the price on the 4 Gb ($199 or $219) and have the 8Gb takes it's price point.

I would be suprised to see a smaller (1 or 2Gb) mini appear unless it is already designed and ready but is so far away from shipping they didn't want to announce it at MWSF (admittedly the Keynote would have been more powerful with 8x the music, 50% the size, and the same price as the RioPlayer).

More likely, Apple is already working on bigger minis (kind of an oxymoron). When Hitachi figures out how to make higher capacity cheaper drives, the mini will benefit.

Personally I belive the mini is stupid. 50 dollars more and i get over 3 times the storage? It's a joke. But I can get it in 5 different colors, that's important when it goes in my pocket. Or, i can attach it to my belt. That's not tacky. It can go right next to my cool cellphone that's on my belt.

I'd like to see cheaper, smaller capacity simply for the fact 250 isn't cheap enough. Ideally for the mini to be a success and actually have a decent market share it needs to target the 149-189 market. The only people who will buy minis are those that don't know any better, and those who can almost afford an iPod but not. Which is a very small market.

Who wants to start a poll on how long the flop takes?
 

ethernet76

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2003
501
0
MS had to be good at something at one point.

It wasn't like when MS was started they started forcing large companies to do things, they didn't have the power then. They rose by marketing, and competing, the monoply crap only came after that.

You can't be an instant monopoly. You have to do something right first.
 

bokdol

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2002
897
35
VA
i found out what the mini really is for.

i know everybody is complaining about the price of the mini's, but the mini's are really not for us (as in the ones that think for an extra 50 bucks more we coule get the 15)
the mini's are for all the younger school kids that dont need the large amount of space. where 1000 songs are perfect for students to take around.
how i came to this i dea was that i work in a high school. and unlike the people of these forums. the kids did not care about the fact that it held only 4 gigs. but at a 1000 songs it's more then enough for them. and the parents are more willing to send the money then lets say 300 dollars. also the pink one was a big favorite to highschool girls.

just think how many teenage girls saw titanic 4 to 5 times. its' the same market that well buy these mini's



just a thought....
 

El Tritoma

macrumors member
Jun 17, 2003
45
2
Albuquerque, NM
I just read this on the NY Times website. More anecdotal evidence about the popularity of the iPod.
"At the big DataVision Computer Video store in Midtown Manhattan, personal digital audio players were one of the holiday season's best sellers, said John A. Griffin, the store's sales manager, and iPods were clearly the players of choice.

"For every one of the other players we sold people bought 70 to 80 iPods," Mr. Griffin said one day recently as shoppers ogled a store display of more than 50 different models of players ranging in size from cigarette lighters to small jewelry boxes."

70 - 80 to 1 ratio!!
 

miradu

macrumors member
Jun 21, 2003
39
0
I think people are forgetting something. Steve Jobs never said that he didn't want to compete in the $99 market, he said that the current devices under $99 are worthless because they only hold 15 songs. Now, Apple currently has products to address 2/3rd's of the mp3 player market - the iPod Little would address that last third. It would be "cool", but because of a $99-$149 price it wouldn't be that cool, when compared to the anodized aluminum or stainless steel of the bigger ipdos. Don't belive me? check out apple.com/itunes . Look at the left hand side where they list ipods. see the title "Little" missing a picture, and instead having the words "he next big thing"?

Something didn't get announced at macworld, because it is going to generate enough press on it's own. How about 1/26/04 as a relase date? That's the modified date in the ipodified 1984 commercial. Look closely at the left hand side of big brother's screen near the end when they do the close up.. They changed the date from 1/24/84 to 1/26/04.. A weird, pointless change if you ask me ;)

Last of all, if we have a VERY accurate rumor correctly predicting a 4 GB iPod, shouldn't the other half be true?

(note, I do NOT know any inside info, this is based on the two sources listed above and my own imagination)
 

Powerbook G5

macrumors 68040
Jun 23, 2003
3,974
1
St Augustine, FL
"Little." Seems to start the statement "The next big thing." and not be a place holder for another iPod. Apple generally follows that pattern of making short, provocative phrases with lots of periods to get their point across and they are just stating that "little" is the "next big thing".
 

frankly

macrumors 6502a
May 6, 2003
649
97
Originally posted by miradu
Don't belive me? check out apple.com/itunes . Look at the left hand side where they list ipods. see the title "Little" missing a picture, and instead having the words "he next big thing"?

Something didn't get announced at macworld, because it is going to generate enough press on it's own. How about 1/26/04 as a relase date? That's the modified date in the ipodified 1984 commercial. Look closely at the left hand side of big brother's screen near the end when they do the close up.. They changed the date from 1/24/84 to 1/26/04.. A weird, pointless change if you ask me ;)

Powerbook G5 is exactly right in his analysis of the "Little. The next big thing." That is the catch phrase for the new iPod mini.

However, very interesting about the video. I have to give you big time props for noticing that. I was currently very sure that we would here an announcement from Apple at the end of this month concerning the release of updated G5s. Now, the rumor mills are starting to say the same thing along with the update of "another product in the Mac line"

That sounds pretty vague. I wonder if they aren't going to do something pretty special for the 20th anniversary which is that weekend. Hhhmmm

Perhaps we should all clear our calendars for 01/26/04 at 9:14 pacific time?

Later, Frank
 

elo

macrumors regular
Feb 6, 2003
140
0
Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by MongoTheGeek

[apocryphal history lesson]
The president of sony decided on the size of the CD so that it would be big enough to hold all of Beethoven's 9th Symphony which runs a bit over 70 minutes, The size of a CD.
[/apocryphal history lesson]

That's not only true, but it was done with history in mind. The original size of the LP was chosen to allow Beethoven's 5th Symphony to fit (two movements on each side). Sony decided to honor this precedent when designing the CD.

elo
 

sushi

Moderator emeritus
Jul 19, 2002
15,639
3
キャンプスワ&#
HS Flash Player...

Just received a Hammacher Schlemmer catalog.

And what do they have on the first page, but a picture of a flash player like the one that I have.

Here is the product listing:

http://www.hammacher.com/publish/70549.asp?promo=el_audio

Price:

$199.95 for 128MB

$249.95 for 256MB

Granted HS is not cheap.

In my case, I paid about $350 for the 256MB model when it first came out.

So, it looks like the iPod mini will be a vialble option for those who want a smal player with large capacity.

Sushi
 

AlbinoPigeon

macrumors regular
Jan 1, 2004
128
66
Vancouver, BC
Re: Re: Re: Re: cant you just order in the us?

Originally posted by voodoofish
Um no, if you add VAT to the US price (US prices don't include sales tax, which varies from about 6-8% state-to-state) it's $293, not $364. Even including the sales tax difference, the iPod mini is more expensive in the UK than the 15GB iPod in the states. I don't see what the NHS has to do with that (and note the US spends as more money as a % of GDP on state health care as we do (in 1997 6.5 vs our 5.8) ~and~ their GDP is higher than ours; I know where I'd rather live). I qualify for student discount and yet iLife costs more with a student discount in the UK than the full price in the US. I'm just gonna buy them both on a trip over there; the price difference is ludacris.

Is this really the place for this discussion? C'mon people. You have a heart attack - where would you rather be if you aren't rich (or one of the bunch with insurance). The answer: UK and Canada. But drop all this already. If you really want to compare social systems think 'drug policy' and take this topic somewhere else.
 

pjkelnhofer

macrumors 6502a
Sep 8, 2003
641
0
Boston
Originally posted by miradu

Something didn't get announced at macworld, because it is going to generate enough press on it's own. How about 1/26/04 as a relase date? That's the modified date in the ipodified 1984 commercial. Look closely at the left hand side of big brother's screen near the end when they do the close up.. They changed the date from 1/24/84 to 1/26/04.. A weird, pointless change if you ask me ;)

Last of all, if we have a VERY accurate rumor correctly predicting a 4 GB iPod, shouldn't the other half be true?

(note, I do NOT know any inside info, this is based on the two sources listed above and my own imagination)

I would believe the date change was more significant if it either was Tuesday (the day when Apple tends to make products announcements) or if it were the day after the Superbowl (if it said 2/2/04 I would really be in a tizzy right now). That said, it doesn't make much sense to change the date on the screen when the date on the graphic (and the voice over for that matter) still are Jan. 24th.

I do plan to watch the SuperBowl on Feb 1st, however, because I have convinced myself that Apple is going to release a 20th anniversary Mac by re-using that ad somehow. After all, why announce something in front of a conference center full of MacGeeks and computer insiders when you can intro it during what is historically the single most watched event of the year.

ps. Is this how rumors get started?
 

Belly-laughs

macrumors 6502a
Jun 8, 2003
871
42
you wish
Re: i found out what the mini really is for.

Originally posted by bokdol
i know everybody is complaining about the price of the mini's, but the mini's are really not for us (as in the ones that think for an extra 50 bucks more we coule get the 15)
the mini's are for all the younger school kids that dont need the large amount of space. where 1000 songs are perfect for students to take around.
how i came to this i dea was that i work in a high school. and unlike the people of these forums. the kids did not care about the fact that it held only 4 gigs. but at a 1000 songs it's more then enough for them. and the parents are more willing to send the money then lets say 300 dollars. also the pink one was a big favorite to highschool girls.

just think how many teenage girls saw titanic 4 to 5 times. its' the same market that well buy these mini's



just a thought....

I didn´t see Titanic, and most probably never will. I´m not even a teenage school girl. But still, I´d love a green mini.

Must mean I´m feminine and blessed with a young heart :)
 

WestCoast

macrumors newbie
Apr 10, 2003
12
0
Aberystwyth
Ipod purchase?

Just wondering, would anyone of our friends in the USA be willing to purchase an iPod mini on my behalf, and send it over here (UK)? I suspect I may get a great saving! If so, let me know ...
 

dgdosen

macrumors 68030
Dec 13, 2003
2,814
1,459
Seattle
Has anyone held these things?

I'd like a first hand experience review.

I think at 250, they should include the dock and armband. I'd want those accessories, and they'd both add to the already existing high price.

I think Apple missed the ball here a bit. I think 200 would have been a good price (impulse buy for second iPods for exisiting owners), but 250 is too much. I'll bet they drop the price within 6 months under the guise of some upgrade.
 

Count Blah

macrumors 68040
Jan 6, 2004
3,192
2,748
US of A
Re: Re: the *Real* reason for 4 gigs.

Originally posted by sonofslim
i've heard the CD thing too, although its veracity is uncertain. as for the iPod mini, seems more likely that 1,000 songs is a nice round number with just enough zeroes to impart a sense of value and technolust that fits with Apple's branding strategy.

But my Nieces and Nephews don't give a rats a$$ about a sense of value nor technolust. They only care about what they can get the parents to buy/get as a gift. At $249, they are not getting an iPod mini - At $199 they might have gotten one. Oh well, looks like Apple just wants it's 95% of the $250+ market share to go to 97% instead of going after the middle third of that keynote piechart.
 

hayesk

macrumors 65816
May 20, 2003
1,460
101
Re: Re: Re: Greed

Originally posted by tace
I actually did go to business school and got to find out that Apple has very "healthy" profit margins. Yes, they do spend money in R&D and they do invent but you'd be surprised at how much thicker their margins are even compared to Dell. My point is that I have a problem with them overpricing things to make them be more of a class thing. I say, cheaper iPod minis for ALL.

Then why aren't Apple making billions of dollars in profits? Where's the money going? If Apple was overpricing things, then surely they'd be laughing all the way to the bank. We've seen their financial statements - they're healther but there quarterly profits aren't that big.
 

Powerbook G5

macrumors 68040
Jun 23, 2003
3,974
1
St Augustine, FL
That's because most pissed off people who complain about Apple's "high profit markup" aren't considering the cost of R&D, cost of manufacturing, cost of design, cost of employee salaries, cost of leasing space in factories, cost of marketing, cost of doing business, etc. They just think these things magically appear on the shelves and Apple gets 60-90% of the cost for everything sold.
 

Count Blah

macrumors 68040
Jan 6, 2004
3,192
2,748
US of A
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
That's because most pissed off people who complain about Apple's "high profit markup" aren't considering the cost of R&D, cost of manufacturing, cost of design, cost of employee salaries, cost of leasing space in factories, cost of marketing, cost of doing business, etc. They just think these things magically appear on the shelves and Apple gets 60-90% of the cost for everything sold.

And people believe it's better to sell 100 units at 20% profit margin then 10 units at 30%. I think that most people here want Apple to succeed. We personally think that it would have benifited Apple to release something in the under $200 market($199 counts). A $199 - 1.5/2 Gig model would have opened up the Apple brand to that middle third of that Keynote piechart. Instead, Jobs priced Apple out of all those people who have $199 hard caps on MP3 players.
 
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