Airbnb and ClassPass Claim Apple Wrongly Demanded Commission on Sales of Virtual Classes

[MacBH928]

No... But you can make your app free so you don't even need a code. If the initial purchase is done through the vendors website, so they process the payment, they create the account on their servers, they handle all problems associated with the purchase. Once that is done, they can tell them to go to the App Store and download the free app, enter your credentials, and no money goes to Apple. Does that not sound fair enough? Apple gets nothing even though they provided all the tools for them to develop the App. Their are millions of Apps that already do this.

This dispute is about some developers wanting their cake and eat it too. They feel its inconvenient for them to spend advertising dollars to steer people to their website and then handle everything. Its much easier if Apple does everything for them and complain about how they don't want to pay.

"enter their credentials" so they have to signup for an account. I really don't want an account for every app I use, I would rather get some sort of a serial code to unlock it just like how it always have been. VPN provider mullvad has a similar way, they give you an account number which works like social security number. You pay to that account and download the app for free and "login" using that number. Its basically a serial code.

 

[genovelle]

I cannot walk into a mall and teach classes for profit and expect to NOT pay some kind of rent. Apple fronts the significant cost to develop and maintain the app store, issue automatic updates, maintain security, litigate complaints and deliver consistent service. On top of that Apple is bringing a world of customers to these struggling businesses. So I think Apple is very much in the right to expect compensation from businesses profiting off of their infrastructure. The terms of conditions were agreed to by the businesses. And as another user put it, there's a Google alternative if they do not wish to pay to use the Apple Store. Or they can write their own web app and go it alone. Business is business-- not charity. Apple has to make money on this thing.

And web apps work on Apple’s platform.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

Candy crush made a killing. People want to develop because they have a hope, dream and hopefully talent. Doesn't guarantee success. But the app store by my anecdotal opinion is considered a lucrative market.

Agree with you on that. So I guess 30% of Candy Crush success is Apple doing. I wonder what would be the stake of Thomas Edison.

I think people are missing the plot here. One in two Americans have at least one iOS device. With business moving even more to digital workflows, from remote learning, health, law ... you name it, the Apple Store its not a Store, but a gateway to access these Americans, including getting payed. Yes, there are ways to go around it, but that is it, a way to go around it. Meaning its not as direct has it is in other platforms such as the Web.

This has been observed as a issue of competition. It’s not really about that. It’s about the idea that one has a choice. When does not considering that no digital services have a say on the devices their customers uses, well none but Apple, Google, Microsoft or Amazon. So if 50% of your customer are likely to be on some platform you have to be there, there is no choice of digital business enterpreneurs but either pay or get around the rules and make it more complicated. There is no innovation here, its just Policy.

I‘m absolutely thrilled with Apple success on the device and OS business and I like Apple Music. But their policy on pair with the curretnt market conditions are monopolistic. To be monopolistic, or having a monopoly is not the same as absense of competition. In fact, one of its symptoms are extracting value out of things that aren’t theirs to extract, which in my view they are doing with the 30% shared revenue policy.

 

[Altivec88]

and what you are failing to understand is that Apple created their own success. Just because one in two Americans "CHOOSE" iOS devices, with these known rules, does not change that fact. It is not your God given right to force a company to work for nothing or devalue the billions they invested and millions of risks they took to reach this point. I am sure if it was your own company, where you did all the work to be a success, that you wouldn't appreciate people saying its now a "gateway" and you should no longer have a say in what you accomplished.

Isn't any store a gateway to shopping. almost one in every one American buys their stuff from sort of retailer. Why should that store get anything when I buy my chocolate bar there. Its not like they had anything to do with making that Chocolate bar. If Apple is forced to cap their profit, I expect every retailer to have the exact same rules.

As you mentioned there are other choices for both users and developers if they want to change that gateway to something else. If it's so easy and cheaper for Candy Crush to take risks and invest billions to develop a platform and successfully convince 1 in every 2 Americans to buy into it so they can sell their game, then go for it, its a free country. or they can take no risks and just worry about making a game. I think they chose right and made a boat load of money. I guess it bothers people, that Apple made some too. Just wondering if you guys feel the same way after buying things from every other retailer too.

 

[Nuno Lopes]

and what you are failing to understand is that Apple created their own success.

Nope. I don’t think anyone has any difficulty understanding, accepting and even sheeting Apple success.

This has nothing to do with God, these are issues of man. But it does seam that Success is your God.

Devalue? What do you mean? How come not considering that 30% of say Candy Crush success, your God, is down to Apple, is devaluing the company? I think the light of your God is blinding your judgement on the matter. Say you want to to give remote classes of, heck say physical exercise, say therapy ... in what manner is entitled to collect 30% in cash of other enterprises successes? Devices and OS that these customers have bough for hundreds if not more than a thousand dollars, were Apple value and Success actual is ...?

You are using Straw Man arguments with claims like “God given right” whatever. I think Apple should get payed for its services for what they are. And definitely they aren’t 30% revenue share of all digital business passing by their Gateway for services you pay heck not even a 10% of that for similar features (digital economics are no way the same as analog, not even close). That is only possible due to the combination set up by Apple Policy.

PS: By the way. The stores that you are comparing with don’t sell remote education, therapy, lawyer consultation ... so on and so forth ... these things are going digital, the entire services Industry is going digital, remote everything, either live or pre recorded. The App Store sells and serves Apps, that is it. When you buy something on the stores you compared with, you buy the thing they sell and that is it, the App (call it a chocolate bar or an Xbox One, heck why not an iPhone or Apple TV).

Probably you have bought yourself say an Xbox One or an iPhone on the say Best Buy. Now imagine the Store demanding 30% revenue of everything that goes through the Xbox to you, not only you but one in two Americans? Microsoft would be happy. Heck Apple would be thrilled sharing their 30% revenue on devices sold on their chains. Heck why stop with Best Buy, do that with every shop. Now imagine this with your education, health care, ...., everything that gets served to you in digital form.

This has nothing to do with Apple success at 30% shared revenue, for that I’m absolutely sure! If everyone in the value chain thought that way, I all business would be in dept with each other, no money would be circulating. Imagine energy companies, oil companies, water companies ... all crucial things to have a business thinking this way. Heck, Apple would not even have existed.

The 30% revenue share for what it does and considering the market shape it’s INSANE! It’s totally down to an artifice of reasoning. Pretty sure of that.

If this is allowed to proceed, I’m pretty sure that Apple Store earnings will go from record break to record break and value will keep being funneled until everything is owned by a few. Provided of course, that the other business that the App Store leverages on, the iPhone, iPad and Mac sales keep steady ... and they will. Because Apple its amazing at that.

 

[Altivec88]

You are naive if you think Best Buy doesn't get a cut of everything they sell in their store. On top of the Xbox one you bought at Best Buy, if you buy any games, peripherals etc. at Best Buy, they also get a cut of those too. If you buy those games online at Microsofts store, Best Buy gets nothing. It is up to Microsoft to decide if they want to sell games at Best Buy for the sole purpose of getting Best Buy's audience (Best Buy provides nothing else). If its a digital world like you say, there is no point for Microsoft to give up that money to best buy, they should just sell games in their own gateway only. Even better, they should do what's happening here. They should just complain and say Best Buy does nothing so Microsoft is entitled to sell their games at best buy without Best Buy getting anything.

Apple's store is no different. If you want to sell it on your own gateway, or your own website, go right ahead, Apple gets nothing. You want to sell it in Apple's store, then you pay their price. There are many options and some software is only sold on Android. If developers do not feel its worth paying Apple's price, they should choose this option. Enough of them do that, then buyers stop buying iOS due to lack of software. Thats how markets shift and the way its always been decided.

My reference to God like is that you want to change the rules after the fact. You want to dictate what a company should make. The number is irrelevant. 80%, 30%, 10%, 4% it doesn't matter what it is. I am of the position, that I don't want government dictating what companies profits are. In other words I like freedoms rather than dictatorships. The market has always decided these things. If Apple charged 80%, nobody would develop for them and the market would shift somewhere else. Clearly the 30% was worth a few of the developers time over the past decade.

And yes, I think Apple making 30% is reasonable. Best Buy does nothing. On top of dealing with all the things that go along with running a store, Apple at least builds and maintains the tools that developers use to create their software. They also have to continuously monitor the security of such apps and kill them if they impose a threat to their platform. Apple has do this for the free Apps too. In other words paid apps subsidize the work they have to do for free apps. This cuts down the 30% you see by a considerable amount when you average it over their entire library.

So to flip things around on developers, do you think Apple deserves any money for the work they have to do and problems they have to deal with on free apps? So should free apps be abolished and a transaction fee be put into place?

 

[Nuno Lopes]

You are naive if you think Best Buy doesn't get a cut of everything they sell in their store.

I don’t think like that. So I’m not naive.

Apple's store is no different. If you want to sell it on your own gateway, or your own website, go right ahead, Apple gets nothing. You want to sell it in Apple's store, then you pay their price.

Nope. It is indeed very different. Picking the Xbox example, the equivalent would be if we could sell our digital services in App choosing whatever payment system the business saw fit. That is what happens with Xbox. You buy the Xbox to Best Buy and than can buy the games in the device to Microsoft or whatever other store. That is what happens when I buy an Xbox, Apple TV or whatever.

An App in the App Store is indeed a device. The device that you have built and invested whatever, from thousands to millions of dollars. One of the Core devices in the digital business service.

In other words, imagine Best Buy with same rules as the App Store, You would need to go Best Buy to buy whatever content you wanted on the Xbox you have bought in their stores. Not only Xbox, think Apple TV, Smart TVs or whatever. If it was like this it would be the same! But it’s far from it.

The device/app is sold by the App Store, ok fine. That is where the thing should stop. Now if the customer already bought the device:app, took it home / downloaded it to his device, and then not allowing them to pay me for the service in the App that I have built, as my customers see fit for services that go beyond the App Store service is invasive and abusive.

There are many options and some software is only sold on Android. If developers do not feel its worth paying Apple's price, they should choose this option. Enough of them do that, then buyers stop buying iOS due to lack of software.

Nope. Digital businesses don’t have any control over which devices their customers choose. Is up to the customer. This is as it should be!!!! If you have a digital business service, it does not require much math to figure out that you can expect one in two Americans to be using an iPhone an iPad or both, you need to be wherever your customer are. If your customers are using Apple devices, you need to be there, Samsung, LG, Motorola, Microsoft ... whatever. Its not your choice, it’s you customers choice. I’m sure digital service are glad for Apple that my customers are choosing Apple

So to flip things around on developers, do you think Apple deserves any money for the work they have to do and problems they have to deal with on free apps? So should free apps be abolished and a transaction fee be put into place?

Stop with the Straw Man argument. I can do that to ... observe ... : So to flip things around on Apple, do you think devs deserves any money for the work they have to do and problems they have to deal on their service? Because ear a lot about free apps ... what about free iPhones and iPads? Oh no that is Apple business, right ... apps and digital devices is someone else’s business.

Ridiculous form argumentation isn’t it? Why? Because this is not the proposition being discussed. We already agreed that both Apple and Development should get payed for what they do. Now Apple does not do or provide what digital business do, neither contributed or invested in their business to require 30% revenue share in anything they sell or provide in the apps they have built, customer bought and took home.

One more thing ..

So should free apps be abolished and a transaction fee be put into place?

Don’t know. If Best Buy wants to offer the Xbox’s they have in the wherehouse for free its their business. Same for Apple. Now Best Buy requiring Apple or Microsoft to offer them for free that is entering their business. Worst, requiring them to give up 30% of their revenue on Xbox or Apple TV so that Best Buy can offer other devices for free at their discretion is the same as forcing me to bet against myself.

I’m sure Best Buy would love that deal. Giving Xbox’s for free at MS expense attracts customers with minimal investment. For Apple is even better, attracts people to buy their devices ... never saw Apple give them for free $$$$$$

To finish this off. This would not be a market problem if not for the case that one in two Americans have at least one iOS device. A distinct revenue source that App Store strongly leverages on for its customers.

No wonder the App Store is reaching Miracle revenues (Tim’s words in the hearing). Who gets dazzled about that given the iOS market share, all services going digital only and finally the draconian App Store policy is nothing but a foul.

 

[Altivec88]

Nope. It is indeed very different. Picking the Xbox example, the equivalent would be if we could sell our digital services in App choosing whatever payment system the business saw fit. That is what happens with Xbox. You buy the Xbox to Best Buy and than can buy the games in the device to Microsoft or whatever other store. That is what happens when I buy an Xbox, Apple TV or whatever.

No. The exact equivalent is you wanting to sell your xbox or playstation game at Best Buy or their respective online stores for free and then have your own payment system embedded in your game. The sole purpose is to circumvent paying them because you feel you did all the work and what they provided to build up the platform is meaningless.

BTW: That is not allowed on those platforms either.

An App in the App Store is indeed a device. The device that you have built and invested whatever, from thousands to millions of dollars. One of the Core devices in the digital business service.

I don't call software a device but I will go along with it. The issue is not your investment. You are being rewarded for your investment by charging a fee that you get to decide that covers all your costs plus makes you a profit. The issue is your device can not be built unless you start from someone elses base device that they spends billions on to develop and maintain. If that is inconsequential to you, then it should be easy to do it all yourself.

There is nothing new here. Before you even decide to invest in your app, you knew the rules. If its not a viable plan, then don't do it or go somewhere else. No different than any other business. I am not in the software business but I have many expenses that I hate paying that have nothing to do with the physical product we sell, but they are an expenses none the less. I don't go around whining about it. We just take those expenses into consideration when pricing our product.

Nope. Digital businesses don’t have any control over which devices their customers choose. Is up to the customer. This is as it should be!!!! If you have a digital business service, it does not require much math to figure out that you can expect one in two Americans to be using an iPhone an iPad or both, you need to be wherever your customer are. If your customers are using Apple devices, you need to be there, Samsung, LG, Motorola, Microsoft ... whatever. Its not your choice, it’s you customers choice. I’m sure digital service are glad for Apple that my customers are choosing Apple

Exactly right. Apples decisions is what created the digital business that people decided to support. I didn't buy an iPhone because of your app. I choose an Apple device because it is a walled garden and at least attempts to offer some sort of a secure environment. When I pay for something I feel safe knowing Apple is handling it and if there is a problem I will get my money back. I don't want a million in app payment systems where I have to enter my credit card information on some unprotected server in China. In other words you want to force Apple to become the uncontrollable Wild West of payment processing.

Android has decided on a more open approach with multiple stores, side loading apps, etc. and for more than 50% of the people, that is the better option and what they prefer. All I am saying as a Customer is that I don't want the option I prefer to disappear. I respect any developer that feels these rules are too stringent for them and goes elsewhere but don't force something on me that I don't want.

Stop with the Straw Man argument. I can do that to ... observe ... : So to flip things around on Apple, do you think devs deserves any money for the work they have to do and problems they have to deal on their service? Because ear a lot about free apps ... what about free iPhones and iPads? Oh no that is Apple business, right ... apps and digital devices is someone else’s business.

Where did I ever say developers should work for free or not be compensated for their work. The 30% apple charges is a built in expense just like any other expense they have. The developer gets to set the price so I don't see whatyour issue is. On the contrary you are saying that Apple should provide their infrastructure for free and/or have the government step in to set a maximum percentage (in otherwords a dictatorship). As long as you are okay with the government stepping into any business including your own and control the percentage that you make on all your products.

Ridiculous form argumentation isn’t it? Why? Because this is not the proposition being discussed. We already agreed that both Apple and Development should get payed for what they do. Now Apple does not do or provide what digital business do, neither contributed or invested in their business to require 30% revenue share in anything they sell or provide in the apps they have built, customer bought and took home.

So you agree that Apple needs to be compensated, you just feel 30% is too much and you want the government to step into a free market and dictate the amount they make. I understand your position but I am strongly opposed to government intervention especially if its just picking on one company. If a law gets formed on this, it should apply to every company. ie I should be able to make a game or yoga app for playstation or xbox, sell it in their online store for free and then have my own in game payment system to collect payments and subscriptions where Sony and Microsoft get nothing or the 2% the government and you state is okay.