A surprise unwrapping a "new" 7600/120

[bunnspecial]

Oh, I just make this crap up, to troll you all for ***** and giggles.


Oh no wait, I don't.

72-pin 256mb...
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...in+256mb+.TRS0&_nkw=72pin+256mb+&_sacat=11210

168-pin 512mb...
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...pin+512mb.TRS0&_nkw=168pin+512mb&_sacat=11210

Did you not read what I said?

All the 168 pin 512mb modules you linked to are SD-RAM, something that I did acknowledge existed. Heck, I buy PC-133 512mb RAM by the case just about-it works at full capacity in every tower from the Sawtooth to the Quicksilver. The computer I'm typing this post from has three in it. Pin count does not(by itself) a RAM module make...those modules won't even physically fit the computers we're talking about. EDO RAM is absolutely nothing like SD-RAM-basically the only thing they have in common is that they share a common packaging with the same number of pins.

The 256mb 72 pin modules you linked are proprietary HP workstation memory that are completely irrelevant for any Mac application. The 72 pin SIMMs you linked to are a kit of 4x64mb modules, something that I have seen(although 64mb 72s are not that common).
[doublepost=1467505772][/doublepost]

Actually, a bootable ATA card is an excellent idea even if you do have a secret stash of hi-cap SCSI HD's. With a IDE to SATA adapter, you could have an SSD in there.
SSD prices are still high, but that won't always be the case, occasional bargains crop up now, and I suspect prices of smaller capacity ones (64 120 and maybe 256gb) are likely to fall within the net year or so.
They're not likely to go up, at least.

If you want SATA drives, use a bootable SATA card. They're as easy to find as their IDE equivalent, and you can even flash some really cheap ones to make them IDE compatible.

 

[oi!]

Did you not read what I said?

I did.

All the 168 pin 512mb modules you linked to are SD-RAM,

Look, it was late, I was tired, and mildly annoyed that people were suggesting I'd made stuff up.
I have those two searches (among others) copy-pasted into a file saved on my HD for rainy days.

I copy-pasted into the reply without me checking what was on eBay today.
If nobody is selling these today, then I apologize, but I have found both on those searches in the past.

I only know about 72pin 256mb sticks from reading the 6100 upgrade section on lowendmacs...
http://www.kan.org/6100/RAM.html

They're mentioned elsewhere on the net, such as...
http://everything2.com/title/Macintosh+6100

If you want SATA drives, use a bootable SATA card. They're as easy to find as their IDE equivalent.

True, and if we're going to be picky, IDE SSD's also exist.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...2.A0.H0.Xssd+ide.TRS0&_nkw=ssd+ide&_sacat=165

I could have written a wall of text to cover all of this, but who would have read it? Likely nobody.

Like I said, it was late, I was tired, I apologize if you feel what I said was misleading.
Did I mention I was mildly annoyed that it was being implied that I was making stuff up?

you can even flash some really cheap ones to make them IDE compatible.

I did not know that, does flashing the card allow you to plug SATA and IDE connectors together? Or do you need an adapter?

 

[bunnspecial]

Look, it was late, I was tired, and mildly annoyed that people were suggesting I'd made stuff up.
I have those two searches (among others) copy-pasted into a file saved on my HD for rainy days.

I copy-pasted into the reply without me checking what was on eBay today.
If nobody is selling these today, then I apologize, but I have found both on those searches in the past.

I only know about 72pin 256mb sticks from reading the 6100 upgrade section on lowendmacs...
http://www.kan.org/6100/RAM.html

They're mentioned elsewhere on the net, such as...
http://everything2.com/title/Macintosh+6100

Well, you were the one who made the claim. I've handled a lot of old Macs and the only 168 pin 4K refresh 5V EDO DIMMs have seen have been 128mb or smaller. Trust me when I say those of us who have these big old PowerMacintoshes, especially with high speed G3 or G4 upgrades, would be all over larger capacity sticks if they existed.

So, either show me that they exist or I will stay pretty secure in my belief that no sticks larger than 128mb exist.

As for 72 pin SIMMs-128s in the format used in Macs(and early PCs) are known but also somewhat scarce and expensive. There again, folks maintaining high end 68K and NuBus PowerMacintoshes for legacy applications would be all over big sticks like this. Heck, you stick 1gb in a 7100/8100 if they did exist. I've found vague references, but have never seen anyone produce such a stick.
[doublepost=1467564683][/doublepost]

True, and if we're going to be picky, IDE SSD's also exist.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...2.A0.H0.Xssd+ide.TRS0&_nkw=ssd+ide&_sacat=165

I could have written a wall of text to cover all of this, but who would have read it? Likely nobody.

Like I said, it was late, I was tired, I apologize if you feel what I said was misleading.
Did I mention I was mildly annoyed that it was being implied that I was making stuff up?

IDE SSDs certainly exist, and I've put together a fair number of my own for PowerBooks. SATA SSDs have the advantage of(generally) being less expensive and also faster although in many cases the bottleneck is in the PCI bus. Also, the cheap IDE SSDs are often CF cards stuffed into a 2.5" sized enclosure-a set up of which I'm not a fan(I use mSATA drives in my own installations).

BTW, yes I am implying that you are making this up, or at least don't understand the distinction between pin count and the type of RAM. As I said above, "show me."

 

[oi!]

[rolleyes]

512mb 168-pin EDO dimm for Mac G3...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/512MB-133MHz-168-PIN-MEMORY-POWERMAC/dp/B001CZAVVU

Also, found online...
"The 512MB stick in my Summer 2001 iMac is PC133 . No problems. It's paired with a 128MB stick of PC100 I think." (protocol7, 15 November 2009 - 02:16 AM)
"I have a couple of 512MB PC133 sticks in my G3 500 DV iMac. It works."(H3NRY, 15 November 2009 - 06:51 AM)
"You can get just about any crappy old double-sided 512 MB stick and put it in there and it will work fine. I've never worried about CAS Latency or any of that nonsense either."(Mike Richardson, 17 November 2009 - 07:14 AM)
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/10930-pc133-ram-compatible-with-slot-load-imacs/


I'll have a look for 72pin PPC to PC server compatibility another time. Suffice to say that I have previously found 256mb 72pin EDO 60ns DIMMS on eBay in the past. I've looked at the pics on those listings, counted the pins to see where the cut outs were (same point as PPC 6100/7100/8100) and compared voltages.
What I haven't done, is tried actually installing them myself.

 

[bunnspecial]

Also, found online...
"The 512MB stick in my Summer 2001 iMac is PC133 . No problems. It's paired with a 128MB stick of PC100 I think." (protocol7, 15 November 2009 - 02:16 AM)
"I have a couple of 512MB PC133 sticks in my G3 500 DV iMac. It works."(H3NRY, 15 November 2009 - 06:51 AM)
"You can get just about any crappy old double-sided 512 MB stick and put it in there and it will work fine. I've never worried about CAS Latency or any of that nonsense either."(Mike Richardson, 17 November 2009 - 07:14 AM)
https://68kmla.org/forums/index.php?/topic/10930-pc133-ram-compatible-with-slot-load-imacs/

Once again, you're not getting it.

All of those discussions are about G3 and later Macs.

Those are SD-RAM sticks, something which I've full acknowledged the existence of in 512mb capacities(heck I've even seen 1gb ones, although they're scarce and pricey). EVERY G3 Mac(with the exception of the Kanga) uses SD-RAM. Beige G3s, slot load iMacs, B&W G3 towers, G4 towers up through the Quicksilver, early iMac G4s(internal slot), early eMacs, and the Cube ALL used this type of RAM. The G3 beige through the Yikes! G4 would recognize 512mb sticks at half capacity.

In addition, Wallstreet-Titanium Powerbook, tray load iMacs, iBook G3s, and some iMac G4s(external slot) used 144-pin SD-RAM SO-DIMMs. The Wallstreet, PDQ, and tray load iMac recognize 512mb sticks at half capacity. In addition, the Wallstreet and early revisions of iMac also maxed at 386mb.

That's all irrelevant to the discussion, though. Pre-G3 Powermacs of the series under discussion-once again(this is a mouth full) require 168 pin, 5v, 4K EDO RAM. These are keyed differently from PC-66/100/133 and will physically not fit aside from the fact that it's architecturally incompatible.

So, I'll say it again-find me 512mb 168 pin, 5v 4K EDO RAM that will fit an x600 series PowerMacintosh and I'll eat crow. Until then, as I said, you made the claim-show me.

 

[havokalien]

I also have never seen 168 pin, 5v EDO memory over 128 mb. I have a bunch in one giving me a gig of ram in 8 slots and thats amazing considering. Its much like 128 mb in an SE/30.

 

[bunnspecial]

I also have never seen 168 pin, 5v EDO memory over 128 mb. I have a bunch in one giving me a gig of ram in 8 slots and thats amazing considering. Its much like 128 mb in an SE/30.

If my Mac II worked, I'd be tempted to do that(although I'm not sure if it can address that much memory). Once I get it working, though, in a nod to @eyoungren I want to hook 6 monitors up to it . I have seven functional DB-15 CRTs and 6 functional NuBus video cards(ranging from the low end Mac II color card all the way up to a Radius Precision Pro 24X and 24XP).

If I really wanted to go nuts, I have 6 Radeon 9200s. One is currently in my 9600 and one in my "Beast" G4 Beige at work. As if just having 6 of the cards isn't enough( @LightBulbFun was finding them cheap on Ebay for a while), I could go nuts with the 9600 and drive 12 displays.

 

[oi!]

OK, I'm sorry, looks like I had a memory lapse. 2 incompatible types of 168-pin ram sticks, I can find no trace of 512mb sticks in the 5V variety anywhere online.

256mb 72-pin sticks, giving 520mb in a 6100 is referred to (in an urban myth kind of way) in lots of places on the net, but no actual solid evidence of them that I've found so far.

1 site explains why it couldn't work, but then lot and lots say it has. I haven't entirely given up on that yet and my fingers are still crossed.
Haven't really found the right data for comparisons yet either, still looking.



Also, while researching the whole 256mb 72pin sticks, I stumbled on a site called 'Apple-Art', and in particular this thread...
http://www.apple-art.com/PCIX-SATA-controler-card_11299488.html

Seam familiar?
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pcix-sata-controler-card.1951325/

 

[MagicBoy]

Also, while researching the whole 256mb 72pin sticks, I stumbled on a site called 'Apple-Art', and in particular this thread...
http://www.apple-art.com/PCIX-SATA-controler-card_11299488.html

Seam familiar?
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pcix-sata-controler-card.1951325/

Already flagged here : https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-art-com.1953199/

 

[havokalien]

the 6100 is nice and easy to overclock with an occilator and re apply thermal paste and put a fan in the heat sink. They used to make a kit for it. Adds like 10%, although my performa 638CD with 128 mb of ram (2 ram slot board) ramped up to 40 mhz, with added heat sink and cpu with full fpu out of a dead quadra 840av and it screams. I only wish the performas had more options for video cards, as what they did have did not have acceleration.

 

[ziggy29]

I have spent some of the day finishing up some updates. The hardware hasn't changed in the last two weeks yet, but the software has.

I have now installed and ran many systems from 7.5.5 to Tiger. Today, with the help of XPostFacto I finished installing Tiger from CD (I don't have DVD on this Mac so I had to install from four Tiger CDs) and applied the 10.4.11 combo update. It takes almost 4 minutes to boot into Tiger but it boots reliably!

With my trusty wireless Ethernet bridge I downloaded TFF 38.9.0 and finished picking up the software updates that weren't in the combo update:

I have a small number of projects I'd like to work on remaining at low cost:

* Find cheaper RAM upgrade alternatives to see if I can get this to 1 GB, especially for Tiger;
* Get an optical drive that can read and write CDs at minimum and DVDs if possible in OS X, needing to be bootable;
* Just for fun, if I can get a cheap Zip drive in the empty drive bay, what the hell.
* A G4 upgrade card, especially 700-800 MHz, would be cool if I lucked into a bargain, but at the $300+ I usually see, forget it.

The rig as of now:

* Power Mac 7600/132 (with original, working 604/132 card tucked away)
* 512 MB RAM
* Sonnet Crescendo G3/300/512
* Sonnet Tempo HD PCI card with attached 120 GB mSATA SSD with mSATA to 2.5" IDE adapter
* Adaptec DuoConnect AUA-3020 PCI with three USB 2.0 ports (1.1 in OS 9, 2.0 in OS X) and two FW 400 ports
* ATI Radeon 9200 Mac Edition (real, not flashed) with 128 MB VRAM
* 250 GB, 7200 RPM ATA HDD as secondary drive with more partitions for backups, booting other systems, and shared software and files
* ADB keyboard and mouse, as well as borrowed USB equivalents. I only use the ADB stuff for System 7.6.1 and when I need to use the keyboard at boot time.

Systems tested: 7.5.5, 7.6.1, 8.1, 8.6, 9.1, 9.2.2, 10.3.9, 10.4.11 -- above 9.1 I needed help, using "OS9Helper" to install 9.2.2 and XPostFacto for 10.X.

Status: USB works completely in 8.6 and above, as does FireWire. In 8.1, USB works for keyboard and mouse but not for storage devices. In 7.5.5 and 7.6.1, I have to use ADB keyboard and mouse, USB and FW are not at all functional. In all systems the G3 upgrade card seems to be engaged and recognized. (FW is not bootable but that is an architecture limitation that can not be overcome.)

Total "all in" cost: About $160 so far. Though that cost also includes the value of spare parts that were replaced along the way, including the 4.5 GB SCSI drive it came with, which is worth pretty decent money by itself.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Very nice build there and very nicely documented. one thing for when you install OS X On these old OWR PowerMacs with CPU upgrades is i recommend installing sonnets cache enabler to enable the L2/3 of the CPU upgrade in OS X it can make a surprising speed difference heh http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=319&expand=_a3&action=b154#b154 (note dont use the cache enabler in xpostfacto it usally crashes OS X) also if you could post some OS X system profiler shots that would be awesome

 

[ziggy29]

Very nice build there and very nicely documented. one thing for when you install OS X On these old OWR PowerMacs with CPU upgrades is i recommend installing sonnets cache enabler to enable the L2/3 of the CPU upgrade in OS X it can make a surprising speed difference heh http://www.sonnettech.com/support/kb/kb.php?cat=319&expand=_a3&action=b154#b154 (note dont use the cache enabler in xpostfacto it usally crashes OS X) also if you could post some OS X system profiler shots that would be awesome

Next time I get it running, I'll get some shots of the system profiles in OS 9 and OS X. I already have version 1.4 of Sonnet's Cache enabler loaded.

Also -- When I wrote the above I was waiting to test a couple of 128 MB memory sticks I bought on eBay for $10 each -- the usual retail outlet sells them for $20. So I bought two to try it, and they arrived this morning, and so far so good -- it seems stable and now I have 640 MB of RAM (and 2 extra 64 MB RAM sticks). I wanted to start with two so I could replace one interleaved pair and make sure everything worked fine before loading up the wagon.

At this price I just bought another six to max it out to 1 GB when it arrives, which should really help with OS X. Bought them at the link below (no connection with seller, just info), and I can probably check off the "max the RAM" project.

www.ebay.com/itm/128MB-EDO-MEMORY-RAM-NON-PARITY-BUFF-60NS-DIMM-168-PIN-/330591273951

 

[bunnspecial]

Next time I get it running, I'll get some shots of the system profiles in OS 9 and OS X. I already have version 1.4 of Sonnet's Cache enabler loaded.

Also -- When I wrote the above I was waiting to test a couple of 128 MB memory sticks I bought on eBay for $10 each -- the usual retail outlet sells them for $20. So I bought two to try it, and they arrived this morning, and so far so good -- it seems stable and now I have 640 MB of RAM (and 2 extra 64 MB RAM sticks). I wanted to start with two so I could replace one interleaved pair and make sure everything worked fine before loading up the wagon.

At this price I just bought another six to max it out to 1 GB when it arrives, which should really help with OS X. Bought them at the link below (no connection with seller, just info), and I can probably check off the "max the RAM" project.

www.ebay.com/itm/128MB-EDO-MEMORY-RAM-NON-PARITY-BUFF-60NS-DIMM-168-PIN-/330591273951

Let me give you a BIG thanks for that link...

14 sticks on their way here...

 

[ziggy29]

Hmm. I'm not sure the cache is enabled in OS X. I've installed SonnetCache version 1.4, and it says it successfully installs and I reboot. But the System Info says there is no L2 cache (should be 512KB). I get 512K reported in OS8/9 just fine with the Sonnet enabler loaded, so I don't think it's a broken cache issue. Does anyone know if there's anything else I need to install other than this?

 

[LightBulbFun]

see the 4th line down in the photo with "sonnetcache" do you see that on boot up when you boot OS X up in verbose mode? that is the Cache enabler loading and should be enabling the CPU cache if you do not see that then it may have been installed wrong or to the wrong volume (if you dont mind posting system profiler shots as i asked in my last post it would help )

 

[ziggy29]

Maybe the cache broke. Maybe I misremembered it working once upon a time. But now, nothing is seeing it.

 

[havokalien]

cache failing at this age is normal, i have seen mac os on ibook clamshells report cache failure on boot. So they must have known it was going to happen and be common to write code to check it.

 

[ziggy29]

The rest of the 128MB RAM sticks came yesterday and I got a chance to install them today. They seem to be working great and sporting a full gig of RAM now, and while a 300 MHz G3 with no working L2 is not going to break any speed records running Tiger, it's definitely more responsive with the extra memory breathing room. TFF is actually usable now for most sites.

In OS 8 and OS 9, I've taken to using a 50 MB RAM disk for browser cache and other temp files, since those systems will never need anywhere near 1 GB for anything I'd do with it. Just for fun at some point I could copy over system software and reboot from a RAM disk of sufficient size, just to test performance compared to running it off an SSD. I think this was an old laptop trick to prolong battery life, if I remember correctly.
[doublepost=1469221650][/doublepost]Speaking of my L2 cache.... even though the Mac OS doesn't show any L2 cache, either in OS 9 or in OS X, running NewerTech's GaugePRO in 9.1 or 9.2.2 shows 512K of L2 cache running at 151.5 MHz. (I took a picture of the screen, will upload later.) So now I'm really confused. The OS doesn't report recognizing any L2 cache, but a third party app does? I think this is why I earlier reported that I saw the cache in OS 9 before discovering that System Profiler doesn't report it.

[edit to add: I think the cache is working. Even though the system profiler utilities in the OS are not reporting cache, as I mentioned above a utility in OS 9 sees it, and in OS X, running XBench 1.3 also reports seeing 512K in cache.]

 

[bunnspecial]

Just wanted to report that I ordered a...rather large...amount of the RAM in the above link.

I've had an ongoing project to get an 8600 running Leopard. I have the CPU upgrade(700mhz/1mb Sonnet G4) which was probably the hardest part but you also need a video card and for practical reasons both a USB/FW combo card and an ATA card.

Previously, using enough "jink box" RAM got me up to a few hundred MB. 8600s are somewhat RAM picky, though, and it would KP when I tried to boot into Tiger with the G4 installed(the 604 was fine). I dropped 8x128mb sticks from the above link in 8600 and it came right up with the G4 with no issues whatsoever. I used Xpostfacto to do a Tiger install as my drive with @lightbulfun 's kernel(to allow Tiger to run on 60x processors) died. The computer was decently perky, although anyone doing this should remember that you MUST run Sonnet Cache Enabler(freely available on their website) to have the computer see and use both the L2 and L3 cache. Failing to do so will result in poor performance. There's also a version for OS 9(mine was in the processor box on a floppy) that should be run also. System profiler doesn't report the speed correctly, but Metronome does.

Unfortunately, Leopard is giving me fits. I tried a modified install that @LightBulbFun had made for G4-upgraded beige computers upgraded B&Ws, and upgraded Yikes! which should have booted it right up. It didn't, so I'll have to revisit again in a few days.

I put the remaining 6 sticks in my 9600/200MP and cleared out all the "junk" for 768mb of interleaved RAM. This is an OS9 only computer and the extra RAM(and I suspect the speed advantages to interleaving) seemed to help a lot. Photoshop 6-one of only about a half dozen programs that can use the second processor in this computer-flies on it. I've just placed another order that will allow me to max the 9600 and have some left overs.

 

[ziggy29]

Previously, using enough "jink box" RAM got me up to a few hundred MB. 8600s are somewhat RAM picky, though, and it would KP when I tried to boot into Tiger with the G4 installed(the 604 was fine). I dropped 8x128mb sticks from the above link in 8600 and it came right up with the G4 with no issues whatsoever. I used Xpostfacto to do a Tiger install as my drive with @lightbulfun 's kernel(to allow Tiger to run on 60x processors) died. The computer was decently perky, although anyone doing this should remember that you MUST run Sonnet Cache Enabler(freely available on their website) to have the computer see and use both the L2 and L3 cache. Failing to do so will result in poor performance. There's also a version for OS 9(mine was in the processor box on a floppy) that should be run also. System profiler doesn't report the speed correctly, but Metronome does.

Yeah, I've noticed some of the reports in system profiler are hit and miss. Seems like Apple's own built-in utilities aren't seeing the L2 cache. But when I use third party utilities and testing software -- Metronome and Gauge PRO on OS 9 and XBench 1.3 among others in Tiger -- I am regularly seeing the cache as enabled and running. I've run SonnetCache enabler on Tiger (which installs a kext for it) and the enabler software on pre-OS X (everything from 7.6.1 to 9.2.2) and I see the same thing everywhere: Apple's own System profiler won't report the cache but third party software does.

Would love to replace the G3/300/512K with a fast one (G4/700+/1MB) but will wait until someone isn't asking way too much for it. Not too long ago someone on eBay (from a Canadian seller) scored a G4/800 card AND a Sonnet PCI ATA/133 card for about US$75 which included shipping. Sad that I missed out on that one!

 

[ziggy29]

Anyway, here is what third party software is seeing for L2 cache, even when Apple utilities don't.

In OS 9. NewerTech's Gauge PRO reports this:

And in OS X, XBench 1.3 shows this:

So I'm pretty sure the cache is working. But it seems odd that Apple's own uitilities can't see it.

 

[ziggy29]

Small update: found a cheap G4/400 upgrade. I can definitely feel a difference in Tiger (in OS 9.x and before, not really, since even the G3/300 was overkill for most uses). Still in the market for a reasonably priced 700+ MHz G4 Sonnet Crescendo, since the only ones I've seen have had an asking price of $300+.

 

[blindpcguy]

man this is a sweet project if i wasn't a collage student with limited space id have a crap ton of these old macs and i wasn't even around when they were being used well ok i guys i was born in 96 button old enough to use a computer i got into macs in 2013 and love them especially the vintage ones its o cool seeing old projects like this one .

 

[ITguy2016]

man this is a sweet project if i wasn't a collage student with limited space id have a crap ton of these old macs and i wasn't even around when they were being used well ok i guys i was born in 96 button old enough to use a computer i got into macs in 2013 and love them especially the vintage ones its o cool seeing old projects like this one .

It's unfortunate as I think that era was a great time to be a Mac user. My first PowerPC system was a 6100/60 (first generation PPC) and then I quickly obtained an 8100/80 (first generation) which I used for quite some time. Mac OS was and, IMO, is the best OS I've ever used hands down...at least from a usability perspective. From a technical perspective it was nothing to write home about. Manual memory allocations, lack of protected memory, lack of PMT all made for a system which could easily be taken down. But surprisingly was reasonably stable. Enough so to make the Macintosh my primary system for many years as that "other" OS was very unstable.