Additional Details About Apple's New MacBook and MacBook Pro Keyboard Service Program

[clangers23]

So they're replacing a keyboard with an inherent design flaw with exactly the same unit? Aren't they delaying the inevitable again or are they hoping to spin this out beyond the terms of the extended return period and that as their laptops are sold on and become 2nd or 3rd hand owners will care less?

They could end up with a lot of re-returned units.

 

[hajime]

Long replacement time and repair over and over again. Users get tired and buy new MBP when they come out. Some just sell faulty units to Apple. More profits as a result.

 

[Queen6]

Long replacement time and repair over and over again. Users get tired and buy new MBP when they come out. Some just sell faulty units to Apple. More profits as a result.

Bigger concern is Apple is making rather a habit of such "oversights" GPU's, displays, batteries, keyboards. It's obviously not deliberate, equally indicates poor QA/QC practises and culture. Apple needs to get in the game, being premium provider doesn't just mean looking & feeling nice, it also means being reliable & performant...

Q-6

 

[az431]

Be prepared to go a week-plus without your MacBook

Perhaps Apple will give out loaner iPads to affected customers for the interim of the repair, since tablets are capable replacements for laptops according to Apple

Tim Cook said that "the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people," not that it would be a replacement for everyone.

 

[wackymacky]

Umm, so my 2016 MacBook pro has an intermittent problem with sticky keys. Happened a few weeks after I got it, and happens once in a while a key stops working until it is given a little jiggle and massage to get it working again.

Currently all keys are working. Do I risk sending it in for a repair? Will they fix it when not is a sporadic issue?

 

[tim0409]

Umm, so my 2016 MacBook pro has an intermittent problem with sticky keys. Happened a few weeks after I got it, and happens once in a while a key stops working until it is given a little jiggle and massage to get it working again.

Currently all keys are working. Do I risk sending it in for a repair? Will they fix it when not is a sporadic issue?

I had exactly the same issue and they replaced keyboard/top case/battery without any problems.

 

[Appleaker]

I think you misunderstood something here: iFixit found a difference in the keyboards between the 2016 and 2017 models of the MacBook. The 2016 MacBook still had the original, first generation butterfly mechanism. All MacBooks and MacBook Pros that came after that – and that includes the first butterfly keyboard MBPs released in 2016 – had the second generation butterfly mechanism. iFixit's teardown of the 2017 13" MBP found no differences in the keyboard mechanism to the previous model.

No, I think you are misunderstanding something here. I am not talking about butterfly 1 vs butterfly 2 in the 12” MacBook, I am talking about the slight tweaks between 2016 and 2017 MBPs, in line with the point in the article.
You clearly think I don’t know what I’m talking about but please do some research before replying.
[doublepost=1529959908][/doublepost]

Do you have a link to the teardown where it says this?

I have just looked and it didn’t appear to be in the teardown page, but they mention is in this teardown summary article:

https://ifixit.org/blog/9185/2017-apple-laptop/

If iFixits CEO did say that, perhaps he was taking about a significant change (i.e. the actual mechanism) or the feel of the keyboard.

 

[vendettabass]

So I have a 2015 12" MacBook (1st generation) with the same sticky key issue - did anyone send their similar unit in for repair to receive gen 2 (2016/17) of the butterfly mechanism?

Thanks!

 

[Tech198]

"If a key press is not recognized, key presses feel abnormal or sticky, or keys are loose or missing, Apple has instructed its authorized service providers to clean or replace the affected keycaps if possible."

This is basically the standard repair of a Macbook service anyway from food/drinks..... to clean the keyboard...

Apple never gives you back a Mac in the "same condition' it was as when it went in... They replaced half of the missing screws as well... Not a once off, and its happened three or four times.

 

[Glassed Silver]

Glad I've avoided this mess entirely. The MacBook Pros lately seem gimmicky and prone to issues. Hardware advancements from Intel have stagnated as well. I hope to see some meaningful updates in the next year as Apple begins working more closely with in-house professionals and perhaps takes on a bigger role in hardware development.

This is a massive management problem.

Any hardware designer worth their Apple payroll money will have warned by yelling at the top of their lungs, but management wanted a slimmer sleeker MBP.

Those in-house professionals will be working for that kind of management. Unless heads roll of course.

That being said, the way Apple treat cases like these will likely not change. Widespread issue? Ride it out until you're forced or pressured legally to respond in a "generous" manner.

This is your premium brand manufacturer with decades of experience building desktops, laptops and other prosumer and professional gear. They've always gotten away with this tiptoeing technique and what would interrupt that series? A change of heart? Not as long as the stock keeps going up up up.

That's one of the many reasons I'll never understand this disconnected love for Apple's success. I mean on some level I do, but this hard-on people without stock get is beyond me.

Every ATH is another sign to them to not change ANY of the things that reap them profits at your cost when it'd be perfectly reasonable to expect better.

When I say the company's going downhill I don't mean stock or market share, I'm talking their supposed values and actual competitive advantages that get fed to the walled garden keeping anyone in just good enough.

It's lazy and complacent.

Glassed Silver:mac

edit: fixed doubling

 

[lec0rsaire]

This should provide people with extra piece of mind. I believe people are better off if they just replace the whole top case instead of fixing individual keys but it’s obviously at their discretion or depending how bad the problem is.

The MBPs that will be released this year should be a little bit more attractive. The 13” model in particular will be getting a quad core i5 with hyper threading. This is inevitable. This provides near previous gen 15” performance except for the slower Coffee Lake clock speeds. The 15” should get 6 cores but for anyone with an older 13” this is finally a more than worthy upgrade IMO.

 

[Queen6]

This is a massive management problem.

Any hardware designer worth their Apple payroll money will have warned by yelling at the top of their lungs, but management wanted a slimmer sleeker MBP.

Those in-house professionals will be working for that kind of management. Unless heads roll of course.

That being said, the way Apple treat cases like these will likely not change. Widespread issue? Ride it out until you're forced or pressured legally to respond in a "generous" manner.

This is your premium brand manufacturer with decades of experience building laptops, laptops and other prosumer and professional gear. They've always gotten away with this tiptoeing technique and what would interrupt that series? A change of heart? Not as long as the stock keeps going up up up.

That's one of the many reasons I'll never understand this disconnected love for Apple's success. I mean on some level I do, but this hard-on people without stock get is beyond me.

Every ATH is another sign to them to not change ANY of the things that reap them profits at your cost when it'd be perfectly reasonable to expect better.

When I say the company's going downhill I don't mean stock or market share, I'm talking their supposed values and actual competitive advantages that get fed to the walled garden keeping anyone in just good enough.

It's lazy and complacent.

Glassed Silver:mac

Should be sticky'd over and over, and then some...

Q-6

 

[AdriftAtlas]

They're probably replacing these defective keyboards with the same defective keyboard. History is repeating itself.

I own a 2011 MBP 17" that has a GPU that unsolders itself. Apple replaced it under a repair program when the laptop was four years old. Three years later the exact same symptoms appeared except now the laptop is "vintage". One would think that they replaced the motherboard with something more reliable, but no they replaced it with the same flawed board that failed quicker. I am still limping along with this broken laptop with the AMD chip disabled. Knowing how Apple will "fix" this, there is no way I am buying a laptop with a known critical flaw.

If I could run Mac OS legitimately on a generic PC I would never buy a MBP again. They may look pretty but they're underpowered, unrepairable, unupgradable, and problematic.

 

[iMacC2D]

They appear to be replacing the defective keyboards with the same part. There was a part number substitution to replace the 2016 keyboards with the 2017 parts, but the 2017 part number has remained unchanged since the model was introduced. There's been no part substitutions since, including after the introduction of the repair program.

2016

13" 2016 Function Keys 2TBT3, C17SJ81VGVC1 (iFixit S/N)
Top Case with Battery, Space Gray, ANSI - P/N 661-05114

Substituted to 661-07946
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-07946


13" 2016 Touch Bar 4TBT3, C02SL0SWGTFJ (iFixit S/N)
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-05333

Substituted to 661-07950
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-07950


15" 2016 Touch Bar 4TBT3, C02SPYEDGTFL (iFixit S/N)
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-06377

Substituted to 661-07954
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-07954


2017

13" 2017 Function Keys 2TBT3, ************ (S/N Withheld)
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-07946

No Part Substitution (Current 26-06-2018)


13" 2017 Touch Bar 4TBT3, ************ (S/N Withheld)
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-07950

No Part Substitution (Current 26-06-2018)


15" 2017 Touch Bar 4TBT3, ************ (S/N Withheld)
Top Case with Battery, ANSI, Space Gray - P/N 661-07954

No Part Substitution (Current 26-06-2018)

And I suspect the difference in feel between the 2016 and 2017 keyboards is that Apple started installing plastic shims under the keycap to damp out some of the noise. The switch mechanism itself however likely remains unchanged.

Some keys on the MacBook Pro (2016) may experience a loud clicking noise after the computer has warmed up. To correct this, it is necessary to replace the existing keycap with a new keycap and insert a small plastic shim on the nub of the new keycap.

 

[bizzle]

And this is why the MacBook Pro/Apple service is not Pro level anymore. 5-7 days without a business machine just to fix a sodding repeating keypress??

Blame Apple for making it incredibly complicated to replace the top case, not just the fact the keyboard is trash. I'm a 10 year experienced ACMT and I can tell you, it's a real pain in the ass. Since the late 2008 MB/MBP Apple has been making it more and more complicated to perform a top case replacement. Rough count in my head it's 40 screws of multiple sizes just to take off the bottom case and the screen, which are the first two things you have to remove to replace the top case. You still have a ways to go after that. It's an extremely involved repair.

 

[Tech198]

They're probably replacing these defective keyboards with the same defective keyboard. History is repeating itself.

I own a 2011 MBP 17" that has a GPU that unsolders itself. Apple replaced it under a repair program when the laptop was four years old. Three years later the exact same symptoms appeared except now the laptop is "vintage". One would think that they replaced the motherboard with something more reliable, but no they replaced it with the same flawed board that failed quicker. I am still limping along with this broken laptop with the AMD chip disabled. Knowing how Apple will "fix" this, there is no way I am buying a laptop with a known critical flaw.

If I could run Mac OS legitimately on a generic PC I would never buy a MBP again. They may look pretty but they're underpowered, unrepairable, unupgradable, and problematic.

Anythings possible, but i doubt Apple would lie to customers. If its defective, that would quickly be known to the public.. On the other hand, moving to PC, just because "Mac's are no longer repairable", that sounds like good enough reason for anyone. If you don't go for laptops they are.

 

[Lone Deranger]

Blame Apple for making it incredibly complicated to replace the top case, not just the fact the keyboard is trash. I'm a 10 year experienced ACMT and I can tell you, it's a real pain in the ass. Since the late 2008 MB/MBP Apple has been making it more and more complicated to perform a top case replacement. Rough count in my head it's 40 screws of multiple sizes just to take off the bottom case and the screen, which are the first two things you have to remove to replace the top case. You still have a ways to go after that. It's an extremely involved repair.

Oh I am! It's the second time in just 3-4 years they have designed themselves into a corner. At least they admitted it with the trash can Mac Pro. They have yet to do so for this design fiasco (though I seriously doubt they have the courage).
Whoever's responsible at Apple for the concept that professional/power products should adhere to the same design philosophy as consumer products/toys should be relegated to a customer service help-desk.

 

[827538]

My problem with this is my Macbook's keyboard currently works as intended.

But at some point I will have issues with keys again. I'd like it if they just replaced the keyboard so I would stop having these problems.
[doublepost=1529969699][/doublepost]

Yeah. They got rid of the perfect keyboard to save a millimeter or so. Not worth it at all.

I owned a couple of Retina Macbook Pros. The keys would wobble - as in if you pressed one corner only that corner would go down creating a squishy feel.

While the new keys might lack travel they feel far firmer and more solid.

Personally the second gen butterfly keys feel pretty good to me. I can type pretty rapidly with them. It just takes some getting used to.

 

[TTTedP]

And this is why the MacBook Pro/Apple service is not Pro level anymore. 5-7 days without a business machine just to fix a sodding repeating keypress?? Just how does Apple expect that works in a professional environment?

Great timing! My 2016 tbMBP stopped charging over the weekend. A quick search shows it to be an irreparable issue (internet says bad battery cell?) and needing full laptop replacement. We'll see what the Genius bar says but I couldn't get an appointment for 3 days! And no telling how long for a solution after that.

It's Monday and I have to work so I am quickly scrambling to set up a Windows PC. With Lenovo or Dell you can get next day on-site support for the same price as an Apple Care plan. I feel we are all suffering from Apple's sales success.

 

[Jacoblee23]

Unpopular opinion incoming: Now that I have gotten used to the keyboard on my 2017 MBP and 2017 MB, I prefer it to the keyboard on my 2017 MacBook Air. I make a lot more mistakes on my air than I do my MBP and MacBook for some reason. At first thought I hated the new keyboard, but I've had both machines for about a year now and changed my mind. That is unfortunate about the keyboard issues though.

 

[Val-kyrie]

So they're replacing a keyboard with an inherent design flaw with exactly the same unit? Aren't they delaying the inevitable again or are they hoping to spin this out beyond the terms of the extended return period and that as their laptops are sold on and become 2nd or 3rd hand owners will care less?

They could end up with a lot of re-returned units.

Correct. Apple just keeps recycling bad parts / parts with bad design.

I went through FOUR iPhone 6 Plus replacements in two years due to bending, battery expansion warping the case, and the Touch Disease. I sold the last replacement before it developed problems.

They appear to be replacing the defective keyboards with the same part. There was a part number substitution to replace the 2016 keyboards with the 2017 parts, but the 2017 part number has remained unchanged since the model was introduced. There's been no part substitutions since, including after the introduction of the repair program.




And I suspect the difference in feel between the 2016 and 2017 keyboards is that Apple started installing plastic shims under the keycap to damp out some of the noise. The switch mechanism itself however likely remains unchanged.

Spot on. The difference between the Gen 1 and 2 butterfly keyboards is the dome cap under the keys. However, the design is still problematic.

As Kemal previously wrote:

metal domes make bad switches for keyboards. They become oxidized in the slightest and stop working properly leading to no contact or excessive bounce/repeating.

If you would like to read a more extensive take on the 2d Gen keyboard design, read about it here!

 

[DanBig]

https://ifixit.org/blog/9185/2017-apple-laptop/

The only real change, beyond fan coloration, seems to address the lackluster keyboard action from last year’s MacBook. Users now inherit the more-responsive, second-gen butterfly key switches already found in last year’s MacBook Pro with Touch Bar.

Here’s another:
https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/08/fixit-2017-macbook-and-macbook-pro-teardown/

IFIXIT is comparing the 2017 MacBook and 2017 MacBook Pro. Not the 2016 Vs 2017 MacBook Pro's from your links.

 

[69650]

Are they going to fix the problem and change the keyboard design?

 

[zakarhino]

I'm in the minority here but I actually prefer the new keyboard over the old one, I feel like I can type faster with this one because it's a lot more tactile -- reminds me of my mechanical keyboard. What I don't like is the failure rate, I've had more than one key get mushy/stuck before and be unresponsive; I've had to lift up the keys and try cleaning them out manually to get them working again. It's a pain in my you-know-what and it's disappointing to see such terrible quality control from a (almost) trillion dollar company.

 

[cashville2400]

I am just glad that they are at least trying to address this. I wanted a Macbook Pro but ended up buying a behind the times Macbook Air, only because it was very reliable.