'After Steve' Examines the Tensions That Led to Jony Ive's Departure From Apple

[sideshowuniqueuser]

iPhone is Apple's current Macintosh. It pays the bills, but Apple Watch is what's next. And it's gotten progressively better with each iteration. Ive's fashion accessory is the future of the company and Cook knows it.

Health is a huge seller. A Watch that can measure your blood sugar? blood pressure? Alert you when you're getting sick? Detect air pollutants (Pollen detected. Did you take your allergy medicine?) You're going to have health insurance companies wanting to subsidize this thing and pass it out with every new enrollee.

It's also going to be a next generation communication device. AirPods, VR Glasses/Contacts, Holograms, Projection devices, etc.

Everything rumored to be coming is going to enhance Watch.

But they're going to have to get their services game together.

Maybe. Detecting all those things isn't something you need an overpriced, dorky, watch for. Especially if you want accurate testing. I look forward to the day of cheap, quality, accurate, home testing kits of such things (with a USB cable or Bluetooth or wifi that connects to my Mac), but have no desire for a dorky Apple watch that screams "loser" to the world, has inaccurate testing, and charges YABS (Yet Another Bloody Subscription) for the info.

iPhones still dominate revenue. Everyone needs a phone, and iPhones are quality and expensive. Like, really expensive. Like, it's cheaper to buy a Mac Mini or MBA than an iPhone Pro. They've plateaued in revenue growth though, as basically the market is saturated, and you no longer need to buy the latest and greatest. In fact, an iPhone SE does everything you need just perfectly fine. Anything more premium than that and you're basically buying prestige.

Apple Watches will never be an accessory that everyone needs. And they aren't even close to the price of an iPhone. They've also plateaued in revenue growth.

Macs are not for everyone, but are pricey. I just ordered a 16" MBP M1 Pro 32GB 2TB, and if you look up the price for that beast, you'll see what I mean, it makes the eyes water compared to the price of an Apple Watch.

iPads are similar, not for everyone, and have had their peak a decade ago.

Services are the big growth item at the moment. It's a bit unclear exactly what is included in services though. Is iPhone app store revenue included, for example, or is that included in iPhone revenue? The question also remains, when will services revenue plateau?

Regardless, fun discussion, but zero to do with form vs function.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

And they are selling like hot potatoes, maybe function over form is more appreciated???

Yeah for sure they are selling like hot potatoes. We had a 5 year drought of MBPs that weren't tragically flawed by form pushing function into the wilderness. And yeah, I am one of the buyers, finally relieved that functional Macs are back, holding onto a 2015 Retina MBP through all those years (and using it all day long, day in, day out, for work and play), and now finally ordering a 16" MBP M1 Pro 32GB 2TB. And even though they are a bit bland and boxy, they still have the basic, beautiful unibody, wonderful keyboard, and glassy slick trackpad design of the MBPs ever since the first Unibody design. It's timeless. But it's not quite beautiful, there's something subtle that's missing, that little bit of pop, that takes your breath away.

And similarly, I love the iPhone 12 and 13, because I've always thought the iPhone 4 was the best ever iPhone design. Both beautiful and functional. But it's like, hmm, it's the freaking iPhone 4, wtf.

So, imagine if we still had Jony Ive pumping out beautiful design, but with someone strong like Steve to make sure the form doesn't override the function. Or imagine if Johny Srouji, the man that brought us these wonderful 14/16" M1 MBP's, had Ive working under his command, instead of equal to or above his command. If Srouji could say, right, here's the non-negotiable parameters you have to work with, now make it pop. And same with the iPhone, Srouji again giving Ive the parameters of the iPhone to work with, and let him run free with coming up with a new external design. Srouji with the power and will to override and make sure the hardware remains perfectly functional, but with an open mind to trust Ive's eye for beauty in design, and go with Ive's call for the externals, knowing and trusting that Ive has nailed it and everyone will love it, even if it has to grow on them. Imagine that!

Because yes, function must come before form. But form is what makes it pop, makes it beautiful, makes it a delight to hold, touch, look at, and use. Form gives it soul. Function before form, but not without form. Wonderfully functional devices, paired with extraordinary form, is what has made Apple what it is. It is what no other tech company has been able to match in the entire history of tech. Function and form.

 

[Playfoot]

Like all things, there is a balance. Passion versus pedestrian. Form versus function.

At this moment in time, I believe Apple is becoming too pedestrian, not paying attention to details, beginning to make too many compromises. The new MacBook Pro is a case in point. Some good, but also bad.

 

[Eorlas]

$25M to move a dozen trees and put up a tent. This is probably the same guy who came up with the $10,000 Watch Edition.

He left in 2019 and since then, we've seen iPhones with bigger batteries and MacBooks with usable keyboards and practical I/O.

after we already had adapters that rendered HDMI pointless. yet cant even get a proper HDMI 2.1 port.

the internals are impressive. the additional ports just make the device unnecessarily thicker for placating those who cant think enough to realize they didnt even get something useful.

 

[ahurst]

It's definitely not minimalistic. It's chunky, clunky and bloated. It looks like it was designed by committee. It's definitely not "ugly" compared to the PC comparisons but it's one of the ugliest devices Apple has ever made.

...can you explain this a bit more? Coming from a 2011 ThinkPad to the 2021 14” MBP (and a 2007 Dell Latitude before that), I’m struggling to imagine how you could make the design of the new MBP any more minimalist apart from removing the notch. The only text is on the bottom of the device, it’s pretty much all aluminum and black so there’s no color to remove. Are you talking about the HDMI port and SD card slot? Given that people rarely look closely at the sides of their computer unless trying to fit something to a port, I’m not sure that really counts.

 

[SlaveToSwift]

You know there is this tiny little thing called a "Global Supply Chain Disruption" right?

Hmm, somehow Apple's longest backorders in last two years only happen now, and only with their newest products? The M1 MacBook Air and MacBook Pros shipped almost instantaneously (and in higher volumes).

 

[SlaveToSwift]

Who cares?
I use Mac Pro for work, do you think I might be interested in anything about the Mac mini?

They don’t even consider those business.

Sales record? Junk.

Thousands of junk lawsuits crumbling in the hands of shoppers, just to get us running Windows, more ****.

But on the other hand, who exalts Intel junk and insults Ive what is it but a Wintel fanboy? That’s the point. And that’s what Apple is, happy with shareholders, happy with you, happy with everyone.

I'm happy too when I see the authorities sanctioning Apple, he deserves it to the end. Everyone is as happy as you can see,buddy. ??

Leave Tim Apple out of it, pal.

 

[44267547]

somehow Apple's longest backorders in last two years only happen now, and only with their newest products?

Unless you’re suggesting something otherwise, then provide a source showing differently. Because it appears almost every other manufacturer is pretty much experiencing shortages in every other industry, Literally. But let’s somehow make it seem like Apple has some type of ulterior motive with their ‘new products’.

Think about it for a minute. The tech industry was severely back-logged, because of China’s inconsistent fluctuation with manufacturing.

 

[downpour]

Apple is still making lots of bad design choices long after Mr Ive’s departure. I’m don’t think we can put all the blame on his shoulders, as product design would always have been influenced by several different teams across the company from technical to marketing.

 

[bushman4]

Johnny Ives was a great asset to Apple. His designs, Ideas, and position at Apple speak as to whom he was
Whether Steve Jobs passing was an opportunity to move on he’ll never say. In any case new blood brings new ideas

 

[dannys1]

...can you explain this a bit more? Coming from a 2011 ThinkPad to the 2021 14” MBP (and a 2007 Dell Latitude before that), I’m struggling to imagine how you could make the design of the new MBP any more minimalist apart from removing the notch. The only text is on the bottom of the device, it’s pretty much all aluminum and black so there’s no color to remove. Are you talking about the HDMI port and SD card slot? Given that people rarely look closely at the sides of their computer unless trying to fit something to a port, I’m not sure that really counts.

I mean compared to a ThinkPad the thing is like a high class work of art.

For Apple though it looks dated, it looks like a 2009 MacBook Pro - people wanted function over form though and they've got it in droves.

 

[chucker23n1]

I mean compared to a ThinkPad the thing is like a high class work of art.

For Apple though it looks dated, it looks like a 2009 MacBook Pro - people wanted function over form though and they've got it in droves.

It does look reminiscent of the original, pre-Unibody MBP. Not very stylish. But a functional workhorse.

 

[Virinprew]

Ive should start a new computer company. I'd be the first in line.

The store’s width will probably be 1’ thin.

 

[jakebrosy]

I’ve watched a lot of YouTube reviews about the Studio, and the one thing that I haven’t seen anywhere is that the system runs hot. No matter how hard the reviewer stressed it the temperature didn’t go very high at all. Usually not as high as Apple reported in its March product announcement when they were showing how fast the Ultra versions were. The other thing most reviewers note is that they aren’t getting the speed increases with the Studio that Apple said they got, but that’s a separate issue for people editing 8 or more 4K or 8k videos streams simultaneously with graphics and sound overlays before those speed problems even start to show up and I am definitely not someone in need of that level of performance.

Heat does not seem to be a problem at all with any Apple Silicone series computer. You might think it’s ugly but I don’t think anyone is have thermal throttling problems. They are having ‘the compiling time isn’t scaling so that spending twice as much on a Studio Ultra cuts your editing time to 1/2 the time that a Studio Max takes to do the same work’.

I can vouch for the cooling capabilities of the Studio. We have 3 of them in varying configurations and have absolutely wailed on them trying to find a cooling limitation. So far we’ve been able to max the fans out on the base model with a multi-8K multi-effects DaVinci render but none of the components reduced frequency to manage temps. The Ultra? We haven’t been able to put a dent in it. We probably could dream something up to find a limitation but that test would be FAR outside the bounds of any work we routinely perform.

Anyone who’s kvetching about fans and temps on these machines needs to be muted. They’re just trying to stir up poop.

 

[Abazigal]

The book will likely be like every other take out there criticising Apple. Getting some facts right, while totally missing the point.

 

[Yaboze]

I think Ive set in place what things could look and be like from an aesthetic for Apple. The aluminum design has been copied across the board.

You can tell they are starting to deviate from that though, possibly in the wrong direction. The new macbooks are great bezel and ports wise, but that notch and darkness around the keyboard isn't as pleasing as the 2012 design.

Like what was already said, there has to be a balance. If you go too thin, you lose ports or battery life (laptop or phone). The Apple Magic Mouse is the most uncomfortable mouse I have ever tried. It's really bad. It looks great in a picture, but it's usability is terrible.

I like Ive's designs but if he has his way, we'd have fragile, paper thin laptops with no ports or battery life.

 

[emulator]

Plan and simple.. Cook isn't a visionary.. and Jobs was. If you don't have driving force (or respect) for a person that can see on the level you do or create.. you have to move on.

Exactly, Jobs was a visionary arrogant prick while Cook is just an arrogant prick.

 

[ksec]

Actually, it was exactly the opposite of what you were saying that’s been reported.
Apparently, Apple’s maps contract with google allowed for one more year of Google maps on the iPhone, meaning up through 2013 and including iOS6.
It was Scott who pushed Apple to just go ahead and make their own as fast as possible just to ditch Google, even before they had to.
After it came out and it was terrible, he refused to sign an apology letter, wanting to take an “antenna gate” style approach to the whole event. Basically a Steve Jobs type “you’re using it wrong, just deal with it” type thing.
And that’s why he was let go, and apparently the people inside Apple, these colleagues that you said he was defending, celebrated his downfall because he was just that insufferable.
Apparently without Steve there to moderate, Scott pretty much got along with no one, was hated by most, and couldn’t even be in the same room with some including Ive.
The difference between Steve and Scott was that Steve could inspire people. Sure he was ruthless, but overall people that worked with him have positive thoughts about him.
Scott was the opposite. He was just hated by everyone, he was pompous, unlikable, overly political, and thought very highly of himself.
Even Tony Fidel, the man responsible for the iPod, said that “he got what he deserved.”
Also, it’s quite interesting that almost a decade later, no other tech companies have tried scooping up Scott. I wonder why that could be…

Ever wonder why it was not reported to what I wrote?

But thank you for the reply. It just shows how well the Apple PR machine has been working.

 

[EdT]

I can vouch for the cooling capabilities of the Studio. We have 3 of them in varying configurations and have absolutely wailed on them trying to find a cooling limitation. So far we’ve been able to max the fans out on the base model with a multi-8K multi-effects DaVinci render but none of the components reduced frequency to manage temps. The Ultra? We haven’t been able to put a dent in it. We probably could dream something up to find a limitation but that test would be FAR outside the bounds of any work we routinely perform.

Anyone who’s kvetching about fans and temps on these machines needs to be muted. They’re just trying to stir up poop.

From videos and sites I’ve visited no one has found a problem with audible noise or processor temps no matter how hard they’ve stressed a Studio, whether Max or Ultra.

My personal dilemma is do I need a Studio Max, or would waiting for an M2 Max Mini which hopefully will have enough ports and speed? I’m not sure I can justify a $3600 on what is a part time, small quantity, and mostly photo conversation/correction jobs that I do spare time. I do overload my current iMac 27” if I RAW convert a lot of pictures at once or I batch some other corrective photo edits but I’m not usually up against a deadline.

 

[ccsicecoke]

Johnny Ives was a great asset to Apple. His designs, Ideas, and position at Apple speak as to whom he was
Whether Steve Jobs passing was an opportunity to move on he’ll never say. In any case new blood brings new ideas

Johnny Ive - the worst asset ever to Apple since Steve past away. Starting from disastrous IOS 7 and Mac OS X Yosemite UI which has been plaguing apple till today, he drove out Scott Forstall who is the real successor of Steve Job's UI philosophy.

 

[Tozovac]

This is my biggest concern for Apple since Jony Ive's departure actually. That Apple may end up being content to simply give users what they want, and not focus enough to creating what they think users want.

Here we agree. Apple/Jony/whomever are pretty great at coming up with creating what they think users want.

Except when they're not.

 

[Tozovac]

Of course they do and manufacturers still sell microUSB. To the people who don't care about tech and mindlessly buy random widgets online, that may be fine, but most of us are tech enthusiasts. I refuse to buy anything that still requires microUSB. For USB A gadgets, a dongle is fine. We've had to contend with MacBooks with USB-C only for 5+ years now. What does a sudden reversal actually do?

PS I was being facetious. I have many (and continue to buy) items with USB-A whose speed of operation is certainly not limited by the port/cable.

Johnny Ive - the worst asset ever to Apple since Steve past away. Starting from disastrous IOS 7 and Mac OS X Yosemite UI which has been plaguing apple till today, he drove out Scott Forstall who is the real successor of Steve Job's UI philosophy.

Like many tools, assets, personnel...he was a great asset when managed/controlled properly.

When given more or un-reigned-in power, some weaknesses shown thru. He started giving hardware and software equivalents as useful (or confounding) as lovefrom website, and sometimes as approachable, fun, and inviting (or confounding) as his barren Christmas tree-scape.

PS I approve of your sig file. MMGA! MMGA!

 

[GaryPDX]

Nutty obsession with thinness and related silliness that made products worse to use, including unreliable, was big. And I felt like that Apple Watch marketing face plant was well deserved. Notice all the features that have been brought back and all the crummy designs for items such as MacBook keyboards, and the port takeaways. One bridge too far? Jumped the shark? I was glad he was there until, suddenly, I wasn't.

 

[Tozovac]

Nutty obsession with thinness and related silliness that made products worse to use, including unreliable, was big. And I felt like that Apple Watch marketing face plant was well deserved. Notice all the features that have been brought back and all the crummy designs for items such as MacBook keyboards, and the port takeaways. One bridge too far? Jumped the shark? I was glad he was there until, suddenly, I wasn't.

Now we're dealing with the nutty silliness against bezels that has "bitten back" in the form of notches and pill holes.

Interestingly, unlike weight/thickness solution to a non-problem that came "from high above" that I recall seeing very few users clamor for, unfortunately a lot of the anti-bezel society nuttiness seems to be driven from the bottom-up, from users.

So any of those marching with pitchforks and torches against bezels have no right to complain about notches or pill holes.

 

[spiderman0616]

Here we agree. Apple/Jony/whomever are pretty great at coming up with creating what they think users want.

Except when they're not.

I think this philosophy historically works with just about every Apple product except the Macintosh. The years of Macs with TouchBars were a master class in what things NOT to mess with on a laptop, especially one marketed to "pros": keyboard durability, keyboard layout, and ports that content creators still need daily.

As far as the chassis itself, I prefer it over the the designs of the last several years. Back in the old days, before I was even a Mac user yet, my wife's MacBooks always made me jealous because of how solid and durable they were. These new MacBook Pros not only look like those old models, they FEEL like them too. And the pictures do make the 14" model look a lot chunkier than it really feels in real life. (The 16" too, but to a lesser extent.)

macOS is supposed to be the overarching, unifying software/hardware platform at Apple. All other products are built from its framework. It has felt downright strange to me in the last few years that the Intel models were so lackluster and poorly designed. These new models feel more like the old battle axe MacBooks that lasted years and years and never seemed to slow down.