Airport Extreme Air Disk, and 801.11n Upgrades $4.99 [Update]

[Chef Medeski]

Actually, the idea that you think pricing is simply some multiple of the cost to manufacture is patently ridiculous.

Yes, pricing is not a multiple of the cost to manufacture. The cost to manufacture should be a certain percentage of the final pricing. So along side development, research, bureaucratic, adminstrative all those fees, you get to a final price. Generally, I'm not sure about the computer industry, but in manufacturing a product is supposed to cost 10% of what you sell it for. The idea here is proportions. Its not that the cost has to be 10x what it costs to manufacture but it should generally be to create a well proportioned cost to profit ratio. So, if the manufacture cost increase the final price should increase. Maybe not 10x but atleast to cover the cost of the product.

 

[flipperfeet]

REALLY!?!?! Speed limiters is that what those things are called that limit speeds? Thank you sir. I never knew.

You are getting 100% of the capabilites of the power plant and transmission. Its not like its controlling your revs to a certain RPM. Its controlling your speed. Now before bashing me, think about it. Ok. If you got a V8 but they only allowed you to rev to 4000 RPM for no reason.... well that would be odd. It would be cutting off performance at every second of your drive, not allowing you to utilize 100% of the capabilites. Now if you are talking about speed. Whens the last time you went 150. Personally Ive only been 150 once. I really see no reason to go that fast when I cant legally be even CLOSE to the speed limit. But irrelevant. You get 100% of the capabilites of this car up until 150 mph. Yes or no?

Is any part of the engine, transmission, chassic not used to its fullest under 150 MPH?

And please sir tell me. Is speed a hardware purchasable upgrade? Can I go down to my local mechanic at purchase speed? Can you install 150 MPH in there for me, I dont like the current 140 MPH I have installed?

N = more bandwidth which translates into speed of transfer you are arguing both sides. I'm done. you want to whine about your choices then drink from that cup of bile all you want.

 

[Chef Medeski]

"No Cost" is a false statement. Someone has to write the code, someone has to write the installer, someone has to QA and debug the firmware, someone has to pay to distribute it, and someone will have to provide the customer support when there are problems, in this instance it is Apple.

The law and legality has nothing to do with the argument as presented. The argument is, "If someone buys something they know to be limited, are they entitled to the full potential at no additional cost." I argue they are not, you get what you pay for as stated in the original agreement.

Well... no where does it state that you get what you pay for. You pay for what the manufacture puts in. Thats realistically how it works. The manufacturer doesn't have to disclose what is in the product. A manufacturer discloses what is inside a product because a consumer wants to know. And then they have an obligation to deliver atleast that much. Since anything above would still give them the same thing. Regardless though. Why don't manufacturers give you more than they usually say? Sure it makes fun surprises, but they have be advertisingly competitive and they always want to maximize what they have. So, underestimating their numbers would be a bad way to beat the competition. So lets review:

If a company discloses their components, they must meet or be better than that otherwise its false advertising.

They aren't obligated to disclose their components, but generally its what the consumer want.

And usually if companies do disclose their components they don't understate.

You pay for whats inside. You bought what they told you is inside.

 

[Chef Medeski]

N = more bandwidth which translates into speed of transfer you are arguing both sides. I'm done. you want to whine about your choices then drink from that cup of bile all you want.

No reason to cry. But... this effectively the difference even though technically its not the same since. n is a different protocol. While g works with all n routers. If they made "n" only routers then you would see a remarkable difference in these analogies. Yet, since all N routers include G, it doesnt make as stark as a difference. If they did you wouldnt be arguing with me. Now lets see if we can figure this one out:

And its not only bandwidth. I find more important in n is distance.

And the difference here. Is that this equivalent to putting a slower motor in. The BMW has a speed limiter which stops the top limits of your speed. N is faster at every distance including distances where G doesnt exist. So its not pure speed alone but faster speed everywhere at everytime not just the top speeds. Do you see the difference between a speed limiter and just less horsepower?

Speed limiter is what was in the BMW.

Less horsepower would be closer to what is the problem here since it affects every Rev and Speed (equivalent to transfer loads and distance, respectively).

If it was a speed limiter. It wouldnt be 54 MPBS but 50MBPS. Which would seem ridiculous. Yet, this is totally different ballgame.

See the difference?

 

[rxse7en]

I just want to know where I can pay for and download the activator! I have a dlink n-router and two macbook pros and want to test that throughput now!
NOW I TELLS YA! Hopefully the n-capable cards will play nice with the D-link n-capable router!

B

 

[matticus008]

In which case, Apple will be absolutely DELIGHTED to hear that you, flipperfeet, are volunteering to pay for security updates and anything else you get "for free" via Software Update.

I have Steve Jobs on hold - can I get your serial # please?

Everyone pays for the updates which aren't released for free. It seems to me that his argument is that you buy a product with the features and specifications provided by the manufacturer. If you get any more than that, it's because they chose to give you something better, but they're by no means obligated to do so. There could be a 200MHz faster processor in my computer than I paid for that was intentionally disabled by the manufacturer because it failed the quality testing for the faster rating. Should I insist that the manufacturer send me an update enabling more than I bought?

Did you pay for an n-capable card? No. You bought a computer that was advertised for b/g wireless. You got what was promised to you, and now they're offering you more for $5 (or free with the purchase of an Airport Extreme) instead of charging you the same price initially and asking you to buy a new Airport card later on for $100.

This, of course, has nothing to do with security updates, which are provided for software products free of charge for a certain support period. Fixes for problems in software are part of a different ballgame entirely.

Well... no where does it state that you get what you pay for. You pay for what the manufacture puts in.

and yet...

You bought what they told you is inside.

You get what you were told you were getting, and anything above that is effectively free, because you can't argue that the retail price would have been set lower without it. That's the ONLY part of marketing protected by law. Company A advertises a product with specifications x, y, and z for price C. You must be delivered that much for that price. That's it. Anything else is purely academic conjecture and irrelevant, unless the written rules you're looking for are something other than laws.

 

[Chef Medeski]

Everyone pays for the updates which aren't released for free. It seems to me that his argument is that you buy a product with the features and specifications provided by the manufacturer. If you get any more than that, it's because they chose to give you something better, but they're by no means obligated to do so. There could be a 200MHz faster processor in my computer than I paid for that was intentionally disabled by the manufacturer because it failed the quality testing for the faster rating. Should I insist that the manufacturer send me an update enabling more than I bought?

Did you pay for an n-capable card? No. You bought a computer that was advertised for b/g wireless. You got what was promised to you, and now they're offering you more for $5 (or free with the purchase of an Airport Extreme) instead of charging you the same price initially and asking you to buy a new Airport card later on for $100.

This, of course, has nothing to do with security updates, which are provided for software products free of charge for a certain support period. Fixes for problems in software are part of a different ballgame entirely.

What about prices for costs? A n-capable card cost more even if they only give you b/g.

 

[matticus008]

What about prices for costs? A n-capable card cost more even if they only give you b/g.

Says who? You're assuming that's the case, but you don't know that the manufacturer installed pre-n hardware on a number of lines and spread the cost of development to do so. Massive scaling is easier than developing a single product to bear the burden.

This is why processor manufacturers "overbuild" GPUs and CPUs. It's cheaper to build them all the same and then partially disable them to create the "budget" products--you don't have to do R&D for two separate products, you don't need tooling for two different production lines, and you don't need engineers to learn more than one design.

You're not paying for the sum of the parts. You're paying one price for one product. Picking it apart for analysis doesn't mean anything since you can't change the individual components and you can't know the actual price paid by Apple.

 

[sblasl]

Actually, that is exactly what it is called, a "Rev Limiter" firmware upgrade. It removes the limitation placed on the engine by BMW. There is also a transmission firmware upgrade but I forget what it is called and & how to explain it.

REALLY!?!?! Speed limiters is that what those things are called that limit speeds? Thank you sir. I never knew.

You are getting 100% of the capabilites of the power plant and transmission. Its not like its controlling your revs to a certain RPM. Its controlling your speed. Now before bashing me, think about it. Ok. If you got a V8 but they only allowed you to rev to 4000 RPM for no reason.... well that would be odd. It would be cutting off performance at every second of your drive, not allowing you to utilize 100% of the capabilites. Now if you are talking about speed. Whens the last time you went 150. Personally Ive only been 150 once. I really see no reason to go that fast when I cant legally be even CLOSE to the speed limit. But irrelevant. You get 100% of the capabilites of this car up until 150 mph. Yes or no?

Is any part of the engine, transmission, chassic not used to its fullest under 150 MPH?

And please sir tell me. Is speed a hardware purchasable upgrade? Can I go down to my local mechanic at purchase speed? Can you install 150 MPH in there for me, I dont like the current 140 MPH I have installed?

 

[matticus008]

Actually, that is exactly what it is called, a "Rev Limiter" firmware upgrade. It removes the limitation placed on the engine by BMW. There is also a transmission firmware upgrade but I forget what it is called and & how to explain it.

It's both a speed limiter and a rev limiter, though the rev limiter is more for engine health than for enforcing a top speed. The speed limiter is sometimes called a "governor," for those who enjoy their techno-trivia.

If we have to use this ridiculous car analogy, what's going on here is a high performance engine is designed and built, but it requires engine timings that haven't quite been worked out. They opt to reduce the horsepower, torque, and fuel consumption and retard the timing, so that they can ship the engines using known "safe" values.

Later on, when they work out the correct timings, they issue a new engine computer that will improve the engine. This takes it from 250hp to 400hp, doubles the torque, and substantially improves performance. It's basically the same hardware, but thanks to the new computer, it's a new beast. That company COULD NOT ship the updated computers for free (even if it wanted to) after 2002. However, by charging for the new computers, they can account for the material change to their sales specifications.

 

[Chef Medeski]

Says who? You're assuming that's the case, but you don't know that the manufacturer installed pre-n hardware on a number of lines and spread the cost of development to do so. Massive scaling is easier than developing a single product to bear the burden.

This is why processor manufacturers "overbuild" GPUs and CPUs. It's cheaper to build them all the same and then partially disable them to create the "budget" products--you don't have to do R&D for two separate products, you don't need tooling for two different production lines, and you don't need engineers to learn more than one design.

You're not paying for the sum of the parts. You're paying one price for one product. Picking it apart for analysis doesn't mean anything since you can't change the individual components and you can't know the actual price paid by Apple.

Good point.

 

[Chef Medeski]

It's both a speed limiter and a rev limiter, though the rev limiter is more for engine health than for enforcing a top speed. The speed limiter is sometimes called a "governor," for those who enjoy their techno-trivia.

If we have to use this ridiculous car analogy, what's going on here is a high performance engine is designed and built, but it requires engine timings that haven't quite been worked out. They opt to reduce the horsepower, torque, and fuel consumption and retard the timing, so that they can ship the engines using known "safe" values.

Later on, when they work out the correct timings, they issue a new engine computer that will improve the engine. This takes it from 250hp to 400hp, doubles the torque, and substantially improves performance. It's basically the same hardware, but thanks to the new computer, it's a new beast. That company COULD NOT ship the updated computers for free (even if it wanted to) after 2002. However, by charging for the new computers, they can account for the material change to their sales specifications.

That would be more accurate. Yet thats not the analogy that was given. A governor was spoke off.

But of course its hard to compare the two since computer components cannot be changed merely by running a richer mix. I wish I could just feed my PB more oxygen to get it to go faster, the fans already seem loud enough to suck in enough oxygen to sustain life on mars.

 

[matticus008]

That would be more accurate. Yet thats not the analogy that was given. A governor was spoke off.

But of course its hard to compare the two since computer components cannot be changed merely by running a richer mix. I wish I could just feed my PB more oxygen to get it to go faster, the fans already seem loud enough to suck in enough oxygen to sustain life on mars.

Maybe the answer is an NO2 tank for your computer!

 

[Chef Medeski]

Maybe the answer is an NO2 tank for your computer!

I was hoping just a big ass spoiler would make my powerbook faster.

 

[poppe]

I was hoping just a big ass spoiler would make my powerbook faster.

Heck yeah. That Powerbooik would have so much downforce... oh man... you'd barely be able to pick it up... and maybe on the MBP's where the fan is we could put a coffee can exhaust on the back so it sounds like a weed whacker

 

[MacinDoc]

LOL. Ok so who paid for the card? Apple just swallowed the cost. Forget about the promise made between the customer and the manufacturer. Think about realistically. Sure I thought I was only getting g. But I was paying for n. Whether you disagree or now, and whether I"m honest or not with myself . Since I have a PB I dont see how, but.... neverthless no matter what the consumer pays for all the parts. We dont pay for what they say is in there. We pay for WHAT IS IN THERE.

So I guess everyone who bought a Core Solo computer should go to Intel demanding that Intel enable the second core (since it is on the die, just inactivated). It doesn't cost more to make a Core Duo than a Core Solo, but it does cost more to buy a Core Duo.

The seller is only obligated to provide a minimum of the advertised specs. You can choose to stick with what Apple said it was selling you, at no cost. Alternatively, for a marginal cost that essentially covers the anticipated cost of support (keep in mind that only people wanting to use their Macs at pre-N specs with third-party pre-N routers will need to purchase this), you can choose to upgrade to a higher standard. The choice is yours. It you don't think the upgrade is worth the price, don't buy it...

 

[poppe]

Here's my question and i'm sure its been asked:

If someone has multiple macs and gets the airport extreme. does the airport extreme have a limited number of computers it can open the N feature too? or do you have to buy the CD for another computer and the CD for another and so on...

 

[ReanimationLP]

So I guess everyone who bought a Core Solo computer should go to Intel demanding that Intel enable the second core (since it is on the die, just inactivated). It doesn't cost more to make a Core Duo than a Core Solo, but it does cost more to buy a Core Duo.

Actually, how they make Core Solos, is when only one of the two processors on the die works, and the other one doesnt, they disable the second one, and poof, one Core Solo to go.

 

[Roy Hobbs]

Why is everyone complaining about a $4.99 charge, its $4.99 for gods sake.

If you want it for free order the new Airport Extreme Base Station and you get it for free.

For the life of me I can't understand the big deal of $4.99, sure I would rather not pay it. But its a measily $4.99. Apple doesn't have to enable the card for N but they are for a mere $4.99.

If you don't like it or are too cheap to pay the $4.99 then don't but stop complaining about something so cheap. Its a bit ridiculous

 

[goosnarrggh]

Lets wait a while...
If Apple starts advertising new C2D machines as having their 802.11n capabilities *pre-enabled* and open to use with 3rd party base stations, but doesn't change the price or SKU, then I cry "bull".

However, if Apple changes the SKU (which they've always done in the past when a new hardware feature was made available) and sells these new SKUs with the 802.11n capabilities pre-enabled, I'd be satisfied. (Even if they charge the same amount of money as they used to for the older (but physically identical) machines.)

As well, if Apple continues to keep the same SKU, and continues to lock out the 802.11n hardware (still requiring new post-official-announcement purchasers to pay the $4.99 to unlock it), then I'd also accept the legitimacy of the charge.

Similarly, if Apple incorporates the unlocking utility in the next paid upgrade to MacOS for all machines whose hardware can physically handle it, I'll consider the matter satisfactorily closed.

 

[Chef Medeski]

The seller is only obligated to provide a minimum of the advertised specs. You can choose to stick with what Apple said it was selling you, at no cost.

I completely agree. They are only obliged to give you this much. However, you paid for the n card. Every Core2Duo Mac you now buy will not need the enabler, is the price $5 more? Nope.... now explain me that one. SOX.... yeah it does sux.

 

[Maxx Power]

I completely agree. They are only obliged to give you this much. However, you paid for the n card. Every Core2Duo Mac you now buy will not need the enabler, is the price $5 more? Nope.... now explain me that one. SOX.... yeah it does sux.

That entire SOX thing just another one of those silly benefits to big businesses, they can always advertise something and not deliver it. They can claim the ad was a typo, or have you refer to the fine prints where things "may change without notice" to get away from having to deliver anything promised if necessary to cover their asses, and at the worst, settlement to a class action lawsuit, still cheaper than actually delivering.

On the other hand, as the consumer, do you have that many benefits ? If you bought an item, and after the return period expired, you realize there were things not delivered, or so on and so forth, what can you do ? You'd have to get personally involved, while the big businesses just call up their lawyers.

And at any rate, SOX surely hasn't been ratified by the windows and linux community, it seems. They are always getting new features enabled via firmware updates (bios, routers, even modems and hard drives), cellphones also receive firmware updates to enable new functionality all the time. New drivers are released all the time to enable new features not previously advertised, such as the 802.11n feature. Which doesn't come with a lot of windows n-capable wifi cards (mini pci, pci, PCI-E, or otherwise) and do eventually receive free driver downloads which makes the n functionality available, the question is, why not apple ?

 

[eme jota ce]

OK. The guy from Apple called me back. This was surprising, because they ususally don't do that. The tech guy, ironicly named Steve, said that any computer (intel) with a built-in G card can have it's n feature "activated". This is free when you buy a router, it comes with an "enabler cd". If you are not getting a new router, or if you just want N enabled, you have to pay apple $5 for the CD.

I called Apple (not Steve) and was told that Core Duo (not Core 2 Duo) machines, which have a built-in G card, can not be upgraded or activated to the N standard.

 

[aswitcher]

I called Apple (not Steve) and was told that Core Duo (not Core 2 Duo) machines, which have a built-in G card, can not be upgraded or activated to the N standard.

And this is exactly what it says on the Apple site. I am sure the geeks checked it out because they were the ones who found that the C2Ds had the N option when they first came out.

 

[aswitcher]

Why is everyone complaining about a $4.99 charge, its $4.99 for gods sake.

If you want it for free order the new Airport Extreme Base Station and you get it for free.

For the life of me I can't understand the big deal of $4.99, sure I would rather not pay it. But its a measily $4.99. Apple doesn't have to enable the card for N but they are for a mere $4.99.

If you don't like it or are too cheap to pay the $4.99 then don't but stop complaining about something so cheap. Its a bit ridiculous

Let me know if I am wrong here. but wont you just be able to connect wirelessly to an Apple N network to get the upgrade (like at an Apple store) or must you physically attach via ethernet?