After 3 years finally decided against a Mac Pro

[GoCubsGo]

The point of my post was really a sort of signing off as I've been hanging around these forums for a while.

Ah so basically you're just telling people you're "leaving" an Internet site? Okay.
It sounds like 4 cores is for you and probably even too much.
Enjoy your new pc.

 

[Tesselator]

So what ever the quantities sold, a profit was made.

Oh yeah! They made the bucks!!! To be sure!

Granted, given the current economic situation, the sales quanitity would be expected to drop somewhat. Then there's the currency exchange rates, increased shipping costs, and labor costs have been on the rise in China. But I'd need to see the math that justifies that much of an increase.

Well, if they're looking at the M5 I think it is (now privately calculated) then they're actually underpriced by a huge percentage. What news and economic advisors never say out loud is just how much the dollar has been devalued. This is calculated primarily by how much is printed and that's mostly determined by how much the government spends. Bush spent more than any other president in history and Obama has ALREADY spent more than all of the other presidents combined - actually. The dollar is being held together by a network of lies and false numbers. If Apple is looking at that or is thinking that that network of lies and deceit is soon to tumble then that would explain it.

Then look at the other vendor's pricing. Their systems are made in the same countries, etc., so they're in the same situation as Apple as far as per unit costs. So until I see the math proving otherwise, it still comes down to an increase in margins, as I can't think of anything else that's realistic.

Yeah, actually I'm pretty sure Apple gets the very best deals - so they're probably getting it cheaper than everyone else.

I'll stick to my Harley Davidson!

If you don't oppose some of the carbon bills currently in the house very soon all Harley's will be street illegal. I read this in American Iron magazine recently.

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

Maybe, but I doubt Apple over-estimated the sales volume on the previous models. If they had, they would have posted losses for those machines each quarter. IIRC, this didn't happen. So what ever the quantities sold, a profit was made.

Granted, given the current economic situation, the sales quanitity would be expected to drop somewhat. Then there's the currency exchange rates, increased shipping costs, and labor costs have been on the rise in China. But I'd need to see the math that justifies that much of an increase.

Then look at the other vendor's pricing. Their systems are made in the same countries, etc., so they're in the same situation as Apple as far as per unit costs. So until I see the math proving otherwise, it still comes down to an increase in margins, as I can't think of anything else that's realistic.

Unfortunately Dell followed Apple's lead for the Octo core pricing. Their machines are a fair chunk cheaper but they could have been a hell of a lot cheaper. It almost feels like Apple now gets Intel's processors early and if they can get away with selling things with such profit margins then other manufacturers follow suit. Nevertheless, the fact that Apple's increased its profit margin on entry level 8 core Mac Pros by $1000 is just plain wrong.

I agree that they should have a cheaper workstation graphics card as an option. They could easily put a relatively entry level workstation card in and price it similarly to the 4870. My guess is that Apple didn't want to confuse their line up. They hate having overlapping products and so wouldn't wantto have two similarly priced cards for users to choose from. You'd think they'd trust Pro users to know the difference but hey ho. The fact that they don't even have a BTO Quadro card is really poor show too.

 

[Plutonius]

Nevertheless, the fact that Apple's increased its profit margin on entry level 8 core Mac Pros by $1000 is just plain wrong.

The one fact that can't be argued is that the cost / performance of the 09 Mac Pro is worse then the previous version. On the other hand, I would like to see your proof that Apple has increased it's profit margin on the 8 core Mac Pros by $1000. (and please don't list the Intel suggested pricing on the processors. Nobody knows what discounts Apple was getting on the previous gen processors or what the processors actually cost Apple.)

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

The one fact that can't be argued is that the cost / performance of the 09 Mac Pro is worse then the previous version. On the other hand, I would like to see your proof that Apple has increased it's profit margin on the 8 core Mac Pros by $1000. (and please don't list the Intel suggested pricing on the processors. Nobody knows what discounts Apple was getting on the previous gen processors or what the processors actually cost Apple.)

Its reasonable to assume that Apple is getting a similar discount on Nehalem processors as it was getting with the previous generation processors from Intel. Look up the processor prices yourself and you'll quickly see that, assuming the cost of the logic board, psu, hard drives, fans, daughter card, superdrive and aluminum are relatively similar as before (a very reasonable assumption), Apple's profit margin has increased substantially. Unless, of course, Intel gave Apple approximately a ~65% discount over what they charge everyone else for 1000 units and now aren't giving them any discount whatsoever. A far more likely discount figure is about 10% max, and Apple likely get the same discount now.

 

[Toronto Mike]

Well, if they're looking at the M5 I think it is (now privately calculated) then they're actually underpriced by a huge percentage. What news and economic advisors never say out loud is just how much the dollar has been devalued. This is calculated primarily by how much is printed and that's mostly determined by how much the government spends. Bush spent more than any other president in history and Obama has ALREADY spent more than all of the other presidents combined - actually. The dollar is being held together by a network of lies and false numbers. If Apple is looking at that or is thinking that that network of lies and deceit is soon to tumble then that would explain it.
.

Here is a site that some of you might find interesting because these current price increases by Apple might be the opening shots of a hyper-inflation scenario that is starting because of the deterioration of the American dollar:

http://www.marketskeptics.com/2009/01/hyperinflation-will-begin-in-china-and.html

Personally I am convinced that this scenario is unfolding as we speak. If you are on the fence right now of purchasing a new system, you might be wise to make your mind up soon and spend your dollars while there is still some purchasing power left. Apple, out of self preservation, would have to dramatically increase their prices even more in such an environment - enough that it would make your head spin. Either that, or they will be forced to finally make the mid-tower because that might be the only machine that people will be able to afford. Even that would be insanely expensive within a hyper-inflationary environment.


Mike

 

[surflordca]

VW is engineered superior to american cars. its more economic (like apple computers advertise to be), its more ecologic (like apple computers claim to be) and some VW Golfs last 2,5 million miles (like people claim apple computers have a good lifespan). bad comparison, id say.
and on the side note, i friggin hate VW's and most of german cars in general.
and i dont like cadillacs either.
if you ask me, VW's today are overdesigned and look outdated in 2 years, kitch perhaps, caddies rely on their "tradition" and look clunky and crate-like.
hope i didnt offend anybody, you can drive whatever you like, thats why they make so many cars, different taste different car.
some people are happy driving a wheel wagon instead of an aircraft.
nah, just kidding

Who cares. It was only a example for figure of speech...

 

[POLOgt]

I'm approaching the end of four years as a mature student and have been almost buying a Mac Pro (on student discount) all that time but having waited for Nehalem the 09 Mac Pro prices have finally done for me.

The 06 Mac Pro was well priced but "only 4 cores" so I waited for 08 and this had eight cores but RAM was very expensive and so I waited and then Nehalem was almost out and then when it came it was a major disappointment, very expensive and not enough RAM slots.

So I've finally ordered a Dell Precision T3500, it may lack the style of the Mac but it is a lot cheaper (for a one processor 4 core system) and has many more options (I'm getting a 3.2GHz processor and 12GB or RAM and an FX3800 Quadro). (To compare prices on a 2.93GHz system with a basic graphics card and 6GB of RAM from Crucial and 3 years support etc the Mac Pro is £2,614 full price, £2,083 with student discount but the Dell T3500 is only £1400.)

So I'm not buying a Mac Pro for the same reason I've never taken up skiing - I'm afraid that I'll enjoy it too much and it is just too expensive a habit to acquire. It is a shame that I've already bought a couple of books on Cocoa programming!

Perhaps in a couple of years I'll buy a Mac mini or a mac book or if I continue to get an education discount as a teacher I may succumb in five years time.

I don't understand why you posted this

Sounds more like a blog entry then a forum topic

 

[Plutonius]

Its reasonable to assume that Apple is getting a similar discount on Nehalem processors as it was getting with the previous generation processors from Intel. Look up the processor prices yourself and you'll quickly see that, assuming the cost of the logic board, psu, hard drives, fans, daughter card, superdrive and aluminum are relatively similar as before (a very reasonable assumption), Apple's profit margin has increased substantially. Unless, of course, Intel gave Apple approximately a ~65% discount over what they charge everyone else for 1000 units and now aren't giving them any discount whatsoever. A far more likely discount figure is about 10% max, and Apple likely get the same discount now.

That's the problem. You are making assumptions and stating them as fact. Stating that the price of the 09 Mac Pro has gone up is a fact. Stating that Apple's margins have gone up is an assumption.

 

[VirtualRain]

I don't understand why you posted this

Sounds more like a blog entry then a forum topic

LOL... I'm not sure what's more pathetic, the fact this thread exists, or the fact that it has 30+ responses. We are clearly desperate for something to talk about here!

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

That's the problem. You are making assumptions and stating them as fact. Stating that the price of the 09 Mac Pro has gone up is a fact. Stating that Apple's margins have gone up is an assumption.

An assumption based on methodical analysis and using factual processor pricing with reasonable assumptions as to the costs of undisclosed parts. Its really not very complicated or far out maths, its just some plain simple numbers added and subtracted.

 

[Infrared]

Ah so basically you're just telling people you're "leaving" an Internet site? Okay.
It sounds like 4 cores is for you and probably even too much.
Enjoy your new pc.

I do smile when I read these elitist comments. I suspect that
most of the Mac Pro users around here are either home users
or (vaguely pejorative) "prosumers".

There is a good reason for this. To a very large extent, Apple
doesn't provide what many serious workstation users require.
What I have in mind are such things as rapid on-site support,
a decent range of workstation class graphics options, etc etc.
We are talking about the truly serious types here, not those
who merely aspire to be such.

 

[Dr.Pants]

Well, for some slightly far-out maths, the profit margin is a derivative of a profit function - maximize the derivative of the profit function, and then that's the target amount of units a company want to sell. This is an over simplification.

To try and make things more clear for the calculus uninitiated, the derivative can be considered the change in the slope of a graph. Therefore, the global maximum point on the derivative is the point where the greatest profit-per-unit comes into play, and that is what companies want to hit. Mathmatically, the global max may not exist (negative produced units or more MacPros then people, as graphs just go on and on), but there generally is a max point that a company wants to hit.

So, perhaps Apple saw that while the demand was high, producing a huge amount volumetrically to satisfy that demand would actually make them lose money.... So the pricing reflects that. Potentially.

 

[Infrared]

I agree that they should have a cheaper workstation graphics card as an option. They could easily put a relatively entry level workstation card in and price it similarly to the 4870. My guess is that Apple didn't want to confuse their line up. They hate having overlapping products and so wouldn't wantto have two similarly priced cards for users to choose from. You'd think they'd trust Pro users to know the difference but hey ho. The fact that they don't even have a BTO Quadro card is really poor show too.

It kind of feels to me as though Apple want a workstation to
complete their lineup, to show a certain level of seriousness,
but they lack commitment when it comes to the details.

More and more Apple target the general consumer, the home
user. They no longer try to capture a serious section of the
business market, which was once their aim.

Consequently, the Mac Pro sits in an uneasy position between
being a consumer oriented offering and being a true workstation.
It would require relatively little effort to rectify that, I imagine.
But I don't think Apple's heart is in it.

 

[Dr.Pants]

It kind of feels to me as though Apple want a workstation to
complete their lineup, to show a certain level of seriousness,
but they lack commitment when it comes to the details.

Seconded. Great idea to soldier SATA ports on the motherboard for the lemmings. And minidisplayport, since it is so hard to screw in a DVI plug.

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

Well, for some slightly far-out maths, the profit margin is a derivative of a profit function - maximize the derivative of the profit function, and then that's the target amount of units a company want to sell. This is an over simplification.

To try and make things more clear for the calculus uninitiated, the derivative can be considered the change in the slope of a graph. Therefore, the global maximum point on the derivative is the point where the greatest profit-per-unit comes into play, and that is what companies want to hit. Mathmatically, the global max may not exist (negative produced units or more MacPros then people, as graphs just go on and on), but there generally is a max point that a company wants to hit.

So, perhaps Apple saw that while the demand was high, producing a huge amount volumetrically to satisfy that demand would actually make them lose money.... So the pricing reflects that. Potentially.

Quite. Since the actual profit that Apple makes on a Mac Pro is much harder to estimate than the profit change, it might very well be that Apple has now doubled its profits on each Mac Pro sold. So they only need to sell half as many to make the same money - that could be beneficial the way the economy's going.

It kind of feels to me as though Apple want a workstation to
complete their lineup, to show a certain level of seriousness,
but they lack commitment when it comes to the details.

More and more Apple target the general consumer, the home
user. They no longer try to capture a serious section of the
business market, which was once their aim.

Consequently, the Mac Pro sits in an uneasy position between
being a consumer oriented offering and being a true workstation.
It would require relatively little effort to rectify that, I imagine.
But I don't think Apple's heart is in it.

Apple's probably getting ready to release a 30" iMac which is what it thinks all the prosumers will want instead leaving only the people who are purchasing off someone else's budget to buy a Mac Pro.

 

[nanofrog]

Well, if they're looking at the M5 I think it is (now privately calculated) then they're actually under priced by a huge percentage. What news and economic advisor's never say out loud is just how much the dollar has been devalued. This is calculated primarily by how much is printed and that's mostly determined by how much the government spends. Bush spent more than any other president in history and Obama has ALREADY spent more than all of the other presidents combined - actually. The dollar is being held together by a network of lies and false numbers. If Apple is looking at that or is thinking that that network of lies and deceit is soon to tumble then that would explain it.

Ugh...Don't remind me.

Yeah, actually I'm pretty sure Apple gets the very best deals - so they're probably getting it cheaper than everyone else.

I'd expect so, as they order more of the same part than other system vendors.

Unfortunately Dell followed Apple's lead for the Octo core pricing. Their machines are a fair chunk cheaper but they could have been a hell of a lot cheaper. It almost feels like Apple now gets Intel's processors early and if they can get away with selling things with such profit margins then other manufacturers follow suit. Nevertheless, the fact that Apple's increased its profit margin on entry level 8 core Mac Pros by $1000 is just plain wrong.

Unfortunately. A sees B getting away with it, and follows suit.

I agree that they should have a cheaper workstation graphics card as an option. They could easily put a relatively entry level workstation card in and price it similarly to the 4870. My guess is that Apple didn't want to confuse their line up. They hate having overlapping products and so wouldn't want to have two similarly priced cards for users to choose from. You'd think they'd trust Pro users to know the difference but hey ho. The fact that they don't even have a BTO Quadro card is really poor show too.

Meh... I think Dr. Pants nailed this one.

Its reasonable to assume that Apple is getting a similar discount on Nehalem processors as it was getting with the previous generation processors from Intel. Look up the processor prices yourself and you'll quickly see that, assuming the cost of the logic board, psu, hard drives, fans, daughter card, superdrive and aluminum are relatively similar as before (a very reasonable assumption), Apple's profit margin has increased substantially. Unless, of course, Intel gave Apple approximately a ~65% discount over what they charge everyone else for 1000 units and now aren't giving them any discount whatsoever. A far more likely discount figure is about 10% max, and Apple likely get the same discount now.

This really is reasonable indeed.

It kind of feels to me as though Apple want a workstation to
complete their lineup, to show a certain level of seriousness,
but they lack commitment when it comes to the details.

More and more Apple target the general consumer, the home
user. They no longer try to capture a serious section of the
business market, which was once their aim.

Consequently, the Mac Pro sits in an uneasy position between
being a consumer oriented offering and being a true workstation.
It would require relatively little effort to rectify that, I imagine.
But I don't think Apple's heart is in it.

Well put.

 

[Plutonius]

An assumption based on methodical analysis and using factual processor pricing with reasonable assumptions as to the costs of undisclosed parts. Its really not very complicated or far out maths, its just some plain simple numbers added and subtracted.

It's absolutely not just plain simple numbers added and subtracted. Could you please publish Apple's classified manufacturing bill of materials showing what Apple is currently paying and show us Apple's manufacturing cost and overhead (including sales, etc). The profit margin is after all related cost. Until you show us the total cost that Apples currently paying, your profit margin number is a total assumption.

I would like to make an assumption of my own. Dell's cost for their line is not low enough to greatly eat into the Mac Pro sales. If things were as cheap as you claim they were, the Dell line would be priced way below Apple's Mac Pros price. Since Dell's is not, I can make the assumption that you are wrong and the workstation total cost is much higher then you think.

See how assumptions work....

 

[Dr.Pants]

Personally, now that I think about it, the 2009 MacPro has been designed to keep the Apple consumer in mind - not the power user. Let's say I want to do an internal RAID in the 2009 MacPro. I am limited to the drive bays for an internal RAID unless I want to do completely new HDD brackets to make space for the SATA/SAS port. Someday this may change - Apple may be starting a great thing by hard-wiring the HDDs (probably in parallel) with unused PCIE lanes on physical connectors to advance how RAID is used. The chances of this, however, are unlikely.

Furthermore, MiniDisplayPort. I am all about the promotion of the DisplayPort standard, including the fact that licensing costs for it are or were free (correct me if I am wrong) just to get the standard accepted. So, why doesn't Apple just shove in a DisplayPort module instead of their current new port? I remember now, "proprietary" technology in the physical form factor! Licensing costs for their own data-transmission standard and a monopoly on it. Of course, there are other upcoming options that do not use MDP, so when I do get a MacPro and that standard is around, I will most likely put my GT120 somewhere safe as a backup card and use the upcoming nVidia-200-series card or whatever option happens to be available.

[/rant]

I am not saying the 2009 MacPro is a bad machine, Apple just happens to be limiting it. However, my MDP rant seems like a moot point - The only monitors I can find with DisplayPort are Dells . And none of the laptops that have a lot of power have adopted the standard, either.

But I enjoy the concept. Think about how awesome it would be not to deal with the ****** scalars on monitors anymore!

EDIT - back on topic, there's also functions to determine how many and when Apple has to get parts for building MacPros - despite the large order size, it costs Apple to keep the processors it adopted early (on the concept that space costs money); I can't remember how to do it off the top of my head, but they have a projected number of how many MacPros they will sell in a year - obviously it is not smart or cost-effective to buy all their parts at launch. Their sales could completely suck or they just have wasted space. So they have to continuously stock to keep from getting ahead; then transportation costs, etc, are factored in. Any financial analyst I meet I generally feel sorry for, as they have to go through painful maths that often involve large numbers that could kill their resume.

 

[Topper]

.
To me the only good reason to get a PC is for gaming.
.
As a previous poster already said, "Whatever floats your boat." Good luck with your PC.
.

LOL... I'm not sure what's more pathetic, the fact this thread exists, or the fact that it has 30+ responses. We are clearly desperate for something to talk about here!

Now you're making me feel bad.
.

 

[Salavat23]

You have to remember, you get what you pay for. You paid for a Dell and that is what you got. Some people are happy driving a VW instead of a Cadillac.

I'd drive a VW any day over a Cadillac.

 

[nanofrog]

EDIT - back on topic, there's also functions to determine how many and when Apple has to get parts for building MacPros - despite the large order size, it costs Apple to keep the processors it adopted early (on the concept that space costs money); I can't remember how to do it off the top of my head, but they have a projected number of how many MacPros they will sell in a year - obviously it is not smart or cost-effective to buy all their parts at launch. Their sales could completely suck or they just have wasted space. So they have to continuously stock to keep from getting ahead; then transportation costs, etc, are factored in. Any financial analyst I meet I generally feel sorry for, as they have to go through painful maths that often involve large numbers that could kill their resume.

Just In Time (JIT) Scheduling or Six Sigma might bring up what you're thinking of.

JITS isn't that easy in practice though, and has a habit of not working that well. For example, you need a certain component on a specific day to maintain production. It's not going to make it, or they can't get it at the price they want. So the decision to order a different part is made. The replacement component is now within desired budget, but doesn't meet specifications of the original design. QC problems can, and usually do result. In the end, it costs more money for warranty repair/replacement.

Or production gets held up, and money is lost on people/equipment sitting there doing nothing. Again, it costs money.

What's the answer they choose?
Number one, and shorten the warranty length to avoid the backlash. Hint: Products with 90 day warranties.

I don't see the fault with the JITS itself, but rather associate it with greed causing bad decisions that pile up (cascade failure). I do think it's possible to use it with success, but I've not really seen it.

 

[Genghis Khan]

You have to remember, you get what you pay for. You paid for a Dell and that is what you got. Some people are happy driving a VW instead of a Cadillac.

i'm pretty sure those people have no taste

unless i've missed something, all american cars are designed with a planned obsolescence...which explains why they feel so tinny

it also explains the current *cough* bankruptcy *cough* of GM...and how the european companies are in a position to buy crumbs of GM and Chrysler...

EDIT: Go check out the VW Passat CC...i doubt there's a more stylish/luxurious cadillac out there...

LOL... I'm not sure what's more pathetic, the fact this thread exists, or the fact that it has 30+ responses. We are clearly desperate for something to talk about here!

not even that, the slightly off-topic car banter is more interesting than this thread

 

[VirtualRain]

not even that, the slightly off-topic car banter is more interesting than this thread

The mods should just rename this thread "The off-topic Lounge"

BTW (I might as well get in on it! )...

Dr. Pants, I like your assessment of Apple's positioning. Has Apple completely conceded the corporate market to M$?!

 

[Tesselator]

I'd drive a VW any day over a Cadillac.

Not me. VW is Hitler's company (really). Cadillac was formed from the remnants of the Henry Ford Company when Henry Ford departed along with several of his key partners and the company was dissolved. Oh, wait, Ford was a Hitler sympathizer and supporter. OK, never mind, same difference. I wouldn't drive either. I'll stick with my Audi. Oh, wait, Audi is part of the Volkswagen Group. OK, screw it: Chevy then!